1FZ engine building and blueprinting

[hazard]

Hi
I've bought a used engine, trans, and transfer to build up and replace in my '97 80. Doing this as a hobby as I like building engines. Nothing wrong with what I have except it's gutless and guzzles.
Plan to do a TRUE blueprint just because I can and like doing it ( I know every one will say its a waste.) Likely will be a 105 mm stroker with minimal overbore. Ideally I will benchmark on dyno after stroking and then make other mods as time goes on. A midlife crisis project. ( I know everyone will also call this a large waste of money as its hugely expensive and I should just Turbo. But power is not the point and I have more money than time.)
I have already done many design calcs to see what I can do and plan components, but detailed specs are nowhere available for this engine. When I receive the core I will be able to, and will for the blueprint, measure all. However I would like to get started on more detailed engine calcs.
Does anyone have a block schematic that has all the measurements such as crank to deck heights etc? Also would like all stock cam specs as it will be a huge pain to measure all accurately, and stock Combustion chamber cc's?
Willing to share all calcs when done, already have rod ratios, multiple bore stoke ratios etc.
Will post a build thread when I start but it will be slow as I live in a remote area far from machine shops and supply stores.

 

[sbman]

If you live in Southern California I have a disassembled block here you can measure. I don't have a crank though. I also have a head that you can take measurements on, and some pistons. No rods on hand either.

 

[hazard]

If you live in Southern California I have a disassembled block here you can measure. I don't have a crank though. I also have a head that you can take measurements on, and some pistons. No rods on hand either.

Thanks sbman but I live in the remotes of BC. My core should arrive shortly and I will begin measuring

 

[scottryana]

105 stroker?... hope you don't like revs. The rod length to stroke length ratio is already not great, once you stroke it to 105 and fit a shorter rod so you don't have a piston sticking half out the bore it will be considerably worse.

are you in the US? If so you will be working with the funky combustion chamber shape with the large intruding quench pads that shroud the valves. Since you're going to need custom pistons anyway I would clean up the combustion chamber first and CC it yourself so that you know what dish to do with your pistons.

 

[hazard]

105 stroker?... hope you don't like revs. The rod length to stroke length ratio is already not great, once you stroke it to 105 and fit a shorter rod so you don't have a piston sticking half out the bore it will be considerably worse.

are you in the US? If so you will be working with the funky combustion chamber shape with the large intruding quench pads that shroud the valves. Since you're going to need custom pistons anyway I would clean up the combustion chamber first and CC it yourself so that you know what dish to do with your pistons.

I was pretty sure I would be getting these comments and any info is appreciated until I can measure myself.
As for stroking I can't find much but I know they have stroked up to 107 in the UAE but they had to use different length aluminum rods. Up to 105 stock rod length is used, only piston pin height is changed, and I can make that whatever I want as pistons are custom. Most likely gonna use 37mm pin height which will achieve a positive deck of 0.0006219mm. I will plan head gasket thickness after, but Cometic makes them stock from 0.040-0.120 so lots of room for adjustments. Will also have to plan around possible head and block decking once I measure parts then plan actual pin height and gasket, with a mind to not changing cam relationship.
I am told 105 stroke only requires very minor block grinding but we will see, once I measure I may even consider 107 but pretty sure that would make pin height cause poor piston/wall oiling, so poor reliability.
Depending on final mix, 105 stroke will have a bore/stroke ratio of 0.99 as opposed to stock 1.05. This is only slightly undersquare and totally good for any engine. Many engines can rev to 8,000+ with this ratio. It is better for torque, scavenging, and creates less heat to cyl transfer and more efficiency. Only slightly increased wall friction.
Piston speed is also well within reasonable range, especially with forged pistons. It is 34fps@3,000 and 69fps@6,000 as opposed to stock at 31/62. 75fps is acceptable with forged.
Rod/stroke ratio should also be fine at 1.46 compared to 1.62 stock. many production and performance engines run in the 1.4-1.8 ranges, although many say ideal is 1.75, but that is very highly debated amongst the experts. However I may still change rod length yet.
You are right regarding combustion chambers but its totally do able. It will be a lot of calculating before I modify, I may even run stock on dyno first. Need to calculate many things such as dynamic compression ratio first. Final components wont be chosen until cam choice. I would like to design around stock cam first as it would likely give highest dynamic, depending on static.
Like I said, there are literally hundreds of calculations to do before I can begin choosing components that will work together for my application, which is a totally streetable improved power and mileage engine.

If anyone knows anyone who has stroked one of these please put me in touch.

 

[scottryana]

Well I think you might be missing the weight factor, yes, the ratios are ok, but you are swinging a lot larger rod and piston than the cars you quoted that might also have rod/stroke ratio's under 1.5

But here is some data for you:

Block Height is: 9.585"
Rod Length is: 6.062-6.063"
P.E. Bore is: 1.0247"
B.E. Bore is: 2.3830"

Bore Diameter: 100mm

I am sure I have anything else you might need. I did custom rods and pistons not long ago, but I don't feel safe running even 7,500rpms at stock stroke.

 

[dogfishlake]

Very interesting. You certainly seem to know your stuff and have done a lot of research. Applying current ideas and build technology to a 97 production design should yield pretty decent results. Like you said, it may not be cost effective, but by sharing with the rest of us I hope you at least see the value of your contribution to the community. There have been only a few out of the box builds here. @scottryana has done huge legwork as well, and is definitely worth a listen too. Good luck and keep sharing!

 

[Str8Razor]

@NLXTACY didn't you go down this path?

 

[scottryana]

Oh let me also add that stock compression height is 1.653"

One place that you could likely lose some beef is in the piston pin area. The stock pin is 1.0247, with a pin that diameter moving it up into the compression height limits how high you can go. If you are going to go custom pistons and are going to do something lighter weight like an asymmetrical or X-forging, you could easily come down to say a .870" pin. That would also reduce the mass if you want to run higher RPMs. Running a high strength pin like a Diamond TP1, would be much stronger and likely 60% the weight of the stock 1.0247" pin.

 

[scottryana]

And I think more importantly than custom rods and Pistons will be the valvetrain. Getting the valves unshrowded, enlarging the valves, cleaning up the intake and exhaust runners and ports. Ditching the stock shim over bucket with a shimless setup, running a bigger cam with more lift and duration.

I would very seriously consider starting with a GEN II 1FZFE head.... we did not get them here in the US but I am sure you could find them. The combustion chamber is worlds better, the intake ports are larger, they are just a better design. The only problem is there isn't a distributor hole in the side. But if you're going to run a bigger cam, a big stroker, and increase the revs, you are easily going to overwhelm the stock MAF so you are going to have to go to a standalone ECU, and if you are at that point, you might as well add a ROSS or ATI crank damper with crank trigger and run sequential ignition with a coil on plug setup.

 

[hazard]

Well I think you might be missing the weight factor, yes, the ratios are ok, but you are swinging a lot larger rod and piston than the cars you quoted that might also have rod/stroke ratio's under 1.5

But here is some data for you:

Block Height is: 9.585"
Rod Length is: 6.062-6.063"
P.E. Bore is: 1.0247"
B.E. Bore is: 2.3830"

Bore Diameter: 100mm

I am sure I have anything else you might need. I did custom rods and pistons not long ago, but I don't feel safe running even 7,500rpms at stock stroke.

Not sure what you mean by weight, as an example, stock Chev SB 400 Rod/stroke is 1.48:1 and can run 5500 in stock form, I will definitely be using aftermarket performance pistons, rings, pins, and rods, which will be lighter weight tho'. Thanks for confirming my specs.

 

[hazard]

scottryana I assume you mean Piston Compression distance? If so thanks, I can proceed with calcs before teardown, but will still need more, such as piston lands and ring size. For custom pistons I will calculate if I can lower these somewhat to lower piston CD in order to see what strokes would be viable. Thanks

 

[hazard]

And I think more importantly than custom rods and Pistons will be the valvetrain. Getting the valves unshrowded, enlarging the valves, cleaning up the intake and exhaust runners and ports. Ditching the stock shim over bucket with a shimless setup, running a bigger cam with more lift and duration.

I would very seriously consider starting with a GEN II 1FZFE head.... we did not get them here in the US but I am sure you could find them. The combustion chamber is worlds better, the intake ports are larger, they are just a better design. The only problem is there isn't a distributor hole in the side. But if you're going to run a bigger cam, a big stroker, and increase the revs, you are easily going to overwhelm the stock MAF so you are going to have to go to a standalone ECU, and if you are at that point, you might as well add a ROSS or ATI crank damper with crank trigger and run sequential ignition with a coil on plug setup.

View attachment 1431769

Just to reiterate my hopeful build: I don't plan on high revs, probably 5,500 or so. My goal is to increase Torque, and therefore HP, across the band with a fairly low Torque peak. I would like to dyno after stroking and full blueprint/balance, but no other mods, to see gains over stock (blueprint probably adds nothing, just the stroking). At that point I would start mods, beginning with, if I can find them, a complete (head, intake, cam (if it is different), MAF, ignition, Computer, etc., and all that is necessary) from a 105 1FZ. After that possibly a cam change and headwork. Then who knows, lots of potential. If possible I would like to dyno after each group of mods. This will probably take me a couple years total. My build may not even require much headwork as my goals are not high rpm, just basic cleanup and match.

 

[hazard]

Well I think you might be missing the weight factor, yes, the ratios are ok, but you are swinging a lot larger rod and piston than the cars you quoted that might also have rod/stroke ratio's under 1.5

But here is some data for you:

Block Height is: 9.585"
Rod Length is: 6.062-6.063"
P.E. Bore is: 1.0247"
B.E. Bore is: 2.3830"

Bore Diameter: 100mm

I am sure I have anything else you might need. I did custom rods and pistons not long ago, but I don't feel safe running even 7,500rpms at stock stroke.

Any chance anyone would have stock and 105 1FZ cam specs, and any information on the 105 1FZ (I don't know what else to call it, as there is not much info on the net) such as all the differences, any part numbers, and where to source?
I already know it has coil over ignition, different head, different intake and MAF.

 

[hazard]

Anyone know if there is another label for the 150 series 1FZ, trying to internet search but need another name, or do I just use "150 series 1FZ" or 1998 !fz?
Thanks

 

[scottryana]

No I mean piston compression height, which is the distance from the center of the pin bore to the top of the piston.

By weight I mean your 1FZ rod and piston combo will weigh more than the engines you quoted with the same rod length to stroke ratio. Even with light weight aftermarket forged rods, pistons and wrist pins, unless you go very custom will be over 1600g, where a LS7 is 1078g. That is almost a 60% weight increase.

For piston lands and ring sizes if you are going custom you will be able to spec that? For rings I went with

Top groove width 0.07" dia. 3.639"
2nd groove width 0.08" dia. 3.631"
3rd groove width 0.159" dia. 3.651"

Which match up to the Nippon piston rings for a 101mm 1FZ, part number SWT10184ZZ, which is Toyota part number 13011-66021

scottryana I assume you mean Piston Compression distance? If so thanks, I can proceed with calcs before teardown, but will still need more, such as piston lands and ring size. For custom pistons I will calculate if I can lower these somewhat to lower piston CD in order to see what strokes would be viable. Thanks

 

[scottryana]

And as long as your goal is not to make a rev monster you should be fine with the longer stroke, I was just going off what you said earlier about engines being able to rev to 8000+rpms with the same ratios. And ratios are fine but you just missed the fact that these components are not the same size as say Chevy rods and pistons. For example we can use the SBC 400 that you quoted and I will even go a step further and do it bored and stroked to 428cu/in

Chevy in stock form used a very short 5.565" rod the 1FZ uses a 6.063" rod
Even if we use a bored and stroked 428cu/in that rod length is 6"
The Chevy BE bore is 2.099" the 1FZ is 2.383"
PE bore Chevy is .990" 1FZ is 1.024"
The width of the rods is Chevy .940" and 1FZ is 1.096"

There is just a lot more beef every where on the 1FZ rod. This means rod weight for a SBC400 are around 400-420g while for the 1FZ they are over 700g, like my example which is quite an expensive rod is 767g. Almost a 180% more weight than the SBC rod.

Just to reiterate my hopeful build: I don't plan on high revs, probably 5,500 or so. My goal is to increase Torque, and therefore HP, across the band with a fairly low Torque peak. I would like to dyno after stroking and full blueprint/balance, but no other mods, to see gains over stock (blueprint probably adds nothing, just the stroking). At that point I would start mods, beginning with, if I can find them, a complete (head, intake, cam (if it is different), MAF, ignition, Computer, etc., and all that is necessary) from a 105 1FZ. After that possibly a cam change and headwork. Then who knows, lots of potential. If possible I would like to dyno after each group of mods. This will probably take me a couple years total. My build may not even require much headwork as my goals are not high rpm, just basic cleanup and match.

 

[hazard]

No I mean piston compression height, which is the distance from the center of the pin bore to the top of the piston.

By weight I mean your 1FZ rod and piston combo will weigh more than the engines you quoted with the same rod length to stroke ratio. Even with light weight aftermarket forged rods, pistons and wrist pins, unless you go very custom will be over 1400g, where a LS7 is 1078g. That is almost a 40% weight increase.

For piston lands and ring sizes if you are going custom you will be able to spec that? For rings I went with

Top groove width 0.07" dia. 3.639"
2nd groove width 0.08" dia. 3.631"
3rd groove width 0.159" dia. 3.651"

Which match up to the Nippon piston rings for a 101mm 1FZ, part number SWT10184ZZ, which is Toyota part number 13011-66021

Thanks for the specs.
Not to nit pick, and maybe I am wrong, but generally rod pin center to piston top is referred to as "compression distance", so that it is not confused with the much used "compression height" which is referring to piston top to block deck at TDC.
Far from final decision but one rod and piston set I am looking at weighs in at 1254 gms. and as I am not targeting beyond stock revs I'm likely to be OK. I will map piston acceleration and speed, rod angularity etc. before I choose final components, rev limits etc.
Cheers

 

[scottryana]

1254g doesn't include the wrist pin I would bet, which is likely a 1.024"x2.750" variable wall thickness which is between 190-275g so your 1254 is now 1529g, still 150% of the LS rod, piston and wrist pin.

I guess you can call it whatever you like, but CP pistons calls it compression height, so I would use the terms the custom piston manufactures use if you want to get a piston built the way you want.

Thanks for the specs.
Not to nit pick, and maybe I am wrong, but generally rod center to piston top is referred to as "compression distance", so that it is not confused with the much used "compression height" which is referring to piston top to block at TDC.
Far from final decision but one rod and piston set I am looking at weighs in at 1254 gms. and as I am not targeting beyond stock revs I'm likely to be OK. I will map piston acceleration and speed, rod angularity etc. before I choose final components, rev limits etc.
Cheers

 

[hazard]

And as long as your goal is not to make a rev monster you should be fine with the longer stroke, I was just going off what you said earlier about engines being able to rev to 8000+rpms with the same ratios. And ratios are fine but you just missed the fact that these components are not the same size as say Chevy rods and pistons. For example we can use the SBC 400 that you quoted and I will even go a step further and do it bored and stroked to 428cu/in

Chevy in stock form used a very short 5.565" rod the 1FZ uses a 6.063" rod
Even if we use a bored and stroked 428cu/in that rod length is 6"
The Chevy BE bore is 2.099" the 1FZ is 2.383"
PE bore Chevy is .990" 1FZ is 1.024"
The width of the rods is Chevy .940" and 1FZ is 1.096"

There is just a lot more beef every where on the 1FZ rod. This means rod weight for a SBC400 are around 400-420g while for the 1FZ they are over 700g, like my example which is quite an expensive rod is 767g. Almost a 180% more weight than the SBC rod.

Agreed, you got me.
Thanks