Is the 250 the best size Landcruiser platform since the 40 series ? (1 Viewer)

[desmocruiser]

If toyota WANTED to sell a 70 series or whatever you want to call it to compete with the greater that 200,000 units that Jeep and Ford Bronco sell every year and do it with little to no R&D because they already make all the require components/drive trains they could do so and it would be very profitable.

They are choosing not to and instead embark on an attempt to sell a new unproven model to a market segment (people) that doesnt yet exist.

Chevy Tahoe, escalades, Ford Exploder's are all bread and butter of those brands and fly off the lots/are highly profitable.

Problem is that once again Toyota is selling what they want instead of what consumers are demanding and purchasing in large numbers from their competitors

Which one is the unproven model?

 

[jayp2]

Which one is the unproven model?

The AWD Prius masquerading as a LC they are about to release......

 

[desmocruiser]

I don’t think Toyota could build 200,000 70 series for the US if they wanted to.

I think there is a decent waitlist world wide for a 70 series already, there sadly isn’t any additional capacity at that quality level.

 

[jayp2]

I don’t think Toyota could build 200,000 70 series for the US if they wanted to.

I think there is a decent waitlist world wide for a 70 series already, there sadly isn’t any additional capacity at that quality level.

That is definately what we have been told

But overall toyota production volume is waaaay down over the last 10 years so I'm inclined to say that where there's a will there's a way.

And to be fair, I'm not suggesting that Toyota could sell 200k 70's each year in the US.....200k is the total units sold annually for Jeep and Bronco......

If those two are selling 200k each year and could sell more.....there's an indisputable customer demand for vehicles that fall into that use/feature set.

What is obvious to most of us is that if Toyota wanted to offer a Jeep/Bronco busting model (73/76) they have a guaranteed customer base that would eat them up and they would sell far more units of these than they would ever sell of the 250 based on historical numbers I've presented in past

Everywhere I go in my 70 I have people fawning over the vehicle wishing toyota would offer them in the US.....even my local toyota dealership wishes they could offer a 70 series option

 

[desmocruiser]

The AWD Prius masquerading as a LC they are about to release......

Ha!

Well it is a rebadged Prado (fancy 4Runner) after all, which does sell pretty well worldwide even with crappy powertrains.

Toyota will not have a problem selling them, it isn’t my choice of rig and disappointingly is the only LC badge offered here, but they will sell 10 times the number of 200 series!

 

[jayp2]

Ha!

Well it is a rebadged Prado (fancy 4Runner) after all, which does sell pretty well worldwide even with crappy powertrains.

Toyota will not have a problem selling them, it isn’t my choice of rig and disappointingly is the only LC badge offered here, but they will sell 10 times the number of 200 series!

Time will tell

Looking at historical data, I suspect we will see 1-3 years of sales pushing 3-4k units to the early adopters

After that Toyota LC numbers will plummet and lexus sales will stumble along for a while longer.

This is the pattern of LC sales we've seen post 80 series in the US

 

[Phillyd2]

Toyota openly admitted that they did what they had to do, NOT what they wanted to do.

I challenge any of the cheerleaders on here to actually claim this was their preferred (powertrain / options) configuration.

Calling it a AWD Prius is both unfair and widely inaccurate, as is declaring it the LC the vast majority wanted to see.

 

[desmocruiser]

That is definately what we have been told

But overall toyota production volume is waaaay down over the last 10 years so I'm inclined to say that where there's a will there's a way.

And to be fair, I'm not suggesting that Toyota could sell 200k 70's each year in the US.....200k is the total units sold annually for Jeep and Bronco......

If those two are selling 200k each year and could sell more.....there's an indisputable customer demand for vehicles that fall into that use/feature set.

My hope is with the redesigned 70 series, the economy holds strong enough and that there is a market develop for a simple $80-$100k 70 series line in the US for consumers like many of us who will keep and use them for 20+ years.

Many other high quality low production products in the US exist and thrive because the entire market underneath has shifted to lesser quality cheaper products for the masses!

Find almost any example of high end products, perfect example, Sub Zero refrigerators, 12-18 month wait! Who needs a $15k refrigerator? Enough people to create year plus waitlist!!!

Time will tell

Looking at historical data, I suspect we will see 1-3 years of sales pushing 3-4k units to the early adopters

After that Toyota LC numbers will plummet and lexus sales will stumble along for a while longer.

This is the pattern of LC sales we've seen post 80 series in the US

I don’t think Toyota and Lexus will have concerns, heck the new union contracts just gave them another incredible advantage!


Sales didn’t really fall after the 80 series. Capacity just shifted heavily to Lexus badged series at that point.

 

[jayp2]

My hope is with the redesigned 70 series, the economy holds strong enough and that there is a market develop for a simple $80-$100k 70 series line in the US for consumers like many of us who will keep and use them for 20+ years.


Sales didn’t really fall after the 80 series. Capacity just shifted heavily to Lexus badged series at that point.

It would be nice if Toyota were to listen to customer demand for a change and bring a 70 like option to the US market.

Sales fell so far that they pulled the offering entirely from the US market a couple years ago.....ie it was no longer profitable

 

[desmocruiser]

It would be nice if Toyota were to listen to customer demand for a change and bring a 70 like option to the US market.

Sales fell so far that they pulled the offering entirely from the US market a couple years ago.....ie it was no longer profitable

It would be, sadly I don’t think there is enough of us!

Well, shifted 100% to Lexus now with the 300!

The Land Cruiser should be their Halo vehicle and those are not often profitable. I have no issue with the 250, they could have solved it just by offering a limited number ~2000 300 series GR Land Cruisers for $130k as the Halo vehicle alongside it, basically the put up or shut move!!!

 

[iliketrucks]

"sole" was my point.

'a lot'....depends on hundreds of variables.

i'm in no denial. everything i typed is true.

this fascination with MPGs above all else (which causes cars to become more complex, more expensive, and less reliable) is baffling.

make them less complex, cheaper to work on (keep them on the road longer...much less polution to rebuild a transmission vs. building an entire new car), less mining for batteries, less trucking/boating pollution (all these parts have to get to the factor somehow), lighter, smaller, and cheaper (no one needs $1000 each dancing LED head/tail lights....doesn't add to MPG or safety either.....so why?)

give me a NA V6 with a 6 speed in a tighter, lighter, cheaper, less complex truck. No affect on safety either!

less pollution TOO.

for example....they made the Rivian R1T and R1S so heavy its burning thru tires at a crazy rate.....while at the same tine we read articles about how used tires are causing polution issues. But it gets great MPGs!

Crazy man.

I generally agree with you. I want to also say that this MPG obsession isn't just coming from the government, but also consumers. The average person, who doesn't even know how to do an oil change, isn't going to understand why a different design (non hybrid) is going to be more reliable, and cheaper and easier to repair in the event that it isn't. They'll have to face the reality of that years down the road, and likely still won't care to learn why. They will be able to notice and appreciate when one car drinks less fuel than another, however.

It does suck for people like you and I that want choices.

 

[jayp2]

It would be, sadly I don’t think there is enough of us!

Well, shifted 100% to Lexus now with the 300!

The Land Cruiser should be their Halo vehicle and those are not often profitable. I have no issue with the 250, they could have solved it just by offering a limited number ~2000 300 series GR Land Cruisers for $130k as the Halo vehicle alongside it, basically the put up or shut move!!!

200k bronco and jeep sales every year state with bronco being sold out year over year clearly states that there is demand for another competitor in the segment (73/76 like model).

 

[M1911]

I generally agree with you. I want to also say that this MPG obsession isn't just coming from the government, but also consumers. The average person, who doesn't even know how to do an oil change, isn't going to understand why a different design (non hybrid) is going to be more reliable, and cheaper and easier to repair in the event that it isn't. They'll have to face the reality of that years down the road, and likely still won't care to learn why. They will be able to notice and appreciate when one car drinks less fuel than another, however.

It does suck for people like you and I that want choices.

Decades of experience with Toyota's hybrids has shown that they are not less reliable or more expensive to repair than Toyota's non-hybrids. In fact, the regen typically allows the brakes to last significantly longer than non-hybrid models.

 

[bugsnbikes]

The price of gas nationwide in the U.S. in 1993 when the (real) 80 was introduced was $1.11gallon. $25bucks to fill your tank and 13-15mpg
When the LC250 is released - we will probalbly be close to $4.00 gallon nationwide........4x the cost per gallon and barely 2x the range EVEN if it can get 27mpg. I think this is the main reason people are "concerned" with mpg.
Toyotas design window for the 1fz started in the mid 80s and it was produced worldwide 1993-2008 ! I would imagine Toyota has somewhat changed this design and production window to be somewhat shorter and more nimble......but my take is that the LC250 motor will end up in various platforms and go thru a similar evolution and refinement. It may not last 25 years like the 1fz.....but id bet it will be an ideal setup in one of the smaller platforms like a tacoma or 4runner. Also remember probably the MOST durable/successful motor in the U.S. market toyota ever made was the 22RE - a 4 banger. Id be perfectly happy with that legendary motors durability in a modern package that had enough juice to power a cruiser/ prado even if it got a few mpgs less than the same motor does in a lighter duty taco or 4runner platform.

 

[Phillyd2]

The price of gas nationwide in the U.S. in 1993 when the (real) 80 was introduced was $1.11gallon. $25bucks to fill your tank and 13-15mpg
When the LC250 is released - we will probalbly be close to $4.00 gallon nationwide........4x the cost per gallon and barely 2x the range EVEN if it can get 27mpg. I think this is the main reason people are "concerned" with mpg.
Toyotas design window for the 1fz started in the mid 80s and it was produced worldwide 1993-2008 ! I would imagine Toyota has somewhat changed this design and production window to be somewhat shorter and more nimble......but my take is that the LC250 motor will end up in various platforms and go thru a similar evolution and refinement. It may not last 25 years like the 1fz.....but id bet it will be an ideal setup in one of the smaller platforms like a tacoma or 4runner. Also remember probably the MOST durable/successful motor in the U.S. market toyota ever made was the 22RE - a 4 banger. Id be perfectly happy with that legendary motors durability in a modern package that had enough juice to power a cruiser/ prado even if it got a few mpgs less than the same motor does in a lighter duty taco or 4runner platform.

1.11 would be 2.36 in today's dollars so not 4X but point taken. Another point is that those that may be so price sensitive maybe shouldn't even consider a blocky SUV like the LC.

 

[desmocruiser]

I can’t disagree the 250 is an ideal adventure machine size.

What are the modifications you would do in order to improve it’s off road ability?

 

[M1911]

I can’t disagree the 250 is an ideal adventure machine size.

What are the modifications you would do in order to improve it’s off road ability?

33" tires and rock sliders. If the factory skids aren't great, then skids. That's it. Now if you are intending to do the Rubicon Trail, that's a whole different ball of wax, but think carefully before you go down that road -- it will get expensive fast and you may get to the point where you've made it a good off-roader but a terrible daily.

 

[desmocruiser]

33" tires and rock sliders. If the factory skids aren't great, then skids. That's it. Now if you are intending to do the Rubicon Trail, that's a whole different ball of wax, but think carefully before you go down that road -- it will get expensive fast and you may get to the point where you've made it a good off-roader but a terrible daily.

I would agree, lift and sliders are a necessity.

I bet T has a accessory lift like they have for Tacoma, 4R, Tundra, Seq. available at dealers, good or bad they see the opportunity. Will be nice to have a factory approved option, but they suck at the slider game and they will need Slee etc. to deliver a quality and good looking product!

The aftermarket off road bumper design will likely be the most intriguing development, the angles could sure use improving and there could be some designs that enhance the look and set it apart from some of rigs of similar appearance.

 

[Phillyd2]

It will be interesting to see the aftermarket off road bumper options for both the 250 and 550.

 

[M1911]

I would agree, lift and sliders are a necessity.

I wouldn't go for a lift. I'm guessing you can fit 33" tires without a lift.

I bet T has a accessory lift like they have for Tacoma, 4R, Tundra, Seq. available at dealers, good or bad they see the opportunity. Will be nice to have a factory approved option, but they suck at the slider game and they will need Slee etc. to deliver a quality and good looking product!

The aftermarket off road bumper design will likely be the most intriguing development, the angles could sure use improving and there could be some designs that enhance the look and set it apart from some of rigs of similar appearance.

If you put on aftermarket bumpers then you are off to the races financially. You can expect several thousand $ for the bumpers. You'll need a lift and stiffer springs. You'll then add heavier and larger tires. The rig will be hundreds if not a thousand pounds heavier. Your fuel economy will suffer significantly. None of us are suspension engineers and we don't have the finances, expertise, or facilities of Toyota to properly tune the suspension to the taller, heavier vehicle.

No thank you.

Edited to add: As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in a different thread. Some years back I was at an LCDC event in Telluride. We'd done Imogene Pass and I was in a parking lot in Ouray airing up my tires. A guy on a KTM dual sport bike got off his motorcycle and came over to me. He told that he'd had a 200. He lifted it, put on bumpers, new springs and shocks, upper control arms, 34" tires, roof rack, lockers, regeared, rock sliders, skid plates, etc. After he was done with it, he realized that he now hated driving it and he sold it. He said he should done what I did: 33" tires and rock sliders and called it done.