Is the 250 the best size Landcruiser platform since the 40 series ? (1 Viewer)

[Jetboy]

For me it's hard to know what a minimum tire size will need to be until we have more information on how heavy it is and what it takes to fit larger ones. Visually it looks like 35's are a bolt on size. Especially side by side with the LC300 - the wheel wells are much larger on the LC250. And with the larger footprint it may need bigger tires on a lot of trails than you might fit through with a 4Runner on 33's. And you'll need 35's to match the ground clearance of a 4Runner on 33's. I think I'd go with 35s if they fit, and 1.5-2ish inch lift with improved shocks, sliders, skids, and a winch in either partial bumper or hidden winch mount. Not sure what shocks I'd look for. I liked the ride of Fox Factory Series on my 4R, but didn't like the annual need to pull them out and replace the bearings. I did like the ability to open up and adjust valving, but my life doesn't have enough free time right now to spend weekends re-valving shocks. Ideally if a set of Tundra TRD Pro shocks fit - I'd find a set. If not, I'm not sure what I'd choose. I'm not sure I'll ever buy shocks for a daily driver again that have spherical bearings.

For me, that would get me everywhere I'd want to go before I'd either take my FJ40 or SXS for the more challenging (damaging) trails. Just like I had my 5th gen 4Runner setup. And still hopefully have great highway ride/handling. If I buy one - that's probably my formula. Keep weight to a minimum with no bloat. Just the minimum necessary weight. For me the winch, armor, and bigger tires are all probably must-haves. I sure hope the transmission shift logic can learn how to play well with 35's.

 

[Phillyd2]

I wouldn't go for a lift. I'm guessing you can fit 33" tires without a lift.

If you put on aftermarket bumpers then you are off to the races financially. You can expect several thousand $ for the bumpers. You'll need a lift and stiffer springs. You'll then add heavier and larger tires. The rig will be hundreds if not a thousand pounds heavier. Your fuel economy will suffer significantly. None of us are suspension engineers and we don't have the finances, expertise, or facilities of Toyota to properly tune the suspension to the taller, heavier vehicle.

No thank you.

Edited to add: As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in a different thread. Some years back I was at an LCDC event in Telluride. We'd done Imogene Pass and I was in a parking lot in Ouray airing up my tires. A guy on a KTM dual sport bike got off his motorcycle and came over to me. He told that he'd had a 200. He lifted it, put on bumpers, new springs and shocks, upper control arms, 34" tires, roof rack, lockers, regeared, rock sliders, skid plates, etc. After he was done with it, he realized that he now hated driving it and he sold it. He said he should done what I did: 33" tires and rock sliders and called it done.

Good that you found that one guy to confirm your decision but there are literally hundreds and hundreds of lifted 4Rs with bumpers and / or winches (including mine) without issue or drama. Both the 250 & 550 will at the very least match the robustness in regards to suspension. That people routinely add these things to their rigs is no secret to Toyota.

 

[krice118]

I too recommend people to build minimally.

Sincerely,
Fully armored and heavy 100 series owner

 

[desmocruiser]

I wouldn't go for a lift. I'm guessing you can fit 33" tires without a lift.

If you put on aftermarket bumpers then you are off to the races financially. You can expect several thousand $ for the bumpers. You'll need a lift and stiffer springs. You'll then add heavier and larger tires. The rig will be hundreds if not a thousand pounds heavier. Your fuel economy will suffer significantly. None of us are suspension engineers and we don't have the finances, expertise, or facilities of Toyota to properly tune the suspension to the taller, heavier vehicle.

No thank you.

My experience with lifts, bumpers, winches etc is somewhat different than yours. I feel the ride and drive is improved and I don’t blame my bumpers, winch, or sliders for their sub par fuel economy, they were that way before!!!

However, I do agree there is a target max lift for every vehicle before you create downstream issues and it is important to stay within that spec including load. I have owned a dozen lifted Land Cruisers in the past 20 years following that plan and felt the ride and drive was greatly improved.

As far as bumpers most of the newer generation 200 series bumpers are aluminum and I expect many of the offerings for the 250 to be as well, being said I do think racks, full kitchens, and stuff you carry around you haven’t used in 3 trips need to be jettisoned to lighten the load!

 

[hoser]

I welcome the hybrid drivetrain. I don't think it is that complicated. And I don't think a failed Nickel-Metal Hybrid battery nor failed electric motor will strand you. I always want power and better MPG for better range. I prefer not to have to carry 50 gallons of fuel to get good range. My aux fuel tanks consumes as much space as that battery. My 3,000+ mile trips consume almost $1500 in fuel. The added torque from an electric motor is also welcomed on the trail. Might not need an extra low transfer case gear. The regenerative braking can give better crawl control.

Heck, the gears in my head are turning now. I could charge an LFP fridge battery quite fast on 48 volts. What benefits could be achieved by doubling the battery capacity? I just checked and the OE Tundra 1.87kWh one is $4k.

My biggest concern with this motor is the ability to climb long mountain passes at GVWR. If it can't do that, then GX550/3.4L Turbo will be my choice.

 

[Corbet]

I’m excited to buy the 250-Series. In a way I could never be about a 200. Love the size, styling, powertrain, everything. Really hope for the first time we get to choose how it get equipped like other models. With 3 trim levels I expect it will be the case.

It‘s my plan for a new DD. I have no plans to try to duplicate my 80-Series. I’m keeping that for the weekends. Some true 33’s and sliders and I’ll be happy. I’ll take the 250 camping with my wife and the 80 with the guys. Best of both worlds.

I’ve got some concerns about towing in the mountains. Time will tell. My overland trailer is only 2500lbs fully loaded so I’m not too nervous.

 

[saucebox]

I wouldn't go for a lift. I'm guessing you can fit 33" tires without a lift.

If you put on aftermarket bumpers then you are off to the races financially. You can expect several thousand $ for the bumpers. You'll need a lift and stiffer springs. You'll then add heavier and larger tires. The rig will be hundreds if not a thousand pounds heavier. Your fuel economy will suffer significantly. None of us are suspension engineers and we don't have the finances, expertise, or facilities of Toyota to properly tune the suspension to the taller, heavier vehicle.

No thank you.

Edited to add: As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in a different thread. Some years back I was at an LCDC event in Telluride. We'd done Imogene Pass and I was in a parking lot in Ouray airing up my tires. A guy on a KTM dual sport bike got off his motorcycle and came over to me. He told that he'd had a 200. He lifted it, put on bumpers, new springs and shocks, upper control arms, 34" tires, roof rack, lockers, regeared, rock sliders, skid plates, etc. After he was done with it, he realized that he now hated driving it and he sold it. He said he should done what I did: 33" tires and rock sliders and called it done.

We'll agree to disagree

Tuning things to work well is half the fun in it. The 250 is intriguing as hell, and modding it out should be just as fun as any series that came before.

 

[Jeremy556]

I welcome the hybrid drivetrain. I don't think it is that complicated. And I don't think a failed Nickel-Metal Hybrid battery nor failed electric motor will strand you. I always want power and better MPG for better range. I prefer not to have to carry 50 gallons of fuel to get good range. My aux fuel tanks consumes as much space as that battery. My 3,000+ mile trips consume almost $1500 in fuel. The added torque from an electric motor is also welcomed on the trail. Might not need an extra low transfer case gear. The regenerative braking can give better crawl control.

Heck, the gears in my head are turning now. I could charge an LFP fridge battery quite fast on 48 volts. What benefits could be achieved by doubling the battery capacity? I just checked and the OE Tundra 1.87kWh one is $4k.

My biggest concern with this motor is the ability to climb long mountain passes at GVWR. If it can't do that, then GX550/3.4L Turbo will be my choice.

By some rough calculations, it's only got about 3 minutes of 50hp output from the electric motor before the small battery is exhausted. After that, you have 270hp, which is enough to maintain speed up passes at GVWR, but it isn't going to be effortless and fast. At least with the turbo, it won't be losing as much power at altitude compared to the NA engines.

50hp = 37.3kw, so divide 1.9kwh you get 0.05 of an hour run time, minus a bit for losses

 

[Rednexus]

By some rough calculations, it's only got about 3 minutes of 50hp output from the electric motor before the small battery is exhausted. After that, you have 270hp, which is enough to maintain speed up passes at GVWR, but it isn't going to be effortless and fast. At least with the turbo, it won't be losing as much power at altitude compared to the NA engines.

50hp = 37.3kw, so divide 1.9kwh you get 0.05 of an hour run time, minus a bit for losses

In my experience with our hybrid, it was charging in some instances going up Eisenhower Pass (albeit not pulling a trailer). The Toyota hybrid system is really advanced and uses any momentary lag in throttle to keep the system charging and top off the battery. I don't think they really every end up in a situation where the battery is totally dead and you're left as ICE-only. TFL Truck also ran a Tundra hybrid puling 10,000# up Eisenhower with really good results.

Video: The New Toyota Tundra Hybrid Takes on the World’s Toughest Towing Test Maxed Out!

We finally get a chance to test out the 2022 Toyota Tundra Hybrid (in Capstone trim) up the Ike Gauntlet. How's how it performs!

tfltruck.com

 

[TWILLY]

Toyota offers gas and diesel engines all over the world. Non-hybrid. They sell. Sell well. How is that?! The UN and all the terrorist warring factions drive non-hybrid Toyotas. Is MPG their main concern?!

Toyota wasn't explicitly designing the Cruiser to have 'bad' gas mileage, it was a combination of a lot of things. It still sold well. Most are still on the road, all over the world.

Toyotas and Land Cruisers have been the GO TO for around the world travel and 'overlanding' for decades now. This thing about MPGs holding us all back is non-sense.

Sure, better fuel efficency is a good thing......however this rabid, tunnel vision focus on STRICTLY mpgs is not the answer.

I get it......driving to the mall or taking your fam to the beach at 12 mpg is not that fun....but perhaps those people didn't get the correct tool for that lite duty job.


yes?

Our family has owned and used Land Cruisers for remote touring and work in the western US and Mexico since 1991.

Unlike its global market diesel-powered brothers, the poor efficiency of US market Land Cruisers is a problem.

That poor efficiency translates into inadequate range (yes, in parts of the western US too), higher costs (aux tanks, fuel), and a significant payload penalty (of having to carry fuel weight instead of water or people, for example).

Just as our Land Cruisers have brought our family home safely from countless trips for decades, I trust Toyota Land Cruiser engineers to have designed the turbo hybrid system to also meet Land Cruiser standards of capability, reliability, and longevity.

Land Cruiser engineers have unequivocally earned that trust and benefit of doubt.

The US market will not see diesel Land Cruisers. Nor 70 series. No amount of internet lament will change that, nor will it change US fuel efficiency, emissions, and safety regulations.

That being the state of the world, the turbo hybrid system is an excellent and long-overdue solution to Land Cruiser's efficiency problem. It provides diesel-like power and efficiency alongside built-in battery capacity in the regulatory context of the US market.

Good job, Toyota.

 

[TWILLY]

The dimensions and design theme were intentionally that of the 80 series according to the designer of the 250...

Do you have a source for this? I would like to read it.

I know engineers benchmarked the 300 series chassis off road capabilities against the 80 series (and thus 250's) but I have not read similar benchmarking on 250's dimensions and design otherwise.

 

[TWILLY]

I wouldn't go for a lift. I'm guessing you can fit 33" tires without a lift.

If you put on aftermarket bumpers then you are off to the races financially. You can expect several thousand $ for the bumpers. You'll need a lift and stiffer springs. You'll then add heavier and larger tires. The rig will be hundreds if not a thousand pounds heavier. Your fuel economy will suffer significantly. None of us are suspension engineers and we don't have the finances, expertise, or facilities of Toyota to properly tune the suspension to the taller, heavier vehicle.

No thank you.

Edited to add: As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in a different thread. Some years back I was at an LCDC event in Telluride. We'd done Imogene Pass and I was in a parking lot in Ouray airing up my tires. A guy on a KTM dual sport bike got off his motorcycle and came over to me. He told that he'd had a 200. He lifted it, put on bumpers, new springs and shocks, upper control arms, 34" tires, roof rack, lockers, regeared, rock sliders, skid plates, etc. After he was done with it, he realized that he now hated driving it and he sold it. He said he should done what I did: 33" tires and rock sliders and called it done.

Ideally the 250 is engineered to fit taller tires while remaining entirely stock otherwise. Hopefully the spare tire compartment is as large as the wheel wells.

The same for fuel capacity. Ideally, given its fuel efficiency, fuel capacity will afford enough range to preclude the need for aux fuel (and the expensive tanks or heavy bumpers that go along with it).

 

[desmocruiser]

Do you have a source for this? I would like to read it.

I know engineers benchmarked the 300 series chassis off road capabilities against the 80 series (and thus 250's) but I have not read similar benchmarking on 250's dimensions and design otherwise.

The designer spoke at CruiserFest in September, I am not sure if there is another video of his presentation available, the museum mentions it is coming soon to their site.

Land Cruiser Heritage Museum - CruiserFest

Announcing the 16th Annual CruiserFestFundraising Day to Support the Land Cruiser Heritage Museum The greatest celebration of Land Cruisers in the USA happens in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Land Cruiser Heritage Museum will be hosting the 16th annual CruiserFest, a fundraising event to support the...

landcruiserhm.com

 

[TWILLY]

The designer spoke at CruiserFest in September, I am not sure if there is another video of his presentation available, the museum mentions it is coming soon to their site.

Land Cruiser Heritage Museum - CruiserFest

Announcing the 16th Annual CruiserFestFundraising Day to Support the Land Cruiser Heritage Museum The greatest celebration of Land Cruisers in the USA happens in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Land Cruiser Heritage Museum will be hosting the 16th annual CruiserFest, a fundraising event to support the...

landcruiserhm.com

Thanks.

 

[Patassa]

The price of gas nationwide in the U.S. in 1993 when the (real) 80 was introduced was $1.11gallon. $25bucks to fill your tank and 13-15mpg
When the LC250 is released - we will probalbly be close to $4.00 gallon nationwide........4x the cost per gallon and barely 2x the range EVEN if it can get 27mpg. I think this is the main reason people are "concerned" with mpg.
Toyotas design window for the 1fz started in the mid 80s and it was produced worldwide 1993-2008 ! I would imagine Toyota has somewhat changed this design and production window to be somewhat shorter and more nimble......but my take is that the LC250 motor will end up in various platforms and go thru a similar evolution and refinement. It may not last 25 years like the 1fz.....but id bet it will be an ideal setup in one of the smaller platforms like a tacoma or 4runner. Also remember probably the MOST durable/successful motor in the U.S. market toyota ever made was the 22RE - a 4 banger. Id be perfectly happy with that legendary motors durability in a modern package that had enough juice to power a cruiser/ prado even if it got a few mpgs less than the same motor does in a lighter duty taco or 4runner platform.

I wonder if it would be more helpful for people to look at their fuel bill vs % of income over time.
Gas has been relatively flat adjusted for inflation since the 1960s.
Or, My income has increased 300% since 2008, gas has only gone up 22%.

 

[Knowbuddy]

The designer spoke at CruiserFest in September, I am not sure if there is another video of his presentation available, the museum mentions it is coming soon to their site.

Land Cruiser Heritage Museum - CruiserFest

Announcing the 16th Annual CruiserFestFundraising Day to Support the Land Cruiser Heritage Museum The greatest celebration of Land Cruisers in the USA happens in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Land Cruiser Heritage Museum will be hosting the 16th annual CruiserFest, a fundraising event to support the...

landcruiserhm.com

There is not. I was running the live video on instagram. I could pull that video potentially.

 

[mkennedy009]

I have two things, ya'll brought up the Wrangler, Sales of the 4xe are about 40% of the sales Q1, 2023. In 2021 they were 25% of all Wranglers, they are on track to be 50% by the end of the year. Toyota isn't stupid.

For all you that want what was old and is new again...Ineos. A tank with mpg from the 90's. If you are lucky to live outside NA then get the diesel 24mpg. The BMW (B52/53) engine is straight-six that is bulletproof, proven. It is a great truck for $90K and is way less than a G-wagon. Although there are no cool songs about the Ineos.

 

[desmocruiser]

I have two things, ya'll brought up the Wrangler, Sales of the 4xe are about 40% of the sales Q1, 2023. In 2021 they were 25% of all Wranglers, they are on track to be 50% by the end of the year. Toyota isn't stupid.

For all you that want what was old and is new again...Ineos. A tank with mpg from the 90's. If you are lucky to live outside NA then get the diesel 24mpg. The BMW (B52/53) engine is straight-six that is bulletproof, proven. It is a great truck for $90K and is way less than a G-wagon. Although there are no cool songs about the Ineos.

Good points, it highlights most folks biggest complaint, the lack of powertrain choices once the Hybrid was introduced in the LC.

I am kinda guessing, but doesn’t the Wrangler have a 4,6,8 cylinder option, some gas, some diesel, PLUS the 4Xe?

It is definitely not marketed towards most Gen X Cruiser folks.

Damn, how did we get so old?!?

I would love to check out the Ineos someday, but for my $90k, is a nice Cruiser build or 3 will do!!!

 

[M1911]

I have two things, ya'll brought up the Wrangler, Sales of the 4xe are about 40% of the sales Q1, 2023. In 2021 they were 25% of all Wranglers, they are on track to be 50% by the end of the year. Toyota isn't stupid.

For all you that want what was old and is new again...Ineos. A tank with mpg from the 90's. If you are lucky to live outside NA then get the diesel 24mpg. The BMW (B52/53) engine is straight-six that is bulletproof, proven. It is a great truck for $90K and is way less than a G-wagon. Although there are no cool songs about the Ineos.

I would not bet money on Ineos being a going concern 10 years from now. YMMV.

 

[mkennedy009]

@desmocruiser Yes, jeep has great engine options, the V8 starts at $92K. It maxes out MSRP is about $101K. Almost the cost of two LCs.

We are not old, just experienced, worldly and awesome because we have made it this far...

@M1911 Ineos should be around because they are hedging there bets on hydrogen and they are going to sell a s***tonne to NGOs who are replacing there range rovers. LC could bite into that strategy if it a solid product. Time will tell.