A650F 5 Speed for 1FZ

[HDJdreams]

I need to give a shoutout to @scottryana
and @Dragos80 for inspiring this project:

5 speed auto

Some great ideas, but that thread lost its steam with endless speculation and little hands on.

Stage 1 was the outside mechanical check (bell and tail housings)

Stage 2 will be the inside mechanical check (input and output shafts swap)

If I get that far, I will definitely need help from the Mud crowd (Mudsourcing) to work out the electronics.

 

[bigredmachine]

found a little info on the trans looks like theres plenty of vehicles that it was in so getting one or parts shouldn't be too hard



5 Speed Automatic Transmission

I6 and V8 versions similar. However V8 versions have slight internal upgrades to handle the increased torque (35-50LS?).

Applications (calendar years):

• 1998-2005 Lexus GS 300
• 1998-2000 Lexus GS 400
• 1998-2000 Lexus LS 400
• 2001-2005 Lexus GS 430
• 2001-2005 Lexus IS 300
• 1998-2005 Toyota Altezza RS 200
• 2001-2003 Lexus LS 430
• 1998-2000 Lexus SC 400
• 2001-2005 Lexus SC 430
• 2000-2004 Toyota Crown Majesta 4.0

1 2 3 4 5 Rev Final Drive
3.357 2.180 1.424 1.000 0.753 3.431 Varies
Max Power Rating: 325 HP

 

[HDJdreams]

Speaking of the A650E, all the seller knew was that it supposedly came from a 2002 Lexus and was leftover from neighbors project.

Anyone know what motor “J2” on the bell housing would refer to?

View attachment 1884014

I would guess “J2” is the 3.0l I6 2JZ?

 

[HDJdreams]

Coming from an I6 car could explain shorter bell housing (or the V8 could be same length?)

 

[HDJdreams]

I6 and V8 versions similar. However V8 versions have slight internal upgrades to handle the increased torque (35-50LS?).

I am really curious what is different between the two. Differences between the actual internals - (If internal mechanically stronger or just different tuning for shifts) or if just means the V8s got a heavier output shaft?

I think I have the I6 version. Someone now needs to step up and get the 430 V8 version.

The other question is if the outside electrical connections or the speed sensor look any different on the 98-99s?

 

[HDJdreams]

@Dragos80
Could you repost the links to A650E performance parts?

Unless the V8 A650E miraculously has the same input and out shafts as 1FZ A343F, there will be no way of doing this without a complete rebuild. Might as well use the performance clutches and such.

 

[HDJdreams]

“Max Power Rating: 325 HP” I don’t think the @NLXTACY will quite get me there...yet

Actually, “Max Power Rating: 325 HP” is misleading, manufacturing rate their transmissions by torque and GVW. The turbo 1FZ will have more toque (hopefully) than the 4.3 V8 and the GCVW of a loaded 80 towing is about 3 times that of the Lexus cars.

But there’s hope, as @Dragos80 and others have pointed out, the A650E is the same family as the A343F which was used behind 4.7 V8 with higher GCVW and is surviving behind 5.9 Cummins.

 

[nukegoat]

A340 is not the same as a343 though - isnt the 343 a bit beefier?

 

[bigredmachine]

The other question is if the outside electrical connections or the speed sensor look any different on the 98-99s?

probably not, id guess that it is the common 2 pin connector that Toyota uses for mostly everything. looks something like this
Toyota Connector Valve Vacuum Switching Vapor Purge Solenoid OEM A208 | eBay

super easy to find on just about any harness

 

[scottryana]

No the A340 and A343 are very similar just the rear for the TC and gearing is different. According to the big Supra transmission shop that builds beefy A340's.

A340 is not the same as a343 though - isnt the 343 a bit beefier?

 

[Dragos80]

Most likely came from a IS300
I really think it's speculation that the V8 version is built stronger.
It needs to be rebuilt anyway.

Online Store | PowerDynamix

IPT Performance Transmissions


Lexus A650E transmission bushing kit

A650E Transmission for Sale, Remanufactured Rebuilt

Level 10 Toyota Bulletproof Valvebody A540E,U140E A340E,A341E,A350E,A650EA750E,A343F

Level 10 PTS Toyota Bulletproof Rebuilding Kit

Making the A650e transmission survive on the cheap. Part 2 | IS Elite

Online Store | PowerDynamix



We mainly dropped the original 5 speed tranny "project" because the outlook for the 750/760 came on. That one went away quickly.

I hope this project goes all the way to the functional stage.


There is a lot of info, although a lot pages to read on the original thread.
5 speed auto




Transmission controller
Dicktator Transmission Controller

 

[HDJdreams]

If you need a hand with hard parts, send a message! (The kind made out of aluminum, not heavy lifting)

@Delta VS Would that offer include 1FZ to A750F bell housing?

I’d track down a TLC A750F, bring it up with bell housing and TC along with 1FZ A343F bell housing, TC and flexplate with the 200 if you haven’t got one of those in the shop yet for the panhard bracket.

I’ll at least tear A650 and A343 apart and see if shafts swap, but at that point the swap involves a custom rebuild using 2 donor transmissions.

With 1FZ bell housing, the A750F is a bolt in, and a more viable swap than A650E, and it has a wider gear spread. (I know @Dragos80 disagrees, but I would prefer to gear axles a little lower, but enjoy same overall top ratio with the taller OD, worked wonderfully in my 04UZJ100.)

Either A650 or A750 will involve custom controller and wiring.

 

[cjmoon]

I have an a750f and bell.

Need to research but believe the a650 electronics may be easier with more on off clutch controls vs PWM on a750. Line pressure is more than likely PWM on a650.

Recently was involved in doing a bunch of work with the U660E to hold big HP in the Lotus application.

 

[Dragos80]

Here's how I see the 2 transmission or a 2 donor dilemma.

If one choses to go the 650 route, the OEM tranny (343) becomes the donor. It can be cannibalized to make the 650 fit and work. There should be no looking back at that point.
So, I don't think one should buy a 343 and a 650 and keep the OEM tranny in the shed for the time when it would be preferred to go back to a 4 speed transmission.


Regarding the 750/760 transmission gear I don't agree with is simply for the top gear. 5th or 6th depending on the tranny. But more so about the 760, 6th gear ratio. It is simply too tall and the engine would rev very low, fall out of the power band and change gears like crazy to stay at speed.
Lugging the engine is also not good practice.
Go up on a slight incline and you find yourself out of power.

Now throw in 33's, 35's or god forbid 37's and a 760 and the revs would fall to idle territory at freeway speeds.
Then you would want to regear your diffs. Now, what's the point in doing that?

You would have a very short 1st gear which would redline the engine each time start moving from a standstill.

I can make a compromise with the 750 but not the 760.
From .753 to .716 is not that huge of a difference.
I mostly run 33's so let's say I would see a 300-350 RPM drop from where Toyota intended the engine to be at a given freeway speed.
It would be the end of the world at that point.


But at .586 for a 760 I would want to delete that gear from the controller. I'm sure it can be done. So turning the 760 into a 750 via controller.


Anyway, what's the price point for a 750/760 controller these days?

 

[mjosoba]

I have an a750f and bell.

Need to research but believe the a650 electronics may be easier with more on off clutch controls vs PWM on a750. Line pressure is more than likely PWM on a650.

Recently was involved in doing a bunch of work with the U660E to hold big HP in the Lotus application.

Are you going to try and adapt your 4bt to an A750? That would be quite interesting. My adapter is similar to yours, makes the back of my Isuzu into a Cummins basically.

 

[HDJdreams]

Like I said, me and @Dragos80 disagree on overdrives.

But at .586 for a 760 I would want to delete that gear from the controller. I'm sure it can be done. So turning the 760 into a 750 via controller.

Totally unnecessary, the A750 from 100 would be a bolt in, A760 would likely need tail pieces swapped from a TLC A750. (HOWEVER I am still suspicious that the 6th gear is a software change as it is on Allison 1000 and Jeep 5RF45.)

@Dragos80 is looking at OD from the perspective of not gearing with 33s and I am looking at it with axle regear and a boosted 1FZ.

I live a few hours from Moab, I have to get on 80 mph freeway to get anywhere. 2 ODs are great for western freeways AND to give more flexibility in low range, especially with extra deep low range gears. (Its super annoying to be stuck in a group with a Jeep Rubicon or whatever that only has super snail low and takes forever getting between obstacles.)

My current work ride is a 4x4 Tahoe with 5.3, 6L80, 31” ATs, and 3.42 axle gears. The combination works wonderfully.

The 6L80 and 6L90 do NOT have 1:1 direct, but 1.15:1 making the axle ratio 3.93 when converted to 1:1. The ratio spread and steps of A760F are almost identical to 6L80.

I also have a 200 on 34s” and still on the factory 3.9 gears. That needs geared down! Word is that 4.88s are perfect. Tundras, which share the 5.7 and 6 speed transmission with the 200, come with 4.30 gears on their tow package. Scaling that up to 34” is 4.72, closest step is 4.88.

What I would hope to achieve most by 5 speed swap is to find a gear between the A343Fs 2nd (1.53) and 3rd (1:1). The A650 is awfully close at 1.42, hopefully it still makes a difference.

 

[HDJdreams]

Are you going to try and adapt your 4bt to an A750? That would be quite interesting. My adapter is similar to yours, makes the back of my Isuzu into a Cummins basically.

Nope, no 4BT here. I am trying to modernize my 80 by turbo charging the stock 1FZ 4.5 I6 gas motor AND give it more gears to work with.

There’s another 5 year old thread that speculated about that for well over 300 posts. It started out with the hope that the A750F 5 speed used in 03-07 V8 100 series TLCs could be adapted to 80 motor. No luck, no 1FZ bell housing out there that could be adapted to A750F. It then progressed to the A650E (E = 2wd) transmission used in Lexus cars.

The thread stalled there, nobody actually grabbed a A650 until this thread. So far we are at, the bell and tail housings swap, but it’s still a no go unless input and output shafts swap.

 

[HDJdreams]

“You would have a very short 1st gear which would redline the engine each time start moving from a standstill.”

Not even close.

The current crop of 8 and 10 speed automatics have a 4.7-5.0 1st gear.

I drove a A750F with 3.5 1st 4.1 axle gears (14.4 total ratio) on 31” tires for years works great! Same for 6L80 Tahoe, 4.03 1st and 3.42 axle (13.8 total ratio) on 31s.

 

[Bludozer]

In, subbed. I admire what you're doing OP. Lets see where this goes.

 

[HDJdreams]

My Toyota transmission wishlist for 1FZ:

1st choice: A760F 6 speed (6.0 ratio spread)

2nd choice: A750F 5 speed (4.9 ratio spread)

3rd choice: A650E/A343F hybrid 5 speed (4.46 ratio spread)

But as Stephen Stills says “If you can’t be with the one you love, love the one you’re with!”