Build Stretched 1-Ton FJ40

[Mike Shull]

If the tcase moves a little and the frame flexes the shaft coming out of carrier bearing will not be pointed at tcase flange, unless that carrier bearing rotates/pivots/articulates, this set up is not right and that tube will separate from the tcase side of the woodlee part. IMO.

Thanks for the concern. I can put a camera on that area and see what happens when it’s flexed. Even though the carrier bearing mount is fixed, it does allow the shaft to move a little, and the other end will allow quite a bit of movement for frame flex.

 

[Mike Shull]

Thanks, DJ, for the awesome CAD designs for the cage!

@DangerNoodle

 

[Ditcherman]

So Im working thru a very similar scenario, and am curious why you would do the cardon at all. I know the tcase will move around a little bit, but the carrier block is welded on the frame. Why a cardon at the case? This type of set up, we shouldnt need a cardon at all, right? Or am I missing something?? Not trying to argue or hi Jack, trying to figure it out too...

Sorry I missed this and just replying!
Please don’t mistake me for someone that knows anything! I’m learning as I go. I’ve got a pretty good feel for mechanical things, but when I learned earlier this summer how driveshafts work, or don’t work and create vibrations and how they actually need opposing angles to negate the speed changes taking place every revolution, my mind was blown and I still have a hard time believing it.
So I’m winging it on my build…

Looking at Mikes diagram I thought his sharp angle was at the tcase and that a double cardon could help. Apparently Tom Woods thinks otherwise, and I would totally trust them just based on one conversation I’ve had with them. They’re gonna be my go-to once I get my stuff figured out.
Speaking of which, I may be in trouble if they say you can’t use a double cardon in a two shaft system. My transfer case is not clocking down due to the front link mounting, the shaft goes straight forward and then needs to turn down ( my assumption with a double cardon) to the diff.
Speaking of which, the first person I called, before Tom Woods, was Jess at High Angle in August, to make that first shaft, and now I really wish he’d answer his phone or a text to let me know where my shaft is….

My real saving grace on this is the fact that it’s a front shaft with lock out hubs. Sure I want it to be right but it’s not full time and that’s gotta be worth something.

 

[Ditcherman]

If the tcase moves a little and the frame flexes the shaft coming out of carrier bearing will not be pointed at tcase flange, unless that carrier bearing rotates/pivots/articulates, this set up is not right and that tube will separate from the tcase side of the woodlee part. IMO.

Everyone I’ve talked to about carrier bearings has indicated that it is a spherical bearing, it rotates in its housing. All the pillow block type bearings I’ve ever worked with are this type to make up for misalignment issues, but that’s mostly on equipment.
Is this not your experience, or the standard for drivelines?

 

[Mike Shull]

Everyone I’ve talked to about carrier bearings has indicated that it is a spherical bearing, it rotates in its housing. All the pillow block type bearings I’ve ever worked with are this type to make up for misalignment issues, but that’s mostly on equipment.
Is this not your experience, or the standard for drivelines?

I am running a sealed double roller bearing and most buggy kits that I have seen run this type or two single roller bearings. I looked into running a carrier bearing housed inside of a rubber isolator like seen on many Toyota rear shafts but I was told that these would get destroyed very quickly in a rock crawling setup on the front shaft.

I found the video below from Busted Knuckle Off Road discussing their recommendations for installing a carrier bearing setup. They state that Spicer recommends a maximum of 8° offset when kicking the upper driveshaft towards the frame, and I am assuming another 8° max towards the lower shaft. They also mount to the frame through a rubber bushing to allow for more movement as @peesalot suggests.

I’d recommend a bit more research than I did initially. I understand not being worried about going high speed in 4x4 but my configuration is not usable. I can’t go above 3-5 mph in 4x4 before a violent vibration starts. Don’t do what I did.

 

[peesalot]

That Woodlee carrier uses wheel bearings, just run the yoke both sides and be done, the tcase can go where it likes, it shouldnt move forward or back but thats a concern as well, don't need load on outputs from frame flex etc....

 

[peesalot]

At 8:17 in the vid he basically says what I said. The vid says they mount their carrier to a bushing so it can move to avoid the failure I described. With the carrier hard mounted as yours it needs the yoke to allow mis alignment.

 

[Mike Shull]

At 8:17 in the vid he basically says what I said. The vid says they mount their carrier to a bushing so it can move to avoid the failure I described. With the carrier hard mounted as yours it needs the yoke to allow mis alignment.

I understand and I also watched that portion a few times. I plan to reconfigure the setup when I address the vibration.

 

[Mike Shull]

I am running a sealed double roller bearing and most buggy kits that I have seen run this type or two single roller bearings. I looked into running a carrier bearing housed inside of a rubber isolator like seen on many Toyota rear shafts but I was told that these would get destroyed very quickly in a rock crawling setup on the front shaft.

I found the video below from Busted Knuckle Off Road discussing their recommendations for installing a carrier bearing setup. They state that Spicer recommends a maximum of 8° offset when kicking the upper driveshaft towards the frame, and I am assuming another 8° max towards the lower shaft. They also mount to the frame through a rubber bushing to allow for more movement as @peesalot suggests.

I’d recommend a bit more research than I did initially. I understand not being worried about going high speed in 4x4 but my configuration is not usable. I can’t go above 3-5 mph in 4x4 before a violent vibration starts. Don’t do what I did.

Update: I connected with WOD today and they also confirmed that I should not have hard-mounted the carrier bearing to the frame since the engine, transmission and transfer case are rubber-mounted. As Peezy pointed out, the hard mount design is only for rigid frames where everything is hard-mounted.

 

[Firemedic831]

Update: I connected with WOD today and they also confirmed that I should not have hard-mounted the carrier bearing to the frame since the engine, transmission and transfer case are rubber-mounted. As Peezy pointed out, the hard mount design is only for rigid frames where everything is hard-mounted.

now I am going to need to get a even bigger hat for Peezy .

 

[peesalot]

Nope, but now we won't have to fix Mike's dline at Rubithon. Get those Xmas specials up before Black Friday.

 

[Zukrider]

Update: I connected with WOD today and they also confirmed that I should not have hard-mounted the carrier bearing to the frame since the engine, transmission and transfer case are rubber-mounted. As Peezy pointed out, the hard mount design is only for rigid frames where everything is hard-mounted.

Side by side rubber mounts are a good compact way to have a bushed mount like that.

 

[Mike Shull]

Side by side rubber mounts are a good compact way to have a bushed mount like that.

Do you mean like this: BKOR BILLET CARRIER BEARING, 1.5"x10 spline shaft KIT - https://bustedknuckleoffroad.com/collections/carrier-bearings/products/bkor-billet-carrier-bearing-with-mount-1-5x10-spline-shaft

 

[Mike Shull]

Nope, but now we won't have to fix Mike's dline at Rubithon. Get those Xmas specials up before Black Friday.

I won’t be able to go to Rubithon. I was reading the tech requirements today and I need a Hi-Lift jack big enough to raise the truck. I assume it means off of the ground. Mine doesn’t come close. Besides, I probably would have broken it doing front wheel burnouts in the neighbors driveway.

 

[cruzinfj1]

I won’t be able to go to Rubithon. I was reading the tech requirements today and I need a Hi-Lift jack big enough to raise the truck. I assume it means off of the ground. Mine doesn’t come close. Besides, I probably would have broken it doing front wheel burnouts in the neighbors driveway.

WHERE ARE THE VIDS?!?!??!?! lol

 

[Zukrider]

I won’t be able to go to Rubithon. I was reading the tech requirements today and I need a Hi-Lift jack big enough to raise the truck. I assume it means off of the ground. Mine doesn’t come close. Besides, I probably would have broken it doing front wheel burnouts in the neighbors driveway.

Hey! We can have a front dig off!

 

[Zukrider]

Do you mean like this: BKOR BILLET CARRIER BEARING, 1.5"x10 spline shaft KIT - https://bustedknuckleoffroad.com/collections/carrier-bearings/products/bkor-billet-carrier-bearing-with-mount-1-5x10-spline-shaft

More like this.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WC3616D?tag=ihco-20

 

[Ditcherman]

Update: I connected with WOD today and they also confirmed that I should not have hard-mounted the carrier bearing to the frame since the engine, transmission and transfer case are rubber-mounted. As Peezy pointed out, the hard mount design is only for rigid frames where everything is hard-mounted.

I just can’t imagine a carrier bearing without a spherical or self centering design.
I confirmed with Jess at HAD today on my shaft and it has a self centering bearing, should be here soon.

Is there a logic to the simple roller bearing without movement?

Of course, if y’all ever see my rig you might think it looks like it was built by a farmer so there is that…

 

[Mike Shull]

I just can’t imagine a carrier bearing without a spherical or self centering design.
I confirmed with Jess at HAD today on my shaft and it has a self centering bearing, should be here soon.

Is there a logic to the simple roller bearing without movement?

Of course, if y’all ever see my rig you might think it looks like it was built by a farmer so there is that…

From what I understand after talking with two buggy experts and PAL, a 4 wheel drive vehicle will destroy front carrier bearings that aren’t strong enough to handle the speed (even 30 mph) and massive torque demanded when in the rocks or driving across the sand dunes, etc. On the other hand, you want a bit of movement in there to allow for some flex, which is the mistake that I made. These folks have tested a few dozen combinations and the common conclusion is that they are all using double heavy duty roller bearings.

I don’t know whether the spherical bearing that you are planning to run will work. PAL might have better input on that. Factory Toyota two piece drivelines with rubber isolators work fine in the rear of a crawler, which I would think would be more vulnerable to damage over a heavy duty spherical bearing, but I know from experience that the rubber isolators do wear out. Toyota does not use a two piece setup to get around an obstruction, either, so the torque on that bearing is probably much less than in our scenarios.

 

[Mike Shull]

I just can’t imagine a carrier bearing without a spherical or self centering design.
I confirmed with Jess at HAD today on my shaft and it has a self centering bearing, should be here soon.

Is there a logic to the simple roller bearing without movement?

Of course, if y’all ever see my rig you might think it looks like it was built by a farmer so there is that…

We used to grow hay, though I wouldn’t consider us previous production farmers, I know all about taking tractor parts off of the shelf and stuffing them into an off road vehicle. Sometimes those parts have intense strength, and other times they don’t last a drive around the country roads, and it was usually the part that I was the most confident with that would snap in half just pulling out of the shop.