Engine overheat (1FZ-FE) (1 Viewer)

[OrangeCrusher]

I did more reading on the radiators and learned the following:
The model I currently have is a "CSF 2517". This aftermarket model seems to be rather reliable, however appears to have well below normal cooling performance. There are multiple consistent reports of forum members living in hot states having issues with it. There is a whole long thread from 2017 about it here. The experiences described there matching mine.

One particular quote that is pretty clear:

Since my stock radiator blew @ 220k on a recent trip to Zion, which left me no choice but to order a CSF unit in order to get my rig on the road again. Since then i have replaced new fan clutch with 15k fluid, new thermostat, new fan shroud with foam seal, new cap., flushed coolant. I have since wheeled the rig in 95+ weather and highway hill climbs with AC on full blast and had experienced engine temp over 220 via my koso temp gauge. My most recent wheeling trip again confirmed that my newish all metal brass radiator is in fact unable to cool the engine fast enough at load plus AC running. Highway driving at 65mph plus with AC on and flat ground, i see my coolant temp @ 200-205, on longer hill climbs, it easily gets up to 215-220, and stock gauge starts to rise above mid level.....In my book, this is unacceptable as with my stock radiator, and stock fan clutch, i had never seen temp gets above 210 even on long hill climbs @ 4K rpm for extended period of time. At this rate, i am no longer comfortable with my engine temp w/ AC on full blast, and which lead me to believe that the all metal brass radiator is indeed unable to keep up with the cooling, and border line insufficient. I have bite the bullet and have an all custom alum. radiator in order from a reputable company. I hope my temp will stay below 210 without constantly worrying when my engine will overheat. I will report soon when my alum. core 2 row arrived and installed with some numbers back to report......

Overall it appears the consensus is that aluminium ones do cool better. The TYC seems to cool best (at least out of the not custom made / very expensive ones), but also has the worst reliability / longevity.

TYC 1918 - Amazon
- the reviews on Amazon are pretty bad. I don't like the idea of putting something in that will fail again in relatively short time. Reports of premature failure also on mud e.g. here
- however it appears to have the best cooling performance of all options?

Koyo A1918 - Amazon
- much better reviews
- looks visually similar to TYC, does it also have good cooling performance is it actually a different design? Someone mentioned it is a bit shallower, but I can't find that thread anymore

CSF 2517 - Amazon
- seems to be reliable but has poor cooling performance
- judging by the shape, this is the one I currently have
- here a thread from 2017 that has many people reporting similar issues as I'm experiencing.

And then there are the OE options:
- 16400-66040 for brass / coppper (early model)
- 16400- 66081 aluminium / plastic (late model)

All-aluminium options:
- Ron Davis - highest quality but $1k+? - can't find online ordering link
- various things on ebay e.g.
-- this here which looks like it would fit, connections look in the right place
-- multiple listings similar to this, which doesn't seem to fit (top connections / cap in wrong place)
-- most likely this is all junk ... however they're so cheap I could roll the dice. Or order 2 models and compare which one is better.

 

[OrangeCrusher]

So, overall status on this in my mind is: It's clear the main issue here is the CSF radiator and it's poor cooling performance under challenging conditions.

Open question is which aluminium radiator version I should replace it with Current gut feeling is getting the late model alu OE - maybe not the absolute best performance, but reliable for sure and not too expensive.

 

[reklund5]

Buy a factory Toyota aluminum/plastic tank radiator and be done.

 

[lumbee1]

Get the TYC1918. It really is a good radiator. I have a Denso now but had a TYC previously. The TYC would keep the engine at 186* (usually 184*) or below in all conditions. The thinner Denso fluctuates up to 190*. The only reason I don't have the TYC now is because I thought it would not fit with the supercharger installed.

 

[OrangeCrusher]

Too many failure reports. Since I bought this vehicle, it has been very unreliable because of a probably decade long maintenance backlog and questionable decision making on adding random poor quality things vs doing basic maintenance. Every part that I change has to increase or at least maintain reliability.

I think I'll go with the Koyorad A1918, and for the money I save over the OE I'll replace the harmonic balancer as that's wobbling, replace the water pump, and do the front oil leak treatment.
Update - I ordered all of these things. Will probably be a week until it all arrived and I get to it. Kyp!

Thanks for the lively discussion! Without it I don't think I'd have figured out what type of radiator is in it, and that it might be one with a known low cooling efficiency! It looked so misleadingly solid.

 

[Kernal]

"replace the harmonic balancer --- and do the front oil leak treatment."

Did you mean replace the oil pump cover gasket (o-ring) along with the front crank seal while the harmonic balancer is off?

 

[OrangeCrusher]

@Kernal yes exactly!

 

[powderpig]

The thing I see that jumps out the most, is you have no sealing between the Fan shroud and the Radiator. So, Even when your fan engages, it is pulling hot air from the engine bay, and not thru the Radiator. The Radiator is only recieving air thru it from the speed of the cruiser thru the air. cheap fix would to at least foam this up or create some sort of way to seal the shroud to the radiator. Then at least foam the radiator to the Top and bottom front support. Then for sure you should not have any hot air being pulled from the engine bay by the fan shroud. Even if you replace the Radiator, you need to foam the Shroud to the radiator. Phil mentions this as one of the things that make his cruiser happy.
CSF was not a bad radiator if one took the time to make it work properly once installed.
Interesting, your Harmonic balancer is wobbling? A good possibility, Timing may be off, as the rubber has now failed between the two metal bits, possibly allowing the outer to slip under stress of the Accessory belts. You might not be timed right.
Maybe your timing is more off than you think. Becareful of the After market Balancers, I have used some(AM) in the past, and had to reclock the timing mark(after chasing timing issues with an engine).

 

[OrangeCrusher]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, @powderpig !

Here my view on the points you raised:

1. Sealing fan shroud / radiator: I measured the gap and it is about 1/4". It may have looked more on the photos or videos, that was because I had everything loose to see how I can best take the thermal imagery. A gap of 1/4" is very small compared to the about 30"x 20" overall extend of the radiator. There is no way for a significant amount of air to creep through this small gap. Sure, some air will get through. But I cannot see this sealing action leading to more than say a 2-5% improvement. It just doesn't seem worth it given I'm now convinced the radiator itself is the main issue.
2. CSF 2517 radiator. Based on extensive reading of other people's experiences with this, I am convinced that it has a sub-par cooling performance and is the main issue. I'm sure if I would be living in a more temperate climate, this radiator would be doing perfectly fine - but I'm not. June to September it's about about 100F every day here. That radiator is simply not up to the task under these conditions as many in this forum previously have experienced. I'm actually surprised this information somehow got lost and nobody mentioned it in this thread.
3. Wobbling current balancer / timing - that's an interesting point! I hadn't thought about that. I think it's unlikely for this to be the case - reason is when I look at it, the inner part looks fine. The outer part - that is connected to the inner part via rubber - seems to be what is wobbling. Hence I expect the rubber to be failing rather than the whole balancer to be sitting on crooked. However I'm definitely not sure on this and will let you know what I find!
   1. Regarding timing - it's definitely not wildly off as otherwise there would be pinging (if it's too advanced) or lack of power (if it's too retarded). Neither is the case so I can't see it being off by more than a few degrees at worst.
4. AM balancer - great point! I did actually order this one here from Febest. I've had great experiences with their suspension bushings so I thought I give it a try. Other factors impacting my decision were price and availability - the OE one seemed to be available only either shipping from overseas, or ordering from a dealer where you can never be sure about the availability and when it will actually arrive. I couldn't find many reviews for this part though so agree this is a bit of a gamble. Let's see! Regarding the timing marks, well if they're off I'll have to measure TDC myself and put the marks in? Annoying but no disaster.

 

[powderpig]

The Febest one is the one that was way off, like 30-40 degree. Messed me up for a few hr on a new build trying to figure out the issue. One hates to pull the fan shroud, fan an take a pulley after installing on a stand. What the customer wanted.

 

[OrangeCrusher]

Oh wow, thanks for letting me know @powderpig ! I'll check the timing marks before putting it on. Should be able to take the positions from the old one - well as long as the inner and outer parts haven't rotated against each other We'll see!

 

[alia176]

Like said above check fan clutch and I would retard the timing. 5-6 degrees seems a bit much.

Before I went to a Turbo, 8 deg was the de facto standard for anyone living/driving at elevation. I wonder if this thought process has changed!

 

[alia176]

First question - this cannot be normal? It must be possible to go up this interstate while flowing with traffic? Or is the stock cooling system so weak that this is not possible by design?

You're on 37s at 7k with an almost 30 yr engine. So, let's see, 3% loss of hp per 1,000' = 21% loss of hp on top of a tired (assuming) engine trying to spin 37s with 4.10s.

I don't see an issue! You're not overheating, just flogging the piss out of the old gal, and she's burping coolant. Hell yeah, keep sending it.

Can it stand to have a $1600 Ron Davis radiator in it - hell yeah, but the oem brass units are known to be quite fabulous. I'd tip the condenser forward, and give the radiator and the condenser a Purple power degrease/wash just to make sure the air flow path is unobstructed. Also, the foam seal around the perimeter of the radiator is necessary to force the incoming air through the radiator vs going around it.

 

[80t0ylc]

The thing I see that jumps out the most, is you have no sealing between the Fan shroud and the Radiator. So, Even when your fan engages, it is pulling hot air from the engine bay, and not thru the Radiator. The Radiator is only recieving air thru it from the speed of the cruiser thru the air. cheap fix would to at least foam this up or create some sort of way to seal the shroud to the radiator. Then at least foam the radiator to the Top and bottom front support. Then for sure you should not have any hot air being pulled from the engine bay by the fan shroud. Even if you replace the Radiator, you need to foam the Shroud to the radiator. Phil mentions this as one of the things that make his cruiser happy.
CSF was not a bad radiator if one took the time to make it work properly once installed.
Interesting, your Harmonic balancer is wobbling? A good possibility, Timing may be off, as the rubber has now failed between the two metal bits, possibly allowing the outer to slip under stress of the Accessory belts. You might not be timed right.
Maybe your timing is more off than you think. Becareful of the After market Balancers, I have used some(AM) in the past, and had to reclock the timing mark(after chasing timing issues with an engine).

Robbie, I seriously agree with you about the sealing of the shroud to the radiator. But what does one do to make the CSF radiator work for a modified 80 with armor and larger than stock tires? (Mine is a ‘94 1FZ) I love the idea of the copper/brass tanks, but it would not cool as well as the TYC radiator that I replaced it with.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, @powderpig !

Here my view on the points you raised:

1. Sealing fan shroud / radiator: I measured the gap and it is about 1/4". It may have looked more on the photos or videos, that was because I had everything loose to see how I can best take the thermal imagery. A gap of 1/4" is very small compared to the about 30"x 20" overall extend of the radiator. There is no way for a significant amount of air to creep through this small gap. Sure, some air will get through. But I cannot see this sealing action leading to more than say a 2-5% improvement. It just doesn't seem worth it given I'm now convinced the radiator itself is the main issue.
2. CSF 2517 radiator. Based on extensive reading of other people's experiences with this, I am convinced that it has a sub-par cooling performance and is the main issue. I'm sure if I would be living in a more temperate climate, this radiator would be doing perfectly fine - but I'm not. June to September it's about about 100F every day here. That radiator is simply not up to the task under these conditions as many in this forum previously have experienced. I'm actually surprised this information somehow got lost and nobody mentioned it in this thread.
3. Wobbling current balancer / timing - that's an interesting point! I hadn't thought about that. I think it's unlikely for this to be the case - reason is when I look at it, the inner part looks fine. The outer part - that is connected to the inner part via rubber - seems to be what is wobbling. Hence I expect the rubber to be failing rather than the whole balancer to be sitting on crooked. However I'm definitely not sure on this and will let you know what I find!
   1. Regarding timing - it's definitely not wildly off as otherwise there would be pinging (if it's too advanced) or lack of power (if it's too retarded). Neither is the case so I can't see it being off by more than a few degrees at worst.
4. AM balancer - great point! I did actually order this one here from Febest. I've had great experiences with their suspension bushings so I thought I give it a try. Other factors impacting my decision were price and availability - the OE one seemed to be available only either shipping from overseas, or ordering from a dealer where you can never be sure about the availability and when it will actually arrive. I couldn't find many reviews for this part though so agree this is a bit of a gamble. Let's see! Regarding the timing marks, well if they're off I'll have to measure TDC myself and put the marks in? Annoying but no disaster.

The moment I replaced my CSF 2517 radiator with a TYC, my cooling issues went away. I had similar issues to what you have. I would have preferred to keep the CSF, being it has metal tanks. Another suggestion would be to get the gearing in your drivetrain more suitable for your larger tires. The 1FZ works pretty hard to move the 80 around, but when you handicap it with larger tires and armor, it needs all the help you can give it.

 

[OrangeCrusher]

Thanks for sharing your experience with the CSF radiator, @80t0ylc !

Regarding gearing ratio, I have thought about that but am not convinced it will make any difference. It would just shift the optimal gear and RPMs around.
E.g. on this particular grade on I-80, right now it does about 4,250rpm at 70mph in 2nd gear. (The tires are nominally 37s but currently pretty worn and closer to 35" real height)
With a 5.29 re-gear, it would be doing 29% more rpm. So you'd need 5,500rpm in 2nd which is not possible.

So you have two options:

1. Do it in 3rd. To get to 70mph you'd be at 3,600rpm. Now that's 650rpm less than what we had with a 4.1 ratio. It probably won't be able to keep that speed but settle at a somewhat lower speed. The fan will now turn slower and if anything the cooling system is probably under more strain.
2. Keep it in 2nd but just go slower. Maybe 65mph with 5,000rpm. I guess this would put less strain on the cooling system but you are also factually be going slower, something I can also do with the current gearing ratio. The only difference is that the fan is now spinning faster. If that is the goal, a larger pulley on the water pump / fan is probably an easier way to achieve this goal than a re-gear?

The only real difference would probably if you could get the torque converter to lock, as that would remove the losses resulting from that. But you'd need a drastic re-gear to achieve that.

 

[OrangeCrusher]

Got around to checking the timing - @powderpig:

1. Confirmed the harmonic balancer timing mark is correct: Video
2. Measured timing (E1 - TE1 set, in neutral, warmed up): Video

So it's sitting at 7degrees BTDC. A bit higher than what I remember but not crazy. @alia176 about the 8degrees that you mentioned.

 

[OrangeCrusher]

So, the Koyo radiator arrived.

Or so I thought!

What was actually in the box is a "CSF 3689", which apparently fits a Mazda CX-9. Fantastic!

Ordered from Autoplicity.

 

[alia176]

Just thought of something, and that's the cats could use a refresh. They're probably partially clogging due to years of ****eries. I think yours is the dual side by side jobber? Soaking them in a deep fryer with hot water and muriatic acid cleans up the expensive catalyst inside. This should free up at least .04579% of hp I bet

 

[OrangeCrusher]

The cats have been deleted by PO.

So it also doesn't pass smog test etc. As this is not my daily driver I was able to register it as a vintage vehicle, eliminating the need for smog tests where I live.

I don't really like the fairly strong smell from the exhaust but haven't decided what if anything to do about it. The OE cats are pretty expensive. Aftermarket ones can be found for very good price, but no idea if they are of any use or complete junk.

 

[alia176]

well, that took care of that!