Tie Rod End Replacement Woes (1 Viewer)

[pb4ugo]

I get .556 and .502" with the bushing installed.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

It's the pair I got from Mark's Offroad along with the Tie Rod and Relay Rod. He was thinking I'd need them since this was a mini truck conversion. The tie rod ends were from FJ Parts. I ordered them before I learned I had the conversion and not a factory set up.

You should need the shims but something isn't meshing. Is it possible someone reamed out stock 4x 79-84 arms to the wrong depth? If they are 6x/7x or PU/4Runner arms, the shims should sit deeper in the arms taper.

 

[MatthewMcD]

You should need the shims but something isn't meshing. Is it possible someone reamed out stock 4x 79-84 arms to the wrong depth? If they are 6x/7x or PU/4Runner arms, the shims should sit deeper in the arms taper.

No idea about the history. The shims are a perfect fit in the arm taper (outside dimension) they don't fit the tie rod end (inside dimension). Not blaming anyone. I have also contacted Sonny at FJ Parts to see if he has tie rod ends with different dimensions. Both Mark and Sonny have been super helpful. I'll get back under the truck in a bit and see if the Rockauto shims are an option.

 

[cruisermatt]

Have you tried a different TRE in that location? It looks like that might be the TRE that goes at the idler arm. They have a longer stud.

 

[65swb45]

Matt, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to get back to you by phone; the week ran away from me faster than usual this week and, the three times I remembered that I wanted to reach out to you, I was in the shop. Ordinarily that wouldn’t be a problem, but all the phones in the shop are mysteriously out of order at the moment (office phones still working) and I haven’t had time to investigate that either.

All that said, here’s what I can tell you about tie rod shims. Until 2004 I stuck to recommending the 79-83 knuckle arm replacement. In 2004 I read about the SBO replacement on Pirate 4x4 and thought about it for a moment. I was pretty sure my insurance company would not be happy with me selling, installing or even advocating a soft bronze bushing for a high-leverage steering application. Fortunately, the situation was resolved when Dave Gore/Renegade Fabrications started offering the steel sleeves. I happily purchased them from him for the next decade and considered it THE solution. I switched to SOR for the sleeves about a decade ago for the simple matter of convenience: they are my largest wholesale account.

I have never tried to install the SOR sleeves, so I don’t know if there is a difference. But no one else has expressed a problem with them in the decade that I have been offering them.

This is what I know, and what I would have told you on the phone.

It’s your rig, and you get to make the call. Me personally, I would not use the SBO shim, and I don’t care how many of my friends and/or colleagues want to step forward and give testimonials about how many decades they’ve been using them.

 

[MatthewMcD]

Steering Knuckle 101....(FAQ)

Here are pictures of the smaller bolt pattern knuckle using the 11MM diameter stud, found on USA drum brake Land Cruisers and disc brake axles until 12/78:

forum.ih8mud.com

You likely have large pattern knuckles probably from a mini truck or a fj60. These were used to adapt stk Toyota disc brakes. Earlier fj40 disc brakes(76 to 78) used smaller pattern knuckles which have smaller tapers in the arms. Cruiser outfitters sells shims or you can try to adapt borg warner starter bushing # SB0.

My knuckle studs are 55mm and 30mm making them "larger bolt pattern knuckles using the 12MM stud found on 01/79 and later 40/60/62 and Mini trucks to 07/85" so we're at least identifying the parts...

Matthew

 

[MatthewMcD]

Have you tried a different TRE in that location? It looks like that might be the TRE that goes at the idler arm. They have a longer stud.

Thanks, yes I finally did that and all the small relay rod ends are sorted out. I now need to figure out the Tie Rod to Steering Knuckle connection.

 

[MatthewMcD]

Matt, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to get back to you by phone; the week ran away from me faster than usual this week and, the three times I remembered that I wanted to reach out to you, I was in the shop. Ordinarily that wouldn’t be a problem, but all the phones in the shop are mysteriously out of order at the moment (office phones still working) and I haven’t had time to investigate that either.

All that said, here’s what I can tell you about tie rod shims. Until 2004 I stuck to recommending the 79-83 knuckle arm replacement. In 2004 I read about the SBO replacement on Pirate 4x4 and thought about it for a moment. I was pretty sure my insurance company would not be happy with me selling, installing or even advocating a soft bronze bushing for a high-leverage steering application. Fortunately, the situation was resolved when Dave Gore/Renegade Fabrications started offering the steel sleeves. I happily purchased them from him for the next decade and considered it THE solution. I switched to SOR for the sleeves about a decade ago for the simple matter of convenience: they are my largest wholesale account.

I have never tried to install the SOR sleeves, so I don’t know if there is a difference. But no one else has expressed a problem with them in the decade that I have been offering them.

This is what I know, and what I would have told you on the phone.

It’s your rig, and you get to make the call. Me personally, I would not use the SBO shim, and I don’t care how many of my friends and/or colleagues want to step forward and give testimonials about how many decades they’ve been using them.

Mark,

No worries! I noticed your "out of office" after I called you...and yes, your phones are acting strangely.
I am not a fan of using the soft bronze either. The shims certainly fit the holes in the knuckle arms. They just don't fit the tie rod ends I have. So I am trying to figure out what my next move is.

 

[MatthewMcD]

Considering going back to original arms, or at least completing the "restoration" of the arms by installing 094-23BHD-PR from $OR. I need to call and confirm the hole pattern and size. I am told they will fit the hole pattern on my knuckles.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Considering going back to original arms, or at least completing the "restoration" of the arms by installing 094-23BHD-PR from $OR. I need to call and confirm the hole pattern and size. I am told they will fit the hole pattern on my knuckles.

Those are the 79+ large pattern. I think they ship a pair of 80+ 6x arms and shims fwiw.

 

[MatthewMcD]

Those are the 79+ large pattern. I think they ship a pair of 80+ 6x arms and shims fwiw.

Which matches my measurements. But being 40 series will these have the smaller tie rod end tapers?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Which matches my measurements. But being 40 series will these have the smaller tie rod end tapers?

They include the shims to go from the 4x taper to the 6x/7x/PU/4Runner taper those arms have.

Tie Rod End Shim - Fits E-1984 4x/5x Tie Rod Ends in 6x/7x/PU/4Runner Arm Applications (TRESHIM)

Cruiser Teq is the premier provider of high quality OEM, Japanese, and aftermarket Toyota Land Cruiser parts and accessories.

cruiserteq.com

I.e. they are the same arms you likely have. Same as we offer here:

Steering Arm - RH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 4x/6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - RH Applications (ST60060RH)

Steering Arm - RH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - RH Applications (ST60060RH)

cruiserteq.com

Steering Arm - LH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 4x/6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - LH Applications (ST60060LH)

Steering Arm - LH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - LH Applications (ST60060RH)

cruiserteq.com

With the proper shim & tie rod ends, it's a direct fit into those arms. Sold and installed thousands? at this point. Very common for 4x/5x disc brake swaps.

 

[MatthewMcD]

They include the shims to go from the 4x taper to the 6x/7x/PU/4Runner taper those arms have.

View attachment 3632353

Tie Rod End Shim - Fits E-1984 4x/5x Tie Rod Ends in 6x/7x/PU/4Runner Arm Applications (TRESHIM)

Cruiser Teq is the premier provider of high quality OEM, Japanese, and aftermarket Toyota Land Cruiser parts and accessories.

cruiserteq.com

I.e. they are the same arms you likely have. Same as we offer here:

Steering Arm - RH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 4x/6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - RH Applications (ST60060RH)

Steering Arm - RH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - RH Applications (ST60060RH)

cruiserteq.com

Steering Arm - LH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 4x/6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - LH Applications (ST60060LH)

Steering Arm - LH - Fits 8/1980-12/1989 6x & 11/1984-12/1989 7x Series - LH Applications (ST60060RH)

cruiserteq.com

With the proper shim & tie rod ends, it's a direct fit into those arms. Sold and installed thousands? at this point. Very common for 4x/5x disc brake swaps.

Thanks Kurt,

I don't mean to be an ass, but at this point I'd love to NOT replace the arms. I can save the cash and avoid the inevitable "broken stud" or "stripped stud" issues.

I'd love to just get the right shims. Marks says he's never seen this issue with his shims. What set of measurements can I provide that would get me the correct shims?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Thanks Kurt,

I don't mean to be an ass, but at this point I'd love to NOT replace the arms. I can save the cash and avoid the inevitable "broken stud" or "stripped stud" issues.

I'd love to just get the right shims. Marks says he's never seen this issue with his shims. What set of measurements can I provide that would get me the correct shims?

Your issue is one of 3 places:

Wrong tie rod end
Wrong shim
Wrong steering arm

I don't have dimensions handy and as it's not a tech support issue with parts purchased on our end so I can't reasonably ask my tech team to divert from their work to dig into an answer, they will tell you to buy our parts . If I was at shop with time personally, I'd be happy to look into it, I'm traveling until the 27th so that is the quickest I could assist personally. I'm confident Mark could get you some measurements of a stock 40 series tie rod end... that would put all this to rest in minutes.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

To shim or not to shim...without the shims the ball joints are obviously way too loose. But with the shims they look like they won't snug up. Is that OK? I am worried I won't be able to get the castle nut far enough down to set the cotter pin.
View attachment 3623816
Or do I need thinner shims? I don't want to tighten everything up and screw it up at this point.

How much have you actually tightened the TRE and shim? They are a softer material and will "pull" into the steering arm a surprising amount as you torque the tie rod end castle nut. Worst case you grab a file and knock off a little material until it pulls together nicely.

I'd suspect the Tie Rod End and Shim are fine and the hole in your arm is slightly out of round from years of getting smacked with a sledge to pop the end out. The shims will be tight on new tie rod ends and new arms too. We have a taper tool we often use to clean up the roundness of arms.

 

[MatthewMcD]

Your issue is one of 3 places:

Wrong tie rod end
Wrong shim
Wrong steering arm

I don't have dimensions handy and as it's not a tech support issue with parts purchased on our end so I can't reasonably ask my tech team to divert from their work to dig into an answer, they will tell you to buy our parts . If I was at shop with time personally, I'd be happy to look into it, I'm traveling until the 27th so that is the quickest I could assist personally. I'm confident Mark could get you some measurements of a stock 40 series tie rod end... that would put all this to rest in minutes.

Kurt, I totally understand. This is me working with two great and very responsive folks, adding another vendor is the mix does not feel right unless they have the solution. Here are all the measurements I have managed to take.

For obvious budgetary reasons, I'd love a shim to solve the issue. I just need it to fit the new tie rod end.
I'll get in touch with them and find a solution. Like I said, I'd rather not remove the knuckle arms yet. I'll earn my "I rebuilt my knuckles" badge for later this year or early next.

As always I am super grateful for the support here.

 

[MatthewMcD]

How much have you actually tightened the TRE and shim? They are a softer material and will "pull" into the steering arm a surprising amount as you torque the tie rod end castle nut. Worst case you grab a file and knock off a little material until it pulls together nicely.

View attachment 3632472

I'd suspect the Tie Rod End and Shim are fine and the hole in your arm is slightly out of round from years of getting smacked with a sledge to pop the end out. The shims will be tight on new tie rod ends and new arms too. We have a taper tool we often use to clean up the roundness of arms.

Sorry I missed this...After making the measurements, it looks like the inner diameter of the shim or the OD of the new TRE is the issue. The shim fits great in the arm, I could snug it up nearly flush. The thing I am worried about is the tie rod end sucking up enough to clear the cotter pin hole.

Maybe I am overthinking it and should just do it and see.
With this truck it's "once bitten twice shy"...but I have been bitten about 8 times.

 

[MatthewMcD]

@cruiseroutfit The reamer sounds like a great idea. I'll clean up the holes and set the shim with a sacrificial bolt and washer. Then run the TRE up into it.

Thanks again for the assistance.

 

[65swb45]

I totally agree with Kurt that you should just assemble it.

And Kurt, thanks for the pinch hit while I was out.

 

[pb4ugo]

Sorry I missed this...After making the measurements, it looks like the inner diameter of the shim or the OD of the new TRE is the issue. The shim fits great in the arm, I could snug it up nearly flush. The thing I am worried about is the tie rod end sucking up enough to clear the cotter pin hole.

Maybe I am overthinking it and should just do it and see.
With this truck it's "once bitten twice shy"...but I have been bitten about 8 times.

So, you don't think the cotter pin hole will be exposed when the nut is tightened with the shim is installed?