Frame off order of operations (1 Viewer)

[White Stripe]

A frame off restoration is a huge endeavor. I have seen a awful lot of people attempt a frame off here and then the updates taper off. Eventually it ends up in classifieds as a pile of parts for pennies. In my opinion, I would recommend saving your money, and just buy a nice rig that's mostly finished for 20k-the price of a new corolla. Make some small additions to make it yours and enjoy driving and maintaining it. Also, in my opinion powder coated frames are for hot rods not 4x4s. I'm not out to be cruel. Some will egg you on to go through with it, and a frame off sounds cool to do. But it's expensive and a long and hard road unless u got a ton of free time. And thats if you know exactly what your doing. Just buy one that's done and laugh at the poor guy who got it that way as you hand them the money.

 

[fjgdk]

Well thanks for the opinion, I’m still planning on doing it. There is no other way to learn.

Why are you opposed to powder coating these easy-to-corrode iron frame ? It makes sense to me.

 

[White Stripe]

Well thanks for the opinion, I’m still planning on doing it. There is no other way to learn.

Why are you opposed to powder coating these easy-to-corrode iron frame ? It makes sense to me.

Personally it's just my opinion others may have their own. Powder coat looks really nice, but if it chips as it often does on a 4x4 vehicle then winter melt corrosives can work their way under the powder coating and cause corrosion. In addition powder coat is only a superficial coating and doesn't get inside the frame channels. Personally I think something that gets everywhere and is resistant to chipping is better-such as hot dip galvanizing. Galvanizing is cheaper than powder coating, doesn't chip, and since the frame is dipped it gets everywhere on the frame.

 

[fjgdk]

Personally it's just my opinion others may have their own. Powder coat looks really nice, but if it chips as it often does on a 4x4 vehicle then winter melt corrosives can work their way under the powder coating and cause corrosion. In addition powder coat is only a superficial coating and doesn't get inside the frame channels. Personally I think something that gets everywhere and is resistant to chipping is better-such as hot dip galvanizing. Galvanizing is cheaper than powder coating, doesn't chip, and since the frame is dipped it gets everywhere on the frame.

OK now I understand your point about powder coating. It is something I will definitely consider in this rebuild.

Let me pick your brain a bit more if you don't mind, I like to hear all sides and opinions so I appreciate your input. :

1) Can you tell me if it is possible to both galvanize AND powder coat ? I wouldn't think it is possible because of the chemistry involved. However, I remember reading some thread on MUD where someone did both and didn't have any problems. That didn't sound right but I have no proof either way.

What is your opinion on both galvanizing and powder coating (the frame) ?

2) How would you coat the axles ? Anything that involves the possiblity of getting particulate (such as blasting abrasive) into the inside of the axles makes me worry and I am very weary of doing that.

3) What do you recommend for body paint ? What sort of stuff is it that is on the underside of the body that seems to have protected it from corrosion more than the frame ? Under my truck it looks like a light coat of black tar or something. I have seen posts of those re-painting the body having to go through the process of getting that tar-like stuff off. What is that stuff ?

 

[White Stripe]

OK now I understand your point about powder coating. It is something I will definitely consider in this rebuild.

Let me pick your brain a bit more if you don't mind, I like to hear all sides and opinions so I appreciate your input. :

1) Can you tell me if it is possible to both galvanize AND powder coat ? I wouldn't think it is possible because of the chemistry involved. However, I remember reading some thread on MUD where someone did both and didn't have any problems. That didn't sound right but I have no proof either way.

What is your opinion on both galvanizing and powder coating (the frame) ?

2) How would you coat the axles ? Anything that involves the possiblity of getting particulate (such as blasting abrasive) into the inside of the axles makes me worry and I am very weary of doing that.

3) What do you recommend for body paint ? What sort of stuff is it that is on the underside of the body that seems to have protected it from corrosion more than the frame ? Under my truck it looks like a light coat of black tar or something. I have seen posts of those re-painting the body having to go through the process of getting that tar-like stuff off. What is that stuff ?

1. I don't know honestly. Im sure some people have tried. Im pretty sure people have painted over it successfully. I think the key is roughing up the surface of the galvanizing so paint will stick to it.
2. For the axles, if you wanted you could always remove the rust and paint using electrolysis in a water bath. But you will have to wire brush it after because the electrolysis mostly lifts the rust/paint but the wire brush kinda finishes the job. I would probably use por15 or eastwood chassis paint on the axles using a spray on application to lay it down.
3. For paint ppg has some nice stuff. Cant remember what their premium brand is called. I don't know what that undercoating stuff is from the factory. Im sure someone on here does. It is kinda a mix between rubber and tar seems like.

 

[roostabunny]

MUD will assist me.

Also I don't order replacement parts until I'm completely ready to re-install everything. I don't know what I'll need until the decomposition is done. I had my whole front axle apart for 6 months doing my first birf job. Took everything apart, blasted and coated everything. Ordered new OEM caliper pistons for $10-$15 a piece and rebuilt and coated them. I'll take the time to do things right, which means "figure out" then "do", rather than just "do", which usually causes alot more problems.

You said decomposition - you in program management of some kind?

I'm a planner/researcher, and I've quite annoyed former profs, current clients, bosses, guys on MUD and other forums, my wife... with appearing to do nothing for longer than anyone's comfortable, then finishing the job on time and under budget. I also identify with taking 2 months to do a 2hr job (for me it's a combination of personal issues and professional habit).

Anyway, I'm also interested in this process, so I'll subscribe, and good luck!

 

[fjgdk]

2. For the axles, if you wanted you could always remove the rust and paint using electrolysis in a water bath. But you will have to wire brush it after because the electrolysis mostly lifts the rust/paint but the wire brush kinda finishes the job. I would probably use por15 or eastwood chassis paint on the axles using a spray on application to lay it down.

When I did my first axle job last year, I tried electrolysis on some of the parts. Through that I learned that the process is really "directional"; if there is not a straight path between a part of the anode and cathode then that part doesn't clean up well. For an intricate part like the calipers, even when I surrounded the whole thing (as opposed to just one side) with the sacrificial sheets of cathode there were still areas that really didn't clean up at all. I found that the process worked best for a home "chemist" like me on parts that were relatively "flat and simple". The old brake rotors cleaned up nice and easy, but I just did them as a first test of the electrolysis process and put new rotors on anyway. I later used the cleaned old rotors as the sacrificial piece for electrolysis.

In the end I found evapo-rust worked the best out of all the home de-rusting chemicals. The problem with that is that it is expensive ($80 for a 5-gallon bucket) and its effectiveness wears off with use.

 

[fjgdk]

When I did my first axle job last year, I tried electrolysis on some of the parts. Through that I learned that the process is really "directional"; if there is not a straight path between a part of the anode and cathode then that part doesn't clean up well. For an intricate part like the calipers, even when I surrounded the whole thing (as opposed to just one side) with the sacrificial sheets of cathode there were still areas that really didn't clean up at all. I found that the process worked best for a home "chemist" like me on parts that were relatively "flat and simple". The old brake rotors cleaned up nice and easy, but I just did them as a first test of the electrolysis process and put new rotors on anyway. I later used the cleaned old rotors as the sacrificial piece for electrolysis.

In the end I found evapo-rust worked the best out of all the home de-rusting chemicals. The problem with that is that it is expensive ($80 for a 5-gallon bucket) and its effectiveness wears off with use.

Here are aome shots of my hydrolysis setup doing a wheel hub using the old rotor and a clean piece of thin sheet metal as the sacrificial pieces:

 

[fjgdk]

You said decomposition - you in program management of some kind?

I'm a planner/researcher, and I've quite annoyed former profs, current clients, bosses, guys on MUD and other forums, my wife... with appearing to do nothing for longer than anyone's comfortable, then finishing the job on time and under budget. I also identify with taking 2 months to do a 2hr job (for me it's a combination of personal issues and professional habit).

Anyway, I'm also interested in this process, so I'll subscribe, and good luck!

Well I am a physicist by education but programmer by current trade. I experience the same thing you describe and it drives me up a wall (in various parts of my career and life).

I can understand if people are pressed for time if the vehicle is their daily driver. To NOT ask questions and think something through first is a mark of inexperience to me, not the other way around. Also, if I can't explain why I did something or why it worked/didn't, then I can't say I know what I'm doing. I will admit too, that much of what I've done so far as an amateur mechanic, I can't fully explain and so I will readily admit to saying "I don't know, all I can tell you is what process I copied from X or Y". Knowing what you don't know is more important than being able to say "I know".

In software development this problem is the worst. Usually management has some "business" background and tries to apply what they think and know to a problem that isn't in line with the one way of thinking they know. It strikes me that modern business education is derived from the early industrial revolution and is not geared towards problem solving and complexity. Software projects are not something you can simply "speed up" by throwing more people on. The thought process by management is typically "It takes fjgdk 80 hours to do x, so if we add 8 programmers we can get it done in 10 hours". Of course they spend more time doing this type of thinking than they do architecting and planning the solution so that the work CAN be broken up amongst many developers.

Anyway, thanks for giving me the audience to vent, I feel much better now heheh.

 

[White Stripe]

Here are aome shots of my hydrolysis setup doing a wheel hub using the old rotor and a clean piece of thin sheet metal as the sacrificial pieces:View attachment 1627625

View attachment 1627624
View attachment 1627626
View attachment 1627627

I had similar experiences as you when I did electrolysis until I turned up the amps. All the videos on youtube say to do a trickle charge, but that didn't work for me. So I cranked up the charging amps and then it worked pretty well. Even then it took 24 hours, and I would flip the part around half way through to aid in rust removal.

 

[roostabunny]

Well I am a physicist by education but programmer by current trade. I experience the same thing you describe and it drives me up a wall (in various parts of my career and life).

I can understand if people are pressed for time if the vehicle is their daily driver. To NOT ask questions and think something through first is a mark of inexperience to me, not the other way around. Also, if I can't explain why I did something or why it worked/didn't, then I can't say I know what I'm doing. I will admit too, that much of what I've done so far as an amateur mechanic, I can't fully explain and so I will readily admit to saying "I don't know, all I can tell you is what process I copied from X or Y". Knowing what you don't know is more important than being able to say "I know".

In software development this problem is the worst. Usually management has some "business" background and tries to apply what they think and know to a problem that isn't in line with the one way of thinking they know. It strikes me that modern business education is derived from the early industrial revolution and is not geared towards problem solving and complexity. Software projects are not something you can simply "speed up" by throwing more people on. The thought process by management is typically "It takes fjgdk 80 hours to do x, so if we add 8 programmers we can get it done in 10 hours". Of course they spend more time doing this type of thinking than they do architecting and planning the solution so that the work CAN be broken up amongst many developers.

Anyway, thanks for giving me the audience to vent, I feel much better now heheh.

Lol. Management loves to try to make a baby in one month by getting 9 women pregnant.

I just used that metaphor at work today.

And I'm with you as a amateur wrench. You can learn a lot by watching YouTube videos, working the FSM, or asking specific questions about your vehicle or the project you're working on, but I'm always aware that I'm sometimes missing basic principles that a pro would have.

 

[g-man]

Found this online seminar on galvanizing process.

Galvanizing Process | American Galvanizers Association

And seeing as how you like to think about things before acting, it might be a good read. Looks free to peruse. I found the section on "other corrosion protection systems" interesting. I started searching because of the previous post about "roughing up the surface to paint". I started to wonder if the galvanized coating would be harmed by roughing it up. I know you have to grind galvanized surfaced before welding, so it seems to me that roughing up the surface would be counterproductive to it's intended corrosive ability.

A simpler solution but maybe my dd approach would be to grind off any surface rust and undercoating and paint with zinc rich paint. The downside here is no protection on the inside of the frame where corrosion is happening. It sucks to think our frames are rotting away from the inside out. Mine looks like a patchwork of weld repairs.

Maybe less expensive than galvanizing would be to locate a donor frame from the arid southwest.

 

[fjgdk]

Found this online seminar on galvanizing process.

Galvanizing Process | American Galvanizers Association

And seeing as how you like to think about things before acting, it might be a good read. Looks free to peruse. I found the section on "other corrosion protection systems" interesting. I started searching because of the previous post about "roughing up the surface to paint". I started to wonder if the galvanized coating would be harmed by roughing it up. I know you have to grind galvanized surfaced before welding, so it seems to me that roughing up the surface would be counterproductive to it's intended corrosive ability.

A simpler solution but maybe my dd approach would be to grind off any surface rust and undercoating and paint with zinc rich paint. The downside here is no protection on the inside of the frame where corrosion is happening. It sucks to think our frames are rotting away from the inside out. Mine looks like a patchwork of weld repairs.

Maybe less expensive than galvanizing would be to locate a donor frame from the arid southwest.

Thanks for the link, I will read through it after work today. I have been diving into any reading on this (corrosion protection) this past week.

I too hypothesized that blasting a galvanized piece prior to powder coating would pretty much negate the galvanizing as to my knowledge the galvanization is a "sacrificial" layer of zinc. One site I read said that if galvanization and powder coating are deisred, then doing the following may be appropriate:

"A galvanizing shop can, immediately after galvanizing, apply a zinc phosphate treatment which will insure good adhesion."
Compare galvanized to powder coat please

I wanted to look more into that comment as well later on today.

Also, I hope I didn't sound too borish with my rant about not thinking things through. It's just that I think often times people confuse "action" with "motion" as an engineer friend of mine is fond of saying. I experiment and fail at things all the time just to learn; I just don't want the "experimenting" phase to be on a 4500+ lbs piece of metal I will drive on a highway.

 

[fjgdk]

Found this online seminar on galvanizing process.

Galvanizing Process | American Galvanizers Association

And seeing as how you like to think about things before acting, it might be a good read. Looks free to peruse. I found the section on "other corrosion protection systems" interesting. I started searching because of the previous post about "roughing up the surface to paint". I started to wonder if the galvanized coating would be harmed by roughing it up. I know you have to grind galvanized surfaced before welding, so it seems to me that roughing up the surface would be counterproductive to it's intended corrosive ability.

A simpler solution but maybe my dd approach would be to grind off any surface rust and undercoating and paint with zinc rich paint. The downside here is no protection on the inside of the frame where corrosion is happening. It sucks to think our frames are rotting away from the inside out. Mine looks like a patchwork of weld repairs.

Maybe less expensive than galvanizing would be to locate a donor frame from the arid southwest.

OK I am going to be a bit late to work now...I couldn't help but start into that link you provided. It is very good so far. Curiousity is going to kill my employment !

 

[FJ Noob]

@fjgdk How's the project going to date? I'm in the researching/planning stages of a similar project to what you described. Any rips or recommendations from your experiences so far? ~Thanks

 

[jamesg]

What is the "order of operations" one should do to take apart a 1983 FJ60 for some major overhaul work ? I see the "major" jobs, the details of which I can search for in other threads, as :
1) removal of engine/tranny/front end
2) removal of axles
3) removal of frame from body

If there are some other "major" jobs needed to take apart the truck please let me know. But what I am seeking is simply what order I should take things apart in to make the process easy and as painless as possible ?

A bit of background:

If all goes well next month I will finally have clear 300 square foot garage to work in for the upcoming year or so. I want to take the whole thing apart (frame off, axles off, engine and tranny out) for a major overhaul including blazing and powder coating the frame and axles, body paint job, engine and tranny work, leaf springs etc. etc...

Any input is appreciated.

I just finished reading your thread; quite the project. I am about to do the same thing to my 87. I am retired, (Physicist with the Dept. of Energy) so I do have the time but my wife will disagree. Anyway I wanted to ask you, I might of missed it but do you have any Factory Service/Repair Manuals? They will make your task easier, easier being a relative term. I have an FSM for my fzj80 and it makes a world of difference; I won't be starting my project until June 2019. Good luck and I wish you well.

 

[macdaddy59]

I have found the that sandblasting the frame and axles with fine sand using a outdoor POT sandblaster works best for removing all of the paint etc. Pressure wash it firs and use some degreaser than sandblast. I recoat everything with Chassis epoxy paint (3 coats) on the frame, axles, etc.

 

[Samppahj]

If you read through my thread (link in my signature) I have done the same thing. It sure is a big job, but doable. I have worked mainly by myself. I have had some help with lifting the body on and off. Same with the engine. But all the rest is doable without help. You can paint over galvanized surfaces. It is recommended to give it a sand bath before paint, not sand blast just a light bath with a sand blaster. That works with wet paint, not sure about powder coat, but I suppose it is the same thing. I had a Commercial vehicle painter to sandblast my frame and axles and then he sprayed over them with heavy duty Poly-Urethane paint with rust preventing pigments in the paint. Axles I got sandblasted with everything in place so seals and other stuff were to protect inside of the axles from getting sand. I ripped them in parts after blasting. I thought about galvanizing, but I am going to drive my car only in summer time so it felt useless to spend extra money on that.

The OEM coating under the body is some kind of a coating that it applied hot with a spray gun. It has a light color. It sticks very hard and does not come off with media blasting. Only way to get rid of it is to peel it of with a chisel and heat gun. I scraped and media blasted it off where it had rust under it and it was loose. Then sprayed epoxy primer and Raptor coating. If you have some black tar like thing under your body it is some aftermarket rust preventive coating. It all came off my truck with glass blasting.

 

[g-man]

I never did see a good order of operations here. I assume:

Remove the drive train including engine, trans, t-case and drive shafts.

Unbolt the body mounts, unbolt all ground wires, disconnect brake lines, and fuel lines, remove the clutch slave or clutch line, unplug any wiring harnesses from the firewall.

what about the steering wheel? what is the best way to disjoint this? Unbolt at the universal joint just above the steering gear?

what else needs to come loose before raising?

I don't have a lift so I'm thinking a 4x4 of maybe 2ft on a floor jack "T'd" into another 4x4 timber that pushes the floor up. Once high enough above the frame run a 10 or 12 ft long 4x4 thru the side under the body but above the frame. This done 2x. Once just under the front seats and once just forward of the rear axle where the floor is still flat before the rear wheel well.

Once the body is slightly up off the frame, I assume one could raise either end of the 4x4x10ft by jacking with timbers or hoisting with an engine hoist and build timber cribbing like this image

or use steel barrels to support under the 10ft 4x4 on either side.

Lower the air in the tires if needed and roll the chassis and axles out from the body/stands.

Once the chassis is out things will be self evident...moving bumpers, brake and fuel lines over, unbolting the spring shackles and moving the shackles/springs/axles as one unit.

"Disclaimer" I have not done this. But I like many am fighting a losing battle with my frame and it will be only a matter of time.

 

[g-man]

Thinking about this more, the wiring harness can stay attached at the firewall entering the cab but the coil to dizzy, alt wires, carb ics wire, carb fan temp sensor wire, etc will need to be disconnected. Cat temp probe removed if still attached at the catalytic converter. Emerg brake cable disconnected. Exhaust at the manifold before the motor comes out but also disconnect the exhaust at the smog pipe. The throttle linkage from firewall to carb.