Rear Suspension Question: Does a lift result in an offset rear axle?

[AutoCraft Aus]

We recommend UCAs on anything over 30mm lift to get to neg camber and max caster to go with higher roll centre.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Is there any chance the offset could cause premature wear on connected components? Mine is about 1/2" beyond the 1/2" spec'd variance. I just replaced a leaking KDSS cylinder and can't help but wonder if the out-of-alignment rear end didn't put strain on the cylinder.

Ordered up an adjustable panhard, and now considering adjustable trailing arms too!

Sure, sway bar bushings don't like having a moment in the wrong direction... they'll have increased wear over time. We stock the Old Man Emu (80/100) and Dobinson (200) to combat just that.

 

[crikeymike]

Assuming you start with a centered axle, any lift on a track bar equipped vehicle is going to cause some offset, a gent name Pythagoras said so. The more lift you have, the higher the offset. Now, many choose not to worry about it as the offset is small. For those that do choose to change, you have many options to choose from. Most are not only adjustable but stronger material then stock. For the standard 2-3" lift, the offset isn't enough for most owners to do anything about it and downsides outside of asthetics are minimal.

I concur, most people don't ever notice, or the difference is slight that they don't spend the extra money on it. With guys having rusting/seizing issues with bolts and gear, I expect more people will replace these sorts of things as time progress, like with the 80's.

Rear UCA's are a good idea for true alignment correction. 4Runners use the same upgrades too with 2"+ of lift in the rear.

 

[Oz200]

Just installed the Blackhawk panhard rod today along with some heavier springs ready for drawers and a fuel/water tank. As it sits it's 100mm (4") over a standard 200 in the rear and the axle is dead centre, probably have to adjust it again once the weight is in. Nice stealth look in black.

 

[mreedbmwm3]

Do you guys think I need this for my OME lift? I found this thread because my tires of been cupping on the inside. Not sure if anyone has experienced this but having it aligned at two different places has not fixed the issue.

 

[Box Rocket]

Are your rear tires cupping or the front?
Bad camber can cause that but generally speaking there aren't too many ways to affect camber unless you are running offset Knuckle bearings. However, worn out wheel bearings could cause bad camber too.
The most likely culprits are improper toe adjustment and/or tire pressure too low. But if you've had alignments done the toe should be fine. What tire pressure do you typically run?

The other possibility is worn out shocks and tires out of balance. If the shocks are worn and allowing tires to "bounce" going down the road it can cause cupping or other bad tire wear.

Good luck.

 

[Box Rocket]

Do you guys think I need this for my OME lift? I found this thread because my tires of been cupping on the inside. Not sure if anyone has experienced this but having it aligned at two different places has not fixed the issue.

Sorry I just realized that this was in the 200 section. I had the 80 series on my mind. With the IFS on the 200 you can definitely have camber settings out of adjustment. It's more difficult to get out of spec on an 80 series with the solid axle. So camber would definitely be something to look at in addition to the other things mentioned.

 

[Rigger]

Sorry I just realized that this was in the 200 section. I had the 80 series on my mind. With the IFS on the 200 you can definitely have camber settings out of adjustment. It's more difficult to get out of spec on an 80 series with the solid axle. So camber would definitely be something to look at in addition to the other things mentioned.

Adam, are you subconsciously headed towards the 200?

 

[Box Rocket]

Adam, are you subconsciously headed towards the 200?

Not subconscious at all. I'd love to have a 200 and it's on the radar.

 

[OreRyan]

So glad I found this thread. Just installed Bp-51’s all around and Icon springs in back and car was steering to the right. Alignment shows my rear axle is crooked.

 

[SQRRRL]

So glad I found this thread. Just installed Bp-51’s all around and Icon springs in back and car was steering to the right. Alignment shows my rear axle is crooked.

View attachment 3643424

You may need a longer Panhard bar.

 

[crikeymike]

So glad I found this thread. Just installed Bp-51’s all around and Icon springs in back and car was steering to the right. Alignment shows my rear axle is crooked.

View attachment 3643424

This will set it straight.

Dobinsons Rear Adjustable Panhard Rod Track Bar | Land Cruiser 200 + 300 Series

Dobinsons HD Panhard Rod for 200 Series Land Cruisers and Lexus LX570 models, with a fully adjustable end to recenter your rear axle

exitoffroad.com

 

[OreRyan]

You may need a longer Panhard bar.

Going to order one asap. What about adjustable trailing arms?

 

[crikeymike]

Going to order one asap. What about adjustable trailing arms?

Those will tilt the axle up and down or left to right too. If the stock arms are crooked, the adjustable arms can fix it.

 

[TeCKis300]

No surprise the rear axle is crooked, i.e. has a thrust angle, after a lift. The panhard is at a more extreme downangle and the sagitta of the arc it draws, pulls the axle to one side.

IMO, an adjustable panhard only fixes a very limited part of the problem.

The root of the problem is the panhard geometry, and the wholistic fix is a panhard correction kit/bracket.

This will raise the panhard angle and eliminate the axle offset.

It will also greatly improve and minimize the axle shifting side to side as the suspension cycles. Or the dramatic thrust angle change when the rear end lifts on hard braking. This is arguably the more important thing to fix, which an adjustable panhard does nothing for.

Will also fix lost roll resistance against the lifted roll center.

 

[vipergrhd]

From what the alignment reading I think one of your lower control arms could be bent or worn bushing causing the shift, the panhard bar has very little to do with this. If you are getting an adjustable bar have the alignment shop install it while it's on the machine and see how much will it change when it's properly adjusted. Just to add the rear toe reading is almost even so your axle is almost like going into a turn, left rear is toe out while the right rear is toe in.

 

[timjax]

No surprise the rear axle is crooked, i.e. has a thrust angle, after a lift. The panhard is at a more extreme downangle and the sagitta of the arc it draws, pulls the axle to one side.

IMO, an adjustable panhard only fixes a very limited part of the problem.

The root of the problem is the panhard geometry, and the wholistic fix is a panhard correction kit/bracket.

This will raise the panhard angle and eliminate the axle offset.

It will also greatly improve and minimize the axle shifting side to side as the suspension cycles. Or the dramatic thrust angle change when the rear end lifts on hard braking. This is arguably the more important thing to fix, which an adjustable panhard does nothing for.

Will also fix lost roll resistance against the lifted roll center.

Here is a panhard correction bracket which uses the OEM panhard bar but adjusts the geometry for the lift, instead of an adjustable panhard bar itself:

B.O.T.C.K - Bolt On TrackBar Correction kit Land Cruiser 200 series/ LX 570

Make sure you pick the correct one. Measure your bolt height difference! Start with frame side. From the ground up, measure to center of the track bar bolt. Do the same for the axle side bolt. Measure from the ground up to center of bolt head. Subtract those two numbers. If it falls with...

drkdss.com

This solution is pretty popular on the GX460 platform.

Before:

After:

 

[bloc]

Required viewing:

 

[TeCKis300]

Required viewing:

Great video. If that's a required viewing as a primer to understand how panhard sagitta creates lateral displacement, what's crazy to understand is this next dimension.

Our rear suspensions are 5-link architectures. Each of the 5-links, has an associated sagitta in play.

From a birdseye view focusing on the yellow lower trailing links in the diagram below. When the rear axle displaces, it causes one trailing link to straighten out relative to the chassis, and the other trailing link to increase in angle. In this example, the passenger side pushes the axle rearward, while the driver side pulls the axle forward. Creating a net thrust angle. Hence the alignment @OreRyan shows.

There's two more shorter upper trailing links that similarly do funny things.

Now imagine the suspension cycling. Not only is the axle displacing side to side, it's changing in thrust angle (rear steer) that the driver needs to correct for. There's also funny warp and wrap of the axle going on. All making for a crazy handling rig. Once you understand and start feeling what's going on, you can't unfeel it and will wish for corrected geometry.

Geometry is so fundamental to good handling vehicle and why it's important to consider and correct for it as we lift the vehicle. Just as many use UCAs to fix geometry at the front axle, a PCK can work wonders for the rear axle.

 

[Climbingnut]

I have only the 2” OME BP-51 lift kit on my 200. I’ve noticed my alignment on the rear is just a bit out as well on my print outs. Given the size and price of the bolt on track bar correction bracket, I’m highly inclined to buy one. The adjustable pan hard bar is pricy and as I’m not going bigger than 285/70R17 tires, I don’t want to spend the extra money on importing one from Australia to Namibia for me to then drive down and have installed.

@TeCKis300 and @bloc, is this something you’re running? Are adjustable upper links really necessary? I’m not rock crawling as most people know it, but am off-road A LOT for work, usually towing a caravan, and definitely doing some cross axle stuff requiring diff locks and such in certain places.