Welding on factory frames Tua’h (4 Viewers)

[bobm]

Way back in 83 or 84 I spent several weeks in Lovelock, NV drilling a supply well for a huge natural gas storage tank site. Every inch of weld on that tank was x-rayed. Turns out certified welders can’t weld perfect either, Bob.

View attachment 3963617

Never claimed all certified welders could weld @gonzopancho just the ones that Iv'e known during my lifetime. The ones that can't probably read the Cobweb covered 3rd edition instead of the 5th . Pig looks great, glad ya driving it .

 

[J Mack]

You can’t trigger me. I got to drive my pig today for the first time in many months.

I am beyond excited for you, no one deserves to drive a new pig project more than you! I cant wait until you get to drive the rest of them..

But on street-driven vehicles? I’m gonna quote the best opinion I ever heard, “it’s a hobby, there are no wrong answers.”

You're 100% correct on all accounts and I don't believe I've said anything different.. My questions to the rest of the peanut gallery should have been phrased differently to exclude you and I'm still sorry for making you sad.

Seems to be silent on the subject, fren. Got a page number?

I started this thread and said I have certain beliefs on the subject of automotive frame repair and modification, I’m not an expert but my beliefs are mine and if anyone is willing let’s talk about the subject and see if we can learn something new and maybe help someone else in the process.

You have made comments like.

“ I'm sure I've forgotten everything I did back in college on finite element simulations of welded structures, so you're probably right.”

“If you want to continue, let me know if you're asking about notch stress concentration factor of fillet welds or something else.”

You sounded at the time like you might have some real knowledge on the subject and “YES” I did have and still do more questions but didn’t want to offend you by asking them somewhere inappropriate. I felt like this was the right place to ask questions and talk about interesting subjects that pertain to building 4X4 station wagons.

Early on in this thread you posted a link to a weld theory book and said that book would answer all the asked questions, later you said “Please reference section 2.2.3 (p 13-14) of the work I posted first in this thread on why controlling your weld pool (“puddle”) size is important”

I’ve read that section and a bit beyond and asked you “as someone that has read all 267 pages” what are your thought on this “new” technique of making your MIG welds on steel look like TIG welds on aluminum (stacking dimes). You didn’t give a direct answer and said you are just getting back into it so I gave you some examples to explain the process with a video showing a couple guys that are very good at it telling you to turn the machine down and use smaller wire stacking weld on top (cold joint) to give it the TIG weld look. I posted a second video with what appears to be an older guy saying basically the same thing and doing some testing but giving his opinion on why you shouldn’t do it. J F Lancaster talks about proper weld penetration in the “book” and I agree if we are welding for strength the stack of dimes weld is not a process we would do, it should be considered ornamental welding and limited to non-critical areas if failure would cause harm.

Since you Bob and I are the only ones asking each other questions and he and I mostly agree on everything would you mind sharing your thoughts on supporting a frame during welding?

When you were in college and sitting in your finite element simulations of welded structures class what did they talk about warping the structure during the process?



Hope you have a great day and get some quality miles on that new pig!!

 

[WarDamnEagle]

You won’t last a shift with that attitude.

Someone has to put the slips in the bushing or pull them, or step in to guide the joint into the stem, or to place the next 40’ section of casing on top of the last one.

Sometimes if the string of casing is heavy you have to use a hammer to set the slips or even run a bead above the slips to give it all something to grab. That means you’re heads down / ass up under the load, so not standing and I guess “OSHA approved”?

View attachment 3963678

Those are suspended but guided loads. Very different than saying "...put 100T of load on it and stand under or even work under the ****ing thing". I've been around the oil patch a bit but thankfully never had to work there. Pretty sure you can do all those jobs without putting your body directly under the load. It's not ideal but usually okay to be in the shadow of the load as long as it's safely guided. And you wouldn't last a shift on any petrochemical plant construction project if you get caught standing or walking under a suspended load (at least not in the US or Europe).

 

[bobm]

Gittin Deep

 

[gonzopancho]

Gittin Deep

RC Farms was my next to least favorite pump job. The wasn't that deep, but it was slippery.

 

[gonzopancho]

I am beyond excited for you, no one deserves to drive a new pig project more than you! I cant wait until you get to drive the rest of them..

You're 100% correct on all accounts and I don't believe I've said anything different.. My questions to the rest of the peanut gallery should have been phrased differently to exclude you and I'm still sorry for making you sad.


I started this thread and said I have certain beliefs on the subject of automotive frame repair and modification, I’m not an expert but my beliefs are mine and if anyone is willing let’s talk about the subject and see if we can learn something new and maybe help someone else in the process.

You have made comments like.

“ I'm sure I've forgotten everything I did back in college on finite element simulations of welded structures, so you're probably right.”

“If you want to continue, let me know if you're asking about notch stress concentration factor of fillet welds or something else.”

Perhaps you're doing a lot better than me and have figured out how to retain the specifics of things you've not touched for 40 years. Most days I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday. I tried some of the kid's E&M homework problems 6-7 years ago and ODEs/PDEs, a subject I really worked at 40-ish years ago, are just ... gone, and I'm not even a grandfather yet.

The issue was (and still is, afaik) that most of FEA (or FEM) is done in the linear elastic region. The stresses and strains are established without considering defects and higher order effects. I'm not sure what is being done to model cyclic loads.

Notch stress (K(t)) is a real thing. For example, for a (circular) hole in a plate under stress, K(t) can be 3. This means that stress at the edge of the hole is 3x the nominal stress in the plate. I don't see anyone warning about drilling a hole in the frame.

Specific to fillet weld stress analysis, here's a video . Here is another:

Specific to the hardness of the material (which informed the arguments about if Toyota uses a HSS or low carbon steel) Stress and Crack Growth in Fillet Welds - https://youtu.be/cz6lDp8-H8o?t=439

Early on in this thread you posted a link to a weld theory book and said that book would answer all the asked questions,

I specifically said it was non-required background reading.

later you said “Please reference section 2.2.3 (p 13-14) of the work I posted first in this thread on why controlling your weld pool (“puddle”) size is important”

I’ve read that section and a bit beyond and asked you “as someone that has read all 267 pages”

seemed snarky, but then, we both do.

The thread then departed into various opinions on grades of steel with several people insisting that these frames from the 1970s must be a HSLA steel, or even a high carbon steel.

Larger trucks in the 1970s had these, (I vaguely remember the warning etched into the frame about welding on same) and certainly today Detroit has moved to use them, and hydroforming, and the result is that they're typically non-repairable, (link) but all of our trucks were made well before this was the state of play for SUVs.

what are your thought on this “new” technique of making your MIG welds on steel look like TIG welds on aluminum (stacking dimes). You didn’t give a direct answer and said you are just getting back into it so I gave you some examples to explain the process with a video showing a couple guys that are very good at it telling you to turn the machine down and use smaller wire stacking weld on top (cold joint) to give it the TIG weld look. I posted a second video with what appears to be an older guy saying basically the same thing and doing some testing but giving his opinion on why you shouldn’t do it. J F Lancaster talks about proper weld penetration in the “book” and I agree if we are welding for strength the stack of dimes weld is not a process we would do, it should be considered ornamental welding and limited to non-critical areas if failure would cause harm.

I'm generally not going to offer an uninformed opinion, other than "I do/don't like it." I don't have an opinion on 'stacking dimes'. I don't know how to do it, but I do plan to try. (pic of my son welding over a decade ago included for ... distraction.)

Since you Bob and I are the only ones asking each other questions and he and I mostly agree on everything would you mind sharing your thoughts on supporting a frame during welding?

supporting any workpiece is important, but the work can be done without it. That's why I posted that picture of the lattice (laced) frame on the pump rig.
I do agree with your recommendation to check the straightness (before and after would be best) on a frame table.

When you were in college and sitting in your finite element simulations of welded structures class what did they talk about warping the structure during the process?

No. As above, FEM is typically done while the stresses are still in the elastic region.

Hope you have a great day and get some quality miles on that new pig!!

Thanks.

 

[Hornd]

 

[J Mack]

I'm not even a grandfather yet.

Oh just wait they are the best ever.. Had I known how great they are I would have had a dozen and bypassed having kids altogether. Imagine little humans that love you unconditionally and everything is smiles and chocolate cookies then you send them home when fun time is over. Mine are getting into their teenage years still looking forward to what this stage brings.

seemed snarky, but then, we both do.

That’s because I’m talking to you like a friend, I’m laughing at myself when I type my replies hoping to get a rise out of you.. All my real friends can dish it out as well as they can take it and you need thick skin, I’m not sure any of them possess the ability to not be offensive. I need to remind myself constantly when I jump off a group chat with real friends and jump on the internet with my pretend friends I need to apply the filter. As always I hope there are no hard feelings and I’m happy to remove my comments from your build thread if that would get you back posting updates there.

(pic of my son welding over a decade ago included for ... distraction.)

That makes my day when I see kids doing stuff like this, my shop is always open to friends and relatives that have younger kids. We'll stop work for a day or two and just hang out making cool stuff on cool tools..

supporting any workpiece is important, but the work can be done without it. That's why I posted that picture of the lattice (laced) frame on the pump rig.
I do agree with your recommendation to check the straightness (before and after would be best) on a frame table.

You are correct it’s not always possible/ practical to clamp/weld the work to a fixture but I will always try to brace/strong back the local area around the weld which is almost always possible with a little thought and scrap steel.

Taking good measurements before you start is key, length from known spot to known spot like hole or mount in three directions X, Y and diagonal. I use paint pens and write the measurements on the frame rails next to the spot I measured from. I’ve been known to drill a small witness hole with a center drill to get a precise location if nothing exist, sharpie marks have a nasty habit of disappearing especially when you’re grinding then cleaning with acetone prepping areas for weld.

If you are going to support the frame try to make it level side to side front to back before you start, this makes it easy to check what moved after the fact and help you get back to where you started. Obviously supporting the frame with four jack stands two on the front frame horns and two on rear before you weld in the center is less than ideal. Even if you have the ability to push and pull on a frame it sucks and you would want to keep it to a minimum if you can.

So what do we do if the frame warped beyond your expectations, pots in the floor are supper handy to attach chain but realistically not something most of us would do. I’ve used I-beam and grade 80 or 100 chain and hydraulic jacks/porta powers to move long sections, on something light like a Land Cruiser frame big timber or logs could work just need a way to “strap the high” and “push the low” to get back to something straight in the direction it warped. Yes you can heat with a torch but that’s my least favorite method.

One last thought for those that may not know back in the day before computers we would get a frame spec sheet that looked something like this.

We would hang tram gauges from points along the frame that looked like this.

These gauges would hang down at a precise distance from locations along the frame rails and had a center pointer on each, once you had them all set you would sight down from the rear and the front and between the center pointer and the level or out of level beam on the gauges you could visually see exactly any out of square or bends in your frame. The reason I bring this up if I were going to tackle a major frame project I didn’t have a frame table or jig I would make some quick tram gauges to hang from my existing frame (1/2” conduit and 3/8” all thread would work for this) and map out my frame. Once you’re done hang your gauges check all your center points line up and all your bars are still level to each other. This will give you a fighting chance to get back to where you started, the more the better but for what we are doing here 6 would be a great start.

 

[Ol Yeller]

I don’t think I’ll pass a test after but I feel like I’m learning in here, thanks to those sharing some knowledge.

Jim I love reading the bit about grandkids, our 2 kids are up helping my folks at the ranch and making memories that will last a lifetime, there is no replacement for doing cool things with the kids (ours are 19 & 21 now)

The Mud forum feels a lot like a construction site most days, thick skin and a sense of humor makes the experience very rewarding

 

[gonzopancho]

Oh just wait they are the best ever.. Had I known how great they are I would have had a dozen and bypassed having kids altogether. Imagine little humans that love you unconditionally and everything is smiles and chocolate cookies then you send them home when fun time is over. Mine are getting into their teenage years still looking forward to what this stage brings.

man, if he started *today* I'd be 80 by the time a grandchild was 16.

That’s because I’m talking to you like a friend, I’m laughing at myself when I type my replies hoping to get a rise out of you..

and you're welcome to do so.

be aware that I run a very large open source project, with over 1m installs and people on the internet hate me.
I'm serious, ask @PabloCruise. He's seen a little of it.

I'm very, very used to it, though sometimes it takes a third beer to forget about them. some of them have a vendetta.

All my real friends can dish it out as well as they can take it and you need thick skin, I’m not sure any of them possess the ability to not be offensive. I need to remind myself constantly when I jump off a group chat with real friends and jump on the internet with my pretend friends I need to apply the filter. As always I hope there are no hard feelings and I’m happy to remove my comments from your build thread if that would get you back posting updates there.

no filter required, and happy to 'trade paint'.

That makes my day when I see kids doing stuff like this, my shop is always open to friends and relatives that have younger kids. We'll stop work for a day or two and just hang out making cool stuff on cool tools..


You are correct it’s not always possible/ practical to clamp/weld the work to a fixture but I will always try to brace/strong back the local area around the weld which is almost always possible with a little thought and scrap steel.

that crate on the floor is a fixture table. that's new to me, but they seem cool. More for production use, but, it was supposed to be faster than building one on my own. didn't work out.

Taking good measurements before you start is key, length from known spot to known spot like hole or mount in three directions X, Y and diagonal. I use paint pens and write the measurements on the frame rails next to the spot I measured from. I’ve been known to drill a small witness hole with a center drill to get a precise location if nothing exist, sharpie marks have a nasty habit of disappearing especially when you’re grinding then cleaning with acetone prepping areas for weld.

If you are going to support the frame try to make it level side to side front to back before you start,

Mark has a frame jib built out of I-beams and another that is built from large section rectangular tube. These are more about "index" (as you're describing) than pulling things back into shape. He did twist a frame horn back straight on the front of batpig early on.

He didn't seem to view it as necessary for what he was doing to the pig.

 

[J Mack]

Mark has a frame jib built out of I-beams and another that is built from large section rectangular tube. He didn't seem to view it as necessary for what he was doing to the pig.

I have so many questions why a guy with his talent, budget, timeline and resources would do that but I know now is not the time.. Maybe we’ll be at the same camp site sitting around the same camp fire some day and we can talk about it while you drink your three beers…
FYI: I fixed the offending post and it won’t happen again!

So let’s talk about weld settings…

I’m only adding this part so you don’t think I’m an expert… “Do your own research I’m an idiot that hits $hit with hammers”…

Yes I passed a weld certification but no I’m not a certified welder. I worked for a ISO company and we took on a new client “Toyota” and they required a higher ISO rating than we had, My entire crew needed to get weld certified as part of that, long story short I thought if my guys need to do I’ll do it with them and that’s what we did.. When you get weld certified there are several different layers, United Association UA-Cert that usually means you work for a union welding pipe line and actually know a thing or two all the way down to a company certifying you to pass an ISO rating, my certification was nothing more than a gold star next to my name on the company white board and they erased all of it when I left..



We’ve recently seen some pictures on some build threads and as I just learned recently build threads are strictly show and tell not Q & A so let’s not talk about offensive stuffs in un-approved areas and do it here.

OK let’s dig in, we’ve all seen the new rage of “Stack O Dimes” MIG welding on frames and frame components and thought dang I need to step-up my Stack O Dime welding technique…. I posted a video of a crew of guys that are very good at the “Stack O Dimes “technique and I posted that video because they talk about settings to achieve the desired result..

.030”wire, 18 Volts, Speed about 200 IPM (Inches Per Minute) for ¼” plate according to the first guy and..

.030” wire 16 to 16.5 Volts, Speed 150-170 IPM for ¼” plate according to the second guy



For context I’ll post a picture of one of the many “cheat sheets” floating around my shop and it has some good start setting for my welder, my welder has way too many features (computer controlled) and it’s easy for me with all the other stuff going on to forget some of the basics and this sheet reminds me quickly were to get started.. If you don’t have IPM and volt settings on your machine a quick way to get ballpark is pull the trigger on your machine and count to 6, measure the wire stick out and add a zero that’s you IPM. Get something close to my chart and start adding voltage, if you have spatter the size of the welding wire you need more voltage, If the arc burns back up inside the tip you have too much voltage and adjust from there..

My start sheet is always plus/ minus very little of my final settings for 90% for what I do here so I’m comfortable to call these my settings. If I’m welding on a frame (like Toyota fj55) and I want it to stick I’ll start in the ¼” range on my sheet and could get into the 5/16” range depending on how I feel. I only weld with .035” wire if I’m doing frame work so my start setting would be..

.035” wire, 20 volts and a speed of about 260 IPM, this is significantly hotter then what these guys are talking about. If we use my sheet they are welding 1/4“plate with between 18Ga and 12Ga settings and are literally setting some pretty weld globs on top of the base material (and if you’ve read the 276 Pages of the third edition) you would know weld penetration is a thing and you should do it.

It would be hard to make the argument if we are welding on ¼” plate with 18Ga settings regardless how pretty the weld that it’s going to be a “good” weld but for whatever reason this is the new accepted norm, am I just completely out of touch??

Am, I missing some important detail and one of you can set me straight? I was hoping to ask one of the guys that post these weld pictures as the gold standard but I don’t believe we can have that conversation publicly. I have to believe I’m the only one out here thinking smooth welds are still gooder. If I set my machine with .035” wire, 20V and 260ish IPM on ¼” plate I can do the whoop-dee-doo, over under, every lower case vowel, some of the upper case vowels, side ways U’s, ziz-zags and hula hoops and nothing nets the lumpy welds (stack of dimes) unless I turn my machine way down below recommended start settings something I have a hard time doing on a frame that I want things to stick to.

What say you guys??

 

[gonzopancho]

All I have to say :

- We have Miller 255s up at BIO, and I just leave them set to whatever they were set at. is confusing, yo. Also, I produce software for my “real job”, and I fear getting distracted and annoyed by some obvious flaw in the screen interface that should not be there. Happens in cars and phone apps all the time. ****ing nerds.

I want away from that in what time I can liberate for me.

- I’m looking forward to getting that Miller 35 up and running. Knob (wire speed) and a set of plugs for amperage. Seems “tits” to me.

- you didn’t need to delete or modify your post. I didn’t ask, either.

- Make Stick Great Again. Every time I think about that tiny MIG wire I … have questions.

Then again, it’s not all tiny wire. Years after I left the drilling industry, dad moved away from the ole standby Lincoln 200s, and to a pair of Miller Big 10D wirefeed machines, running 1/4” wire.

Two machines so two welders could start at either side of large diameter casing and lay bead toward the other. No stopping to change the rod, which requires lifting the hood and thus getting a little cool air. The smokers always seemed to light one every time they lifted the hood, too. I can only imagine how much it sucked. Did save time though, and time is money, right?

- i was over at the shop earlier (gathering tools, because Pua’a 2 is new, and I like to be prepared), and found these “pocket pyrometers” that I knew I had. They’re an option if you don’t want to melt wax on your work, but they’re not as accurate as the crayons. TBH, IDK if they’re even made anymore.

- I’ve been thinking about your preference for an IR thermometer for a bit, (and discussing it with the kid, who has an actual physics degree)... so I “did my own research”, if you will…

I think the problem with IR thermometry is that it depends a lot on the surface emissivity of the material. I’ll omit what all the kid said about black body emissions, but stainless steel will read differently than aluminum at the same temperature, and the surface finish can affect the result as well (polished will read lower than rough).

IR temp measurement has to assume some emissivity in order to give a temperature, and if that assumption is wrong (and there are lots of ways to get it wrong), then the number you read on the screen is wrong.

And that’s before we get into the stability of a battery-powered device with a tiny ų processor (typically a PIC), with a low-resolution ADC, low sampling rates and a look up table to display the results.

****ing Chinesium circuit design, but “digital” so it must be right. Right?!? Don’t get me started on “digital” calipers from China, I’ll keep my Starrett, thanks.

The crayons, though low-tech, don't suffer from this.

 

[bobm]

Starrett or Mititoyo

 

[bobm]

Different peeps will have different settings every single time. The chart is a starting point and adjustments are made from that baseline. My opinion on the videos with the settings so low is it's an open corner that looks like minimal to no penetration. The only true way is do some coupons from steel aluminum and stainless in different thicknesses and send them to a mettalurgist lab. They can die test and xray to approve the coupons. Or do your own tests and cut them in half to check your penetration with specific materials and settings. Welding is like a signature. Everyone is different

 

[gonzopancho]

Starrett or Mititoyo

Assuming you mean Mitutoyo, they make good stuff, but I won’t buy from a company that helps Libya, North Korea and Iran build nukes.

If that makes me a liberal, “you do you”, Bob.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090331165655/http://nti.org/e_research/e3_90.html

 

[bobm]

Nor will I support China Mr. STARRETT (did I spell that right) do a little research on them

 

[gonzopancho]

Nor will I support China Mr. STARRETT (did I spell that right) do a little research on them

Sorry if I hurt your feelers, Bob.

 

[J Mack]

- I’ve been thinking about your preference for an IR thermometer for a bit, (and discussing it with the kid, who has an actual physics degree)... so I “did my own research”, if you will…

I think the problem with IR thermometry is that it depends a lot on the surface emissivity of the material. I’ll omit what all the kid said about black body emissions, but stainless steel will read differently than aluminum at the same temperature, and the surface finish can affect the result as well (polished will read lower than rough).

IR temp measurement has to assume some emissivity in order to give a temperature, and if that assumption is wrong (and there are lots of ways to get it wrong), then the number you read on the screen is wrong.

And that’s before we get into the stability of a battery-powered device with a tiny ų processor (typically a PIC), with a low-resolution ADC, low sampling rates and a look up table to display the results.

****ing Chinesium circuit design, but “digital” so it must be right. Right?!? Don’t get me started on “digital” calipers from China, I’ll keep my Starrett, thanks.

The crayons, though low-tech, don't suffer from this.

Yes you are correct but there are a few work arounds..
I have this old dinosaur that I believe I've had for 35 plus years, they were quite expensive when they first came out but I felt it was worth the money for what I was doing at the time.

From the instruction manual..

1. The ability of the object’s surface to emit heat. r In general, infrared thermometers can easily measure non-metallic surfaces because they emit most of their potential heat. Metallic surfaces, on the other hand, are poor emitters and require special treatment before infrared thermometers can accurately measure their temperature. Fortunately, that special treatment is simple and can be easily accomplished by marking the metallic surface you wish to measure with a non-metallic substance such as paint,grease, oil or even transparent tape. We recommend marking metallic surfaces with a solid paint marker.* To make things easy, Exergen provides a marker with each unit.

D501

D501 quick delivery, authorized Exergen distributor. Offers complete line of Temperature Sensors – T/C, RTD, Infrared . Easy online ordering, rewards program, and great pricing.

www.wolfautomation.com

Better than the $20.00 Chinese Amazon unit but I guess they both have their place.

My opinion on the Tempilstik- temperature indicating sticks is they suck and unless you have a specific reason to use them like job requirement then don’t mess with them. They don't necessarily tell you what the temperature is they will only tell you what it isn't... At 200° stick will melt at 200° plus or minus 1%.. so if it doesn't melt the surface isn't 200° if it melts rapidly it's hotter than 200° either way you still don't know what the temperature is.
If you're very close to 200° and it just starts to melt then you know you're close..
When I was using them more you would always need half a bag of different temperatures and even though they are different colors it was always a PITA finding the correct one and then figuring out what temperature it was ..
Yeah for what we are talking about here (the guy at home working on his own stuff) I say the chase the moisture trick to get a little pre-heat is good enough..

 

[bobm]

Made in Newton Ma. U.S.A. Imagine that

 

[gonzopancho]

Yes you are correct but there are a few work arounds..
I have this old dinosaur that I believe I've had for 35 plus years, they were quite expensive when they first came out but I felt it was worth the money for what I was doing at the time.

View attachment 3965558

From the instruction manual..

1. The ability of the object’s surface to emit heat. r In general, infrared thermometers can easily measure non-metallic surfaces because they emit most of their potential heat. Metallic surfaces, on the other hand, are poor emitters and require special treatment before infrared thermometers can accurately measure their temperature. Fortunately, that special treatment is simple and can be easily accomplished by marking the metallic surface you wish to measure with a non-metallic substance such as paint,grease, oil or even transparent tape. We recommend marking metallic surfaces with a solid paint marker.* To make things easy, Exergen provides a marker with each unit.

D501

D501 quick delivery, authorized Exergen distributor. Offers complete line of Temperature Sensors – T/C, RTD, Infrared . Easy online ordering, rewards program, and great pricing.

www.wolfautomation.com

Better than the $20.00 Chinese Amazon unit but I guess they both have their place.

My opinion on the Tempilstik- temperature indicating sticks is they suck and unless you have a specific reason to use them like job requirement then don’t mess with them. They don't necessarily tell you what the temperature is they will only tell you what it isn't... At 200° stick will melt at 200° plus or minus 1%.. so if it doesn't melt the surface isn't 200° if it melts rapidly it's hotter than 200° either way you still don't know what the temperature is.
If you're very close to 200° and it just starts to melt then you know you're close..
When I was using them more you would always need half a bag of different temperatures and even though they are different colors it was always a PITA finding the correct one and then figuring out what temperature it was ..
Yeah for what we are talking about here (the guy at home working on his own stuff) I say the chase the moisture trick to get a little pre-heat is good enough..

If the younger crowd can’t wait for you to pass it down they can always get a Fluke 62+ or (more spendy) Fluke 566.

“If it works, it’s a Fluke!”

(Everett, WA)