The $ 30.88 Snorkel !

[The Moe]

I'm in.

And for those who say don't buy chinese...you already are. VERY few products, and I mean VERY VERY few are actually made in North America. Even if it says made in the USE, it is often just assembled there and that allows the company to put the sticker/label on it.

Honestly, regardless of what ARB says, I doubt they don't have a TON of stuff originating in China (even if they don't know it).

Regardless, I'm in.

Craig.

Sadly, I have to agree that. It is quiet true... It's not a secret that a lot of the big dogs are probably supplied by the same Chinese manufacturers , just with more personlized products and cleaner finish... The label makes all the differense... That is true at least with the items that are not very sophisticated or the ones using hi tech materials... Actually, I take that back, China is the single biggest exporter of hi tech materials these days...

 

[ExtremeCruiser92]

Count me in, I'll take a chance with them, with a price like that why say no.. so every one that is making home made snorkels coping ARB?

 

[Brunt Force Trauma]

I love supporting vendors as much as I can. But I am broke. So if this come to be, count me in.

 

[Impreza]

Oh really? You say this as you're driving a "knockoff"?

Competition drives innovation. That's been proven time and time again. It's also the standard life cycle of a product. Someone invents/designs a product, sells it for a premium. Other companies step in, "copy" the product, and sell for less.

Jeep comes out with a truck (the original Jeep). Toyota copies it.

Toyota comes out with the FZJ-80. Companies "copy" their starter, alternator, belts, hoses, wires....snorkles......

You have literally thousands of companies who are copying companies across the market. Last I head Toyota hasn't published an announcement saying "someone's ripping off our starters, alternators, etc with cheap aftermarket parts, at a lower price than what we sell them for! We're not coming out with a new Land Cruiser this year because of it!"

I highly doubt that ARB is no longer going to make snorkles because some Chinese company has decided to produce a knock off. Why? Because ARB still sells tons of snorkles, despite the fact that the Chinese company is out there. Just like Makita and Dewalt sell tons of power tools, despite the fact that some of us buy Chicago Electric (Harbor Freight) power tools.

The market is big enough to support both, believe it or not.



Put simply enough....if ARB can't compete (successfully) with a Chinese company producing a cheap knockoff that uses cheap parts, has poor QA, and little effort put into it, then quite frankly they don't deserve to stay in business. Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chevy, and the rest have been competing with cheap after market companies for years, and doing so quite successfully (their failures can't be pinned on companies selling after market parts).

Way to compare apples to oranges. Big corporations and small businesses have a wee bit different standpoint.

If a particular (perhaps smaller) vendor decides to develop a new item but then immediately duplicated, you tell me if that's fair? Sometimes it is not the material that is valuable but the R&D. For these less expensive items, there are no real protection like big companies including auto manufacturers, electronic hardware, and pharmaceuticals. Ask why would somebody go through all that time developing a product that may never turn a dime? Not everybody can hire a dream team of lawyers all ready to go if somebody steals your design.

Who's making a counterfit 80-series Land Cruiser, because I want to know. I'd totally consider one too!



And for people who make their own stuff, more power to you. I totally wish I could build my own junk.

 

[VanGo]

....coping a concept, not a product- big difference.

.. so every one that is making home made snorkels coping ARB?

 

[VanGo]

....then save your coin and continue to support MUD vendors.

I love supporting vendors as much as I can. But I am broke. So if this come to be, count me in.

 

[The Moe]

Ok, it seems like we have a decent number of folks who wants them... that means if we can hit the 30 units mark we can upgrade to sea fright shipping and slash the shipping cost dramatically... I am still waiting on the manufacturer to confirm the shipping cost ( I told them that if the shipping cost is high they can forget it... ) this simple stratgy works pretty good with such suppliers, they are disperate... it probably cost them less than 7 bucks to make the thing any penny they can shell over that is profit... so, I am working on reserching OTHER shipping options and waiting for them to tell me more about a sample I requested... to have a solid picture here... When I have that done, I will check how many people wants it and then make an order...

 

[firetruck41]

Way to compare apples to oranges. Big corporations and small businesses have a wee bit different standpoint.

If a particular (perhaps smaller) vendor decides to develop a new item but then immediately duplicated, you tell me if that's fair? Sometimes it is not the material that is valuable but the R&D. For these less expensive items, there are no real protection like big companies including auto manufacturers, electronic hardware, and pharmaceuticals. Ask why would somebody go through all that time developing a product that may never turn a dime? Not everybody can hire a dream team of lawyers all ready to go if somebody steals your design.

Who's making a counterfit 80-series Land Cruiser, because I want to know. I'd totally consider one too!



And for people who make their own stuff, more power to you. I totally wish I could build my own junk.

ARB is not a small vendor, they can afford lawyers, if they choose.

If a 'mud vendor/retailer finds their ARB products can not be sold cheap enough, and they want to sell more volume, they could probably get a container load of these chinese snorkels/etc. and sell them.

 

[headhunter]

if a product wasnt way over priced then there would not be knock offs. Now Im not much on chinese products but Ive got a $400 safari snorkel on my 80 that like Moe said they might have 7 bucks in. And the fit and finish was ok but not flawless.

 

[rhyary]

You guys are going to drill a big hole in your truck to see if it is going to work? Wow!

Say the $30 snorkel does not work, you say, I will just put the Safari there. But, what if the holes you drill not align correctly with the Safari and the $30 is no longer made, and what you have 5 years later is wrapped?

 

[VanGo]

I wonder how much a new quarter panel would cost? .... and Dan does not ship sheet metal.

You guys are going to drill a big hole in your truck to see if it is going to work? Wow!

Say the $30 snorkel does not work, you say, I will just put the Safari there. But, what if the holes you drill not align correctly with the Safari and the $30 is no longer made, and what you have 5 years later is wrapped?

 

[bhmmapping]

I wonder how much a new quarter panel would cost? .... and Dan does not ship sheet metal.

anyone considering a 30 dollar snorkel would not even get a quote on a new quarter panel. you could find a used one cheap in the parting section, probably in a matched color.

 

[The Moe]

Well, I appreciate all the opinions here... But I like to clearfy something first... If I was going to get a sample I will not just try to make it fit... I will analize it, compair it to similar products' specs... and even do a detailed writeup with all the finds, maybe a tutorial with a new accurate tamplete if one was needed... I thought that was one of the main purposes of this forum, to share experiences, knowledge... and make the next person's experience with the issue a little better than the one before... Again, I am going to get one of these snorkels... and I will check the ups and downs, and see what I can do to Enhance it if that was needed. Wish me luck buddies

 

[landtank]

The number one issue with anything plastic is if it's UV resistant. There is no way in hell that I'd take a chance on this snorkel because of that single concern and the possibility of the ensuing damage to a 6k motor if it fails.

As far as knock offs goes, it's going to happen. As a designer/vendor all you can do is keep manufacturing costs and profit margins low enough to discourage it. That and hope people appreciate what you've done and continue to support you in hopes of fueling more innovative products from you.

As far as those wally world type vendors who basically buy wholesale and sell retail, Oh well, you're just in the market to make money anyway so if you loose a little that's just part of the game.

 

[Ebag333]

Way to compare apples to oranges. Big corporations and small businesses have a wee bit different standpoint.

If a particular (perhaps smaller) vendor decides to develop a new item but then immediately duplicated, you tell me if that's fair? Sometimes it is not the material that is valuable but the R&D. For these less expensive items, there are no real protection like big companies including auto manufacturers, electronic hardware, and pharmaceuticals. Ask why would somebody go through all that time developing a product that may never turn a dime? Not everybody can hire a dream team of lawyers all ready to go if somebody steals your design.

Who's making a counterfit 80-series Land Cruiser, because I want to know. I'd totally consider one too!

If you think it's unfair to compare ARB and Toyota (which is really not, they're both quite large market share wise for their markets), then how about taking someone like Luke at 4x4 Labs? He puts out his bumper for around $1k (depending on options). Now I can take a picture of that bumper, and I guarantee you that I can find someone who will make the "same" bumper for $300 or less (and not DIY).

Now that $300 bumper probably won't be quarter inch steel. And it might not be straight. And it might not fit quite right. And it might not hold up to any abuse. And it might not be done for a couple months. And it won't be laser cut and folded. And it might look like a $300 bumper instead of a $1k bumper. But hey, it's $300 and it's a cheap knock off of Luke's 4x4 Labs bumper! OHNOES! LUKE IS GOING OUT OF BUSINESS!


Is Luke worried about that? Last I checked he was so busy he doesn't have time to answer the phone....so I guess not. And I'm betting that the person who gets the $300 knock off bumper will probably buy Luke's next time when said $300 bumper gets destroyed on the trail.

If Luke's bumper can't compete against the $300 knock off, then Luke doesn't deserve to be in business. But Luke's quality is going to be much higher, his expertise is greater, his knowledge much more abundant, and customer support much better. So he will have no problem what-so-ever with competing, because (as you so cleverly put) it's "apples to oranges."

Cheap knock offs are just that, cheap knock offs. There will always be some people buying them, but 99% of the time those people aren't going to be buying the "real" product anyway, so theres no lost sales. When I bought my $19.99 Chicago Electric drill, Dewalt/Makita/etc didn't lose a sale, because I couldn't afford their drill. And I miss a lot of the features found on the nicer drills, so next time I go to buy one, guess what I'm probably going to buy? Not the cheap knock off. So in a way, they're actually gaining a sale they wouldn't otherwise.

 

[VanGo]

You have had two major vendors ( Christo and Landtank) as well as several experienced members que in on your adventure to bye this knock-off snorkel and yet you continue against their advise- that to me is not using the forum to make an informed decision. Your description of MUD is accurate, but your agenda to buy this inferior product is not. Good luck.

Well, I appreciate all the opinions here... But I like to clearfy something first... If I was going to get a sample I will not just try to make it fit... I will analize it, compair it to similar products' specs... and even do a detailed writeup with all the finds, maybe a tutorial with a new accurate tamplete if one was needed... I thought that was one of the main purposes of this forum, to share experiences, knowledge... and make the next person's experience with the issue a little better than the one before... Again, I am going to get one of these snorkels... and I will check the ups and downs, and see what I can do to Enhance it if that was needed. Wish me luck buddies

 

[Uncle Grumpy]

I fully believe in supporting the community that supports us and there is no doubt that the products are a direct copy and inferior to the ARB/Safari. I'd bet that it was also produced in a factory that doesn't come close to meeting Australian environmental, health, labor, and safety regulations which add to the costs.

Now I'll but on my Nomex underwear.

Snorkels have been around a long time so who's copying who? Air filtration is complicated but a snorkel is a f#@$ing plastic tube! Seriously what percentage of the cost can be attributed to R&D? It's diluted every production run but the price remains the same. A chemist was consulted for the optimal plastic for the application and a plastic molder contracted for production. I know it's not that simple and there are a lot of other costs but the Chinese are making a profit at $31. Even if it cost Safari $31 to make a snorkel at $400 that is 13x the cost or a 1300% mark up. Jesus de Christo!

I understand the expense in R&D for bumpers, racks, and suspension, that's why I pay a premium for them. I also understand the pride of ownership and paying for service, quality, and reliability. But, $400 for a plastic tube? I paid more than that for my OEM snorkel and every time I look at it I question my sanity. I should have put that money in my Short Bus fund.

 

[The Moe]

Uncle Grumpy you are correct... I agree with that 100% ... I still don't have a complete picture on the quality, U.V resistance, other factors but that dosn't mean these factors won't be met, or fixed if needed... Besides, I totally agrees that a plastic tube is a plastic tube...

Christo and Landtank along with ALL the mud members have my abslute respect and admiration... their impact on us all is appreciated indeed. I can understand all these points of view... But ALL I was trying to accomplish was to find out if there was another venue of opprtunety availabe for the LC owners... Ultimatly... I thought we can consider a possible product that could enhance our experiences... thats all... And speaking of Christo and Landtank... do you guys recall the debate between some of the mudders about Landtanks'MAF housing... a very creative, nifty introduction and seemed to have good potintials... We all had some opinions there but ultimatly everybody's intent was to help the others, regardless if they approved or disapproved that product... Bottom line... if I was a vendor I won't probably face that much of critisizim but I'm not one...;p... This leads me to the question : Are there any supporting vendors who want to adoped this project? test it or even supply it ? I would love to find a cheaper snorkel in the vendor's section to buy ....

 

[94SRUNNER]

I have to disagree with the comment "A plastic tube is a plastic tube".

There are so many directions I could go here, but I think that would be counter productive. I will just say all plastics and molding methods are not created equally!!!

 

[cody c]

I have to disagree with the comment "A plastic tube is a plastic tube".

There are so many directions I could go here, but I think that would be counter productive. I will just say all plastics and molding methods are not created equally!!!

I absolutely agree with you in terms of difference of quality, however...

a snorkel for $30.88 versus $360, if a chinese company can make money on a $30 snorkel, how much is Safari making? And I do prefer to support local vendors, and I have bought from most of them, but maybe they could give the cheap stuff a try too., because the better quality plastic and stainless hardware cant cost $330 more for production costs.

Although, I can also see vendors wanting to steer away from cheap stuff as it could be a hassle with warranties and build them a bad rep, but I dont have $450+ CAD (by the time it hits my door step) to spend on plastic and stainless hardware as much as Id like too. If the Safari snorkel was $100-$150 CAD i wouldnt even think about purchasing a cheaper copy. But I aint made of money either.