1FZ engine building and blueprinting

[OutlawMike]

Hazard,

What are you doing about the stock ECU/TCU? I have been digging deeply into the possibility of a 8HP75 swap and the obstacle is not on the mechanical side, but on the ECU side. I want/need the J80 to still have OBDII diagnostics and not throw codes when the stock transmission is no longer in place. Creating a transmission emulator has been looked at in the past, but that has hurdles that might not be easily overcome.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[hazard]

Not sure. Probably doesnt apply to me as I dont care about OBD etc.

 

[SmokingRocks]

hat are you doing about the stock ECU/TCU? I have been digging deeply into the possibility of a 8HP75 swap and the obstacle is not on the mechanical side, but on the ECU side. I want/need the J80 to still have OBDII diagnostics and not throw codes when the stock transmission is no longer in place. C

The obd2 ECU has the TCU integrated within it, so you would just need to give it the inputs it's asking for and could probably just abandon the outputs. Might throw a trans code but who cares since the trans is controlled independently. Worse case you could build a digital transmission with an arduino and some code to give the ECU something to 'control'.

 

[CJK]

Worse case you could build a digital transmission with an arduino and some code to give the ECU something to 'control'.

When I read this, I imagined the ECU being a passenger with a steering wheel that they think it steers the vehicle but is just a toy...like this:

 

[OutlawMike]

The obd2 ECU has the TCU integrated within it, so you would just need to give it the inputs it's asking for and could probably just abandon the outputs. Might throw a trans code but who cares since the trans is controlled independently. Worse case you could build a digital transmission with an arduino and some code to give the ECU something to 'control'.

This topic was hashed out pretty well back in 2016 when a few of the members were doing 5 spd manual swaps into the US spec J80's. If Toyota had ever shipped a M/T J80 to the US, this would be easy, just put in a M/T ECU. But, they never did that. A bunch of offshore M/T ECU's were investigated and some tried. Problem was that Japan, Australia, middle East did not get OBDII until much later. The European J80's had just one O2 sensor. A straight M/T ECU swap did not work to keep OBDII functionality. You could swap an offshore M/T ECU and get rid of the check engine light.

There was a bit of digging into the US spec integrated ECU/TCU and the biggest hurdle was:

"The problem would be that the ECU won't do any of it's magic as far as readiness tests and open/closed loop without the VSS signal. With the VSS signal, it expects to see certain things happen when it tells the transmission to shift which would be impossible to simulate because of the real world (engine RPM can't be simulated, the ECU knows the real value)."

Quoted from sbman, on page 9 of the thread:

Computer Problems with Manual Trans Swap

I evaluated the EWD in relation to the auto trans. It does not have very many connections. I can see that wiring the 'N' indicator to light up won't do anything because the ECU doesn't even detect this signal. I do believe I could design a circuit to emulate the transmission and make the ECU...

forum.ih8mud.com

If you live somewhere that does not do biannual smog checks, you can deal with the code. But, if you do live some where that requires biannual smog, then you may need to have the check engine light off, as some states require that the light is off, even if it is a transmission related code.

There is a Supra transmission emulator out there, but that was designed for the 2JZ-GE engines with VVT, when doing a manual swap. On those cars, with the stock transmission missing, the computer went into safe mode and disabled the VVT functionality, taking away some performance. As I read the pinout for that emulator, it would not address the issue with the J80 ECU/TCU.

Automatic Transmission Emulator

Please follow link for information about the ATEMU and installation instructions. https://www.toyotav8.com/forum/devices-atemu-mpx-signal-converter-ect/31-atemu-information-and-installation-instructions

quantum-auto.com

 

[SmokingRocks]

This is one of those instances when an OBD 1 rig would be the ticket..

 

[OutlawMike]

This is one of those instances when an OBD 1 rig would be the ticket..

From a transmission swap standpoint, yes. They have a stand alone TCU, so, no complications when you pull the original trans. The OBDII rigs have mass airflow, do not have the PAIR valves, you an turbo charge them, etc. I have the Wit's End turbo kit on mine, running 8.5 PSI boost. Love that. Just need to get more gears in the slush box.

 

[hazard]

hi to anyone still following. Major setback. Sent my block to California to have Cryo treatment along with other parts. They dropped the block and damaged it irreparably.
back to the drawing board.
while I am at it I have to find a solution to fit the stroker crank in block without grinding hole for clearance.
2 ways:
1. which Scotty Riana suggested to me but too late, grind crank rod journals to smaller diameter and use rods with smaller big end. I would have to get crank ground and buy new rods, which wouldn’t fit anything else.
so I have chosen
2. use a Porsche VW style rod with inverted bolts. Going to have a cheap model built first to see if it will work. Any comments?
I will keep you posted.
see picture.

 

[hazard]

Also. Want to ask everyone to only discuss this engine here. Even I have gotten off topic. I have another thread for transmission adapters and other things.
thanks

 

[hazard]

ok
back to engine building and stroker discussions.
I have seen several stroker builds that claim to be running 115 mm cranks, and even possibly 130. However no one will ever tell me how they are stuffing them in the blocks.
to clearance my block for 114 mm with titanium rods, that were somewhat smaller than stock, I ended up with holes in block.
why won’t those builders divulge how they do it?
I have a new plan to gain clearance, see a couple posts back. In the process of making a cheap plastic 3D modeled rod now. If it fits I’ll order a Ti or billet set.

 

[bigredmachine]

They dropped the block and damaged it irreparably.

i hope their either getting you another block or comping you with cash for the lose of the block and time down

 

[scottryana]

hi to anyone still following. Major setback. Sent my block to California to have Cryo treatment along with other parts. They dropped the block and damaged it irreparably.
back to the drawing board.
while I am at it I have to find a solution to fit the stroker crank in block without grinding hole for clearance.
2 ways:
1. which Scotty Riana suggested to me but too late, grind crank rod journals to smaller diameter and use rods with smaller big end. I would have to get crank ground and buy new rods, which wouldn’t fit anything else.
so I have chosen
2. use a Porsche VW style rod with inverted bolts. Going to have a cheap model built first to see if it will work. Any comments?
I will keep you posted.
see picture.View attachment 3522688

Not sure who this Scotty Riana person is but I think if my memory is right by going to the smaller rod journal on a custom crank, that alone gets you approx 9.3mm longer stroke in the same space as the stock crank. Again it’s been a couple years but I think I measured with a custom crank, and rods without any block clearancing you should be able to get 113mm stroke. But the two custom crank places I talked to wanted close to $8-9k for the crank alone.

But again there is another problem when you are increasing the stroke like this, and that is the rod length doesn’t increase unless you decrease pin size and decrease the compression height. (Which I think you did) but it all needs to be done together or you end up with what in my opinion is a poor Rod/stroke ratio and a lot of sideways force on the bores.

 

[hazard]

i hope their either getting you another block or comping you with cash for the lose of the block and time down

Not sure who this Scotty Riana person is but I think if my memory is right by going to the smaller rod journal on a custom crank, that alone gets you approx 9.3mm longer stroke. In the same space as the stock crank. Again it’s been a couple years but I think I measured with a custom crank, and rods without any block clearancing you should be able to get 113mm stroke. But the two custom crank places I talked to wanted close to $8-9k for the crank alone.

Hi Scotty
sorry for the name change, I was talking about you! Wish I had listened to your advise, (I think it was before I ordered crank?). If you read above now I’m in a pickle. I have a new block coming in to start again, it’s a 105 block, I bought a 105 complete and will be selling all parts except block, and maybe head.
but this time to get clearance for my 114 I will buy inverted bolt rods, if I can prove they will get my clearance by 3D printing a mock up rod, or I will have to go your way and grind rod journals down and get custom rods. Only reason I don’t want to go grind route is that then I will have to find some weird bearings, and the custom rods will be a one off Use.
As for the Ti rods I already bought, I may build a bit shorter stroker that they will fi, or try to sell them. Need. Some Ti rods??
I will post again when I get my mock-up rod and try to fit

 

[scottryana]

Hi Scotty
sorry for the name change, I was talking about you! Wish I had listened to your advise, (I think it was before I ordered crank?). If you read above now I’m in a pickle. I have a new block coming in to start again, it’s a 105 block, I bought a 105 complete and will be selling all parts except block, and maybe head.
but this time to get clearance for my 114 I will buy inverted bolt rods, if I can prove they will get my clearance by 3D printing a mock up rod, or I will have to go your way and grind rod journals down and get custom rods. Only reason I don’t want to go grind route is that then I will have to find some weird bearings, and the custom rods will be a one off Use.
As for the Ti rods I already bought, I may build a bit shorter stroker that they will fi, or try to sell them. Need. Some Ti rods??
I will post again when I get my mock-up rod and try to fit

You use the Honda rod bearings and journal size, this has been done several times in the 2JZ world just hasn’t been done in the 1FZ world. And please double check these numbers since I am getting older and my memory isn’t as infallible as it once was. But the Honda Rod journal size is 1.88” and the 1FZ is 57mm or like 2.244”

Not sure if you could grind the crank all the way down to 1.88 I don’t know how deep the induction hardening would go?

I have never seen a 105 block so you’ll be in uncharted territory there which is kind of exciting but I really do like the benefits that the 105 head offers and wish I knew about them before I started any head work on the 80’s head!

 

[hazard]

Yes I looked into honda bearing sizes, and also NASCAR chevy guys use 1.85" journals. However both use narrower rod thicknesses than the 1FZ. If I went that route the rod would have to be piston guided.
There is so much to learn and figure! Wonder if I'll ever get done!!!
Cheers

 

[scottryana]

Yes I looked into honda bearing sizes, and also NASCAR chevy guys use 1.85" journals. However both use narrower rod thicknesses than the 1FZ. If I went that route the rod would have to be piston guided.
There is so much to learn and figure! Wonder if I'll ever get done!!!
Cheers

Yes exactly that’s why I was looking at custom crank, I spoke with Winberg which looks very nice but the cost was not insignificant.

 

[hazard]

I got mine from Crower. $4,500 but 5 years ago. When I looked then Bryant, Winberg etc., were even more.
I am seriously considering the Chinese stuff at $1,600 for my next build, I think some of it may be very good.

 

[audi2nr]

Hi Scotty
sorry for the name change, I was talking about you! Wish I had listened to your advise, (I think it was before I ordered crank?). If you read above now I’m in a pickle. I have a new block coming in to start again, it’s a 105 block, I bought a 105 complete and will be selling all parts except block, and maybe head.
but this time to get clearance for my 114 I will buy inverted bolt rods, if I can prove they will get my clearance by 3D printing a mock up rod, or I will have to go your way and grind rod journals down and get custom rods. Only reason I don’t want to go grind route is that then I will have to find some weird bearings, and the custom rods will be a one off Use.
As for the Ti rods I already bought, I may build a bit shorter stroker that they will fi, or try to sell them. Need. Some Ti rods??
I will post again when I get my mock-up rod and try to fit

Pmd.

 

[hazard]

I would be very interested in the transmission adapters if they work with the 10 speed. Have been researching swapping a ZF 8HP70 into my J80. Nothing available in the way of adapters, currently. There are several stand alone controllers available for swapping the 8HP. Also, a shop in Australia just did a video series on swapping an 8HP70 into a built 79 series Land Cruiser. This was behind a V8, not the 1FZ-FE. They developed adapters in house for that swap and used a TurboLamik trans controller.

ZF 8HP70 Swap Into LC 79 series

View attachment 3282603

There is now a controller for the 10 speed. Too late for my build this time but will do next. Controller is
Gearbox Control Unit | HTG tuning - https://htg-tuning.com/gcu/
Here is a list of supported transmissions.
I think I will still wait and see if US Shift comes out with one as they seem simpler.

 

[hazard]

Here is my 3D modelled connecting rod I will use to see if it resolves my clearance issues. If it does I will order new rods.