Builds 69 FJ40 - The Wrong Call (2 Viewers)

[Green Bean]

My advice: Buy twice as much as you think that you need. It is nice to have extra on hand for when you need it.

 

[archie73]

View attachment 3741152

My garage white board. Left is a shopping list for the 40, right is a task list for the 75.

Nicely done. Only problem is-it doesn’t absorb oil like cardboard….

 

[SC-Cruiser]

Well I can't believe we are talking about list making but OK fine.

Here's what I do:

1. I have a small whiteboard in the garage and I add tasks to it for current in-progress projects
2. I have a notebook where I design things (wiring harnesses, sketches of custom parts, etc)
3. I have a spreadsheet of parts I want to track down.
4. I photograph every project I start and keep folders on my PC so I can resume projects without forgetting what I did

It sounds like a lot when I jot all it down but these are just habits from my old life managing projects at work.

I am just glad that the steering committee (me) doesn't expect the project manager (me) to create powerpoint status updates. And the review board (me) isn't asking the system architect (me) to submit my designs as visio files. And for the love of gawd I will not raise a ticket to the technician (me) just to get a bolt tightened so don't even ask!

Had to laugh when I read this. Reminds me of my time in project management .
Is your project: on time, on spec, on budget...?

 

[TreadingLight]

OK it's almost wrenching season so I am gathering parts and making decisions.

My goal is a crusty patina driver that straddles the line between 3-week trips to Baja and getting through the Rubicon (in a group). Sprung over on 35s, power steering, 5 speed, and as a stretch goal, some kinda diesel.

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a few things so last chance to talk me out of it.

• 70 axles, cut & turned - easy swap, stock width, good ebrake, full floating rear, share parts with my Troopy. SOA.
• Saginaw power steering - this offends the Toyota purist in me but the box seems to be a cleaner fit than a 60/70/80 steering box

Seem reasonable?

 

[archie73]

OK it's almost wrenching season so I am gathering parts and making decisions.

My goal is a crusty patina driver that straddles the line between 3-week trips to Baja and getting through the Rubicon (in a group). Sprung over on 35s, power steering, 5 speed, and as a stretch goal, some kinda diesel.

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a few things so last chance to talk me out of it.

• 70 axles, cut & turned - easy swap, stock width, good ebrake, full floating rear, share parts with my Troopy. SOA.
• Saginaw power steering - this offends the Toyota purist in me but the box seems to be a cleaner fit than a 60/70/80 steering box

Seem reasonable?

My only quibble is the Saginaw box being cleaner. I think the placement of the 60/80 box is much less invasive. The sag box requires cutting (structural ) the crossmember and a mounting plate. Th lc box only requires a mounting plate and similar mounting holes. I suppose the fender sport needs to be modified, but it’s minor compared to the hole in the xmember.

My 80 box has no trouble turning my 35’s in the rocks. If I was seriously considering bigger tires, I’d look into porting the box and add hydro assist. I’m sure the Saginaw is even more powerful if you’ll go to larger tires in the future. Everything has its place.

 

[TreadingLight]

I don't plan to go larger than 35s but stranger things have happened. My buddy helping with the fab work is a big Saginaw proponent. I don't see many fj60/80 conversions but lots of saginaws so I may have a warped view of things.

 

[Pighead]

The sag box requires cutting (structural ) the crossmember and a mounting plate.

Not necessarily. Saginaw box with a forward-facing Pitman is pretty clean...

 

[cruisermatt]

OK it's almost wrenching season so I am gathering parts and making decisions.

My goal is a crusty patina driver that straddles the line between 3-week trips to Baja and getting through the Rubicon (in a group). Sprung over on 35s, power steering, 5 speed, and as a stretch goal, some kinda diesel.

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a few things so last chance to talk me out of it.

• 70 axles, cut & turned - easy swap, stock width, good ebrake, full floating rear, share parts with my Troopy. SOA.
• Saginaw power steering - this offends the Toyota purist in me but the box seems to be a cleaner fit than a 60/70/80 steering box

Seem reasonable?

Unless you have some sort of really good deal on 70 series axles I would go with 60 series axles for the extra width. They will still share 90% of parts with your troopy but in practice I have found sharing parts between vehicles to not be a worthwhile goal
If you really want FF rear I would run an 80 FF rear and widen a 60 front to match
We are putting a 60 FF rear in @desmocruiser 40 here next month but they are getting very hard to find in NA.
I'm not purist but I am a much bigger fan of 60/80 box vs saginaw for 37 or smaller tires on a 40, I feel saginaw is a bit "too much" box and usually too numb, just my opinion.
you already have a massive project so personally I would start with a F/2F and some sort of H42 to get the ball rolling as it will all bolt in and be super simple. Do your suspension/steering/electrical and drive it for a year or two and make sure you actually like it before investing in an expensive engine swap.
We built a similar truck in my shop this year and it easily cruises highways speeds and Rubicon would be a cakewalk with it

For Sale - 1968 Fj40 Central Florida

Selling my 1968 Fj40 factory soft top, original body and paint. I have the original soft top doors rough shape and a set of hard doors. Price - 25,000 obo The truck is far from perfect, I build this rig 2 years ago in about 42 days. I have done some more work here and there but it has been my...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[pb4ugo]

Not necessarily. Saginaw box with a forward-facing Pitman is pretty clean...

View attachment 3799511

That's a scout box, which is a type of sag box with a longer shaft.

@TreadingLight , Scout, fj60, and fj80 steering is more common than you think. Imo, It's a less evasive and simpler install. I'm not sure how well it will work with soa. You can search scout or fj60 steering for more info.

Typically, when folks refer to sag steering, they're thinking a sag box box out frt that requires cutting a hole in the frt crossmember. Been there and had to replace the crossmember and repair the PO's frame hack.

Here's another Scout box.

 

[TreadingLight]

Unless you have some sort of really good deal on 70 series axles I would go with 60 series axles for the extra width.

I don't think I am after a wider stance. I think from rigs I've looked at, SOA on 35s is OK on stock width axles.

This is a forest road rig, occasional road tripper, and once a year at the Rubithon (with plenty of friends nearby to flip me over or drag me off the mountain).

That said my real priority is to simplify the fab work as much as possible as I am borrowing time space and skills from a better fabricator than I.

FF and having the same axles as my Troopy are a nice bonus. If not the 70 axles I'd go with 60 axles and not care about the FF rear.

They will still share 90% of parts with your troopy but in practice I have found sharing parts between vehicles to not be a worthwhile goal

You haven't seen my garage! But point taken on pushing things too far. A 40 will never be a 70.

I'm not purist but I am a much bigger fan of 60/80 box vs saginaw for 37 or smaller tires on a 40, I feel saginaw is a bit "too much" box and usually too numb, just my opinion.
you already have a massive project

Yeah my gut feeling is I'd rather have a Toyota 60/70/80 box but its not yet clear to me how I'd set up the steer linkage with the SOA. I'm still looking for a good example online or in person. Failing that I'll let my buddy do what he's good at (Saginaw).

so personally I would start with a F/2F and some sort of H42 to get the ball rolling as it will all bolt in and be super simple. Do your suspension/steering/electrical and drive it for a year or two and make sure you actually like it before investing in an expensive engine swap.

OK quit talking sense! I'm of two minds here. I have 2 F motors, a 3 speed, and I could get my hands on a 2f/4spd pretty easily.

But there's a good chance that if i set any of that up I'll never revisit the project again. I'd rather smell like diesel than gasoline. We'll see how this shakes out.

We built a similar truck in my shop this year and it easily cruises highways speeds and Rubicon would be a cakewalk with it

That's a pretty sharp rig - it's most of what I have in mind.

 

[cruisermatt]

I don't think I am after a wider stance. I think from rigs I've looked at, SOA on 35s is OK on stock width axles.
Yeah my gut feeling is I'd rather have a Toyota 60/70/80 box but its not yet clear to me how I'd set up the steer linkage with the SOA. I'm still looking for a good example online or in person. Failing that I'll let my buddy do what he's good at (Saginaw).

Even with a SOA as low as possible you'll end up wanting the width. FJ40's originally came with 28" tires - so you are getting roughly 3" of lift from just the 35" tire alone.
And just a note, it is better to have a wider axle and a wheel with deeper backspace then a narrower axle and wheel with shallower backspace (less scrub radius which WILL drive better both on and off road)

and that truck I linked above has a FJ60/80 box on it. we just used an off-the-shelf high-steer kit for a 60, and a flat pitman arm.
I make all the parts to put the box on the struck, frame plate, column, radiator support notch etc

 

[pb4ugo]

I remember following this thread yrs ago.
If you read thru this thread or search the thread he goes into what he did to run scout steering with soa. The link I found comes in towards the end.

Glucosamine treatment for an old warrior

Got the idle issue solved I think. After some discussion with Troy the programmer at Howell, I removed the "park neutral" wire from the ECM plug. Immediate RPM drop when warm. Still tweaking the stop screw to find where it's happy in traffic. Long down shifts cause rpm drops after a stop...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[dazerb]

wait a minute... did Cruiser "OEM" Matt say "I'm no purist?"

 

[cruisermatt]

wait a minute... did Cruiser "OEM" Matt say "I'm no purist?"

Is this news? I have an entire catalogue of GM conversion parts for 60’s and 80’s I’ve developed. Maybe you’re mixing me up with the other Matt.

 

[EWheeler]

wait a minute... did Cruiser "OEM" Matt say "I'm no purist?"

You're thinking of the wrong Matt....

 

[dazerb]

Is this news? I have an entire catalogue of GM conversion parts for 60’s and 80’s I’ve developed. Maybe you’re mixing me up with the other Matt.

Sorry, sorry... my bad! Got you guys mixed up. You're both great. Not enough coffee and too much nog.

 

[TreadingLight]

Even with a SOA as low as possible you'll end up wanting the width. FJ40's originally came with 28" tires - so you are getting roughly 3" of lift from just the 35" tire alone.

I get the logic here but I've driven a few SOA 40s on stock width axles and it wasn't terrible. In the end it comes down to cost and effort. I get the benefit but not sure that's where I want to put the effort (to adapt to wider axles).

we just used an off-the-shelf high-steer kit for a 60, and a flat pitman arm.
I make all the parts to put the box on the struck, frame plate, column, radiator support notch etc

I'll send you a PM. I was just poking around your site looking for info on this setup.

I could fab this all up with help from friends but parts that cut down on fab effort would be great.

 

[cruisermatt]

I get the logic here but I've driven a few SOA 40s on stock width axles and it wasn't terrible. In the end it comes down to cost and effort. I get the benefit but not sure that's where I want to put the effort (to adapt to wider axles).



I'll send you a PM. I was just poking around your site looking for info on this setup.

I could fab this all up with help from friends but parts that cut down on fab effort would be great.

what extra work is there? You probably don't realize putting 60 series axles in is going to be pretty much the exact same amount of work as putting 70 series axles in? Either way you have to move perches on both sets of axles, and if you are doing a SOA it's moot anyways because to do the SOA correctly you are going to be cutting everything off and moving it all anyways.

Either way you need high steer and linkages, spring perches on both axles, cut and turn, shock mounts, brake lines, shackle reversal depending on how low you want it, etc etc. This question isn't meant as a dig, but have you done a SOA before?

 

[TreadingLight]

This question isn't meant as a dig, but have you done a SOA before?

I don't take any offense. This is my first short wheelbase rig and first time I've considered an SOA conversion. All I know is what I've read on mud and the varied opinions of friends and colleagues and mudders.

Either way you need high steer and linkages, spring perches on both axles, cut and turn, shock mounts, brake lines, shackle reversal depending on how low you want it, etc etc

That all makes sense.

What about outboarding the springs for wider axles? At what point is that a factor?

Back to the steering box, what issues with a Toyota box in an soa setup? I see the rig you linked earlier is set up this way. Aside from having to cut the fender for the Toyota box, or availability of Saginaw parts, why would someone prefer Saginaw to Toyota?

Edit: changed my question about the toyota box

 

[cruisermatt]

you can put a FJ60 axle in without outboarding the springs, you just have to notch the housing. You could also put the FJ60 outers on a 40 axle and run wheel spacers and achieve close to the same thing (would have slightly less turning radius though, the FJ60 axle would be worth it IMO

We didn't have any issues with putting the steering box on that truck other then just using a different pitman arm then I normally would on a SUA rig. Personally I would not do Saginaw other then for tires +38" and up unless it was strictly off-road rig. They are just generally so much more assist it is a overall very numb feeling in terms of feedback. To me a FJ80 box on a 40 is the perfect blend of assist while keeping the steering feed back. An FJ80 is still double the GVW then a FJ40. Some will disagree with me on this, it's just a matter of opinion, I have done both installs of both