5 speed auto (1 Viewer)

[Dragos80]

"by removing a one-way clutch for second gear and employing a unique gear-train layout, this transmission has the same circumference and length as the conventional four-speed automatic transmission (A340E)(1)."


Toyota New Compact Five-Speed Automatic Transmission for RWD Passenger Cars

 

[Dragos80]

I finally had some time and stopped by the Used Japanese engine and transmission shop close to me.
Disappointed. I guess the online reviews about that place are all accurate. Extremely unhelpful people there. Acted as if they simply did not want any customers.

I have to raise the old question up again:
Any measurements of the A650 possible with any of you LS/GS owners out there?

 

[Dragos80]

Dicktator Transmission Controller

 

[panamacruiser]

Negative. They never received an automatic five speed box. Only four speed.

Cool thread indeed though Ryan.

The 100 series, after 2003 model, have the 5 speed tranny, in diesel and gasoline engines (check LX470) the tell tale is the gated shifter

 

[OGBeno]

The 100 series, after 2003 model, have the 5 speed tranny, in diesel and gasoline engines (check LX470) the tell tale is the gated shifter

My "negative" comment was that the 1FZ-FE never received a 5 speed automatic transmission in its FZJ100/FZJ105 iterations. It only ever received a 4 speed A442F application.

Of course, the 2UZ-FE did receive a 5 speed automatic A750F starting in 2002 actually.

 

[panamacruiser]

Guys, not gonna say much...read this...I know, is not the same engine, but...it will be the same all together if you see what I see...same car, different markets, different engines, but one common transmission...it has to bolt on...early (93-94?) 80n series in your country, were using A442F (one disc plate less than diesels) you all upgraded to A343F, but diesels remain the same due to torque considerations...it makes me think that the bolt pattern of the A442F and the A343F for the housing are the same or not so different...now...if you can switch from A442F to A750F, I see no reason it can't be done with the A343F

Toyota 80 Series with 5 Speed A750 Tip-Tronic Auto - Wholesale Automatic Transmissions

 

[Dragos80]

It simply does not fit.
We went that route before.

Different all together.

 

[Dragos80]

Check out post #163

5 speed auto

 

[Dragos80]

That's a 2wd trans, so cast in tail housing right? That's a problem.

Would this transmission also be a cast-in tail housing type?

 

[dogfishlake]

Would this transmission also be a cast-in tail housing type?

View attachment 1499914

It looks like it. I don't see where the back of the case is bolted on.

 

[Dragos80]

this particular one comes from a rwd model. It's the ZF 6HP26, which is also used in AWD applications together with a transfer case. I guess it comes in two versions, one rwd and the other awd.
The awd one looks slightly different.

This ZF has nothing to do with our quest here. It's just part of my dream swap... 6 cylinder diesel together with this tranny.

I am currently focusing on the A650 as a pure tranny swap.

 

[Dragos80]

Sort of good news.


Went to a local transmission shop to get an idea if he would work with my crazy idea.
Of course he said no in the beginning, but slowly warmed up to this swap as we talked more about it.

By looking at some catalogs he has, apparently the transmission case for A343 and A650 is the same.
This is the subjective part. We don't know for sure yet.

He promised to call one of his buddies at a salvage yard to see if he has both transmissions there and compare them.

If and only if the two cases are similar in size and bolt pattern, the problem becomes a lot easier.
The two transmissions are from the same family though. So there is a good chance they are not much different.

We would retain the original 80 bellhousing and tailhousing and only swap in the case itself. Long shot, but I have a feeling it might work.

Then (for me) the trouble starts.
This guy said he would not touch the electronic part of the swap at all. He would only take care of the mechanical aspect of it, including rebuilding the tranny, beefing it up... whatever.

So I might need to take it (if again, it all fits together nicely) somewhere else to have the ECU work together with the tranny controller and the A650. (I'm not much of a computer guy).

Hopefully next week or the one after, I'll have some news... one way or the other.

 

[dogfishlake]

Well that's a whole lot better than just "no way!". Good work

 

[Dragos80]

There are a few reasons I discounted the A750F for this project.

-It belongs to a different transmission family.
-More electronics than the A343F - A650E family
-Does not bolt up
-Gear ratios are not well suited for the 1FZ engine (first gear is too short and the 5th one is way too long, making the engine rev up too much in first gear and lugging in 5th)
-not sure about spline count
-Those who have already regeared will redline the engine in 1st gear consistently.
-It simply throws the engine-gearing balance off, more than the Toyota engineered this combo to work well
-the 1st to 2nd gear spread is too wide (1.47 vs 1.27-OEM) which brings us back to the problem we are currently facing when shifting from 1st to 2nd with our current setup... too wide, falls on it's face worse when towing. Now, as a counter argument, a ratio of 2.042 is much better as a second gear ratio than the A343's 1.53 ratio.



1.......2....... 3..... 4...... 5
3.52.. 2.042. 1.4.. 1.00.. 0.716

With larger size tires the overdrive would put the engine at much lower RPM, possibly causing unwanted downshifts and simply revving too low (outside of the Toyota design specs)

Final gear in 1st would be 14.47:1 vs 11.52:1 (OEM) this ratio will increase depending on the axle gear used 4.11 vs 4.88 vs 5.29
Fifth gear would be 2.94:1 vs 3.09:1 (OEM).... but with larger tires this final ratio would further decrease depending on the size of the tires.
If paired with 4.88 gears, the first gear ratio will be crazy low and keep the RPM in a very high range (17.18 final vs 11.52- A343 with 4.11). 5th gear ratio with 4.88 axle would get you 3.49 vs 3.09- A343 with 4.11, which will get the engine in a higher RPM range on the freeway- Yes the larger size tires will reduce that ratio to a degree.





A650E

-might bolt right up (will find out soon for sure)
-same ratio of mechanical and electrical components and configuration as the A343F
-gear ratio spread is a little better, closer to Toyota spec for the given engine parameters
-same spline count
-same size as A343F
-regearing would not be necessary or required
-maintains a closer to Toyota spec balance between the engine parameter and gearing
-beter gear ratio spread between 1st and 2nd (1.17 vs 1.27 - A343F vs 1.47 A750F)
-will rev up the engine in 1st gear as much as with a theoretical A750 swap
-same as 80 OEM overdrive ratio, which will get slightly better with larger size tires, but too low of a ratio as with A750F


1........ 2........ 3........ 4...... 5
3.357.. 2.180.. 1.424.. 1.00.. 0.753



I really think and hope the A650 would be the perfect solution to our quest in swapping in a 5 speed automatic transmission, in terms of ease of swap, relative cost, keeping it Toyota, improving the gear ratio and extracting a greater ratio of power out of the engine, not having a bad experience while towing during the 1st to 2nd gear shift, street driving capability and pleasure would be better as well over the current 4 speed, no need to regear the axles or the transfer case and keeping the bad transmission gear ratios, might even cancel the plans for some to add a supercharger or turbo, it will not interfere with smog checks.

 

[half k cruiser]

I really hope so too because they will be super abundant in junk yards, usually attached to a 1UZ that you could also use for a little project sports car....

 

[Dragos80]

I've a some thinking regarding the gear shifter. The early LS400 5-speed auto shifter might not be an option for us due to it's shape. I don't think it will fit the 80 console. A shifter from LS430 might do the trick.
It's all based on the pictures I found on the internet.
Here are some stolen pictures.

LS430 (a little more narrow than the LS400 style) I think (read HOPE) it will fit the opening on our cars.

LS400. It looks too wide.

 

[mehbohdi]

Do you think you could adapt the existing shifter like the LS guys have done? Or is there something special about the gated shifter other than the cool factor.

 

[Dragos80]

I really don't care about it being gated or not. To me it makes 0 difference.
All I want is functionality and esthetics (in the sense that it won't look really bad with gaps between the shifter and the console).

The original one on our 80's will not fully work in terms of shifting gears the right way. It does not have provisions to shift 5 gears up or down. I need that feature. Engine braking comes to mind. I simply don't want to go from 5th to 2nd by mistake at the wrong speed and RPM.

With the A343F You can go from D (OD 0.753) to 3rd (1.00) then to 2nd (1.53).
Not sure how this shifter would work with the A650E Going from 0.753 to 1.424 directly... if in fact it will be able to do that. I would not want to try it.

 

[Dragos80]

No news yet on the transmission. The guy did not contact me yet, I guess they couldn't find a pair to compare.

Got a response to a question I had for Dicktator, regarding their transmission control unit.

"The controller is full standalone.
All that is needed from the engine is a rpm and tps signal.
Controller and shipping $280.00 payment with paypal."

 

[Dragos80]

A bit of a disappointing news.
The first guy I went to for help is very busy and referred me to his uncle in a different city. I understand and respect that.
Apparently they did talk about it and initially said it is the same transmission case, which might bolt directly to our trucks.

Went to tak to the "uncle" and all he did was to look up his computer.
He did not remember having any conversation with his nephew, but said no, it does not fit.

Bummer.

I think it is simply easier for them to brush me off, than put in the effort to actually search for the answer. But being a business as such, the money is not in the research, but in the actual repair.

Got that point.


It would be better if I can find the two transmissions at a junk yard and compare them at both ends to see if they actually match up.
Again A343 vs A650 for those who might want to help out and have the resources.