Oil Separator, possible cause and consecuence
- Thread starter pezpon
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Oil in the intake plenum is the concern, possibly adding to the EGR failure is the thought.
Does MH make a clear glass catch bottle?
That's the main reason I'm looking into the Condensator and the CP units.
I think Phil pretty much hit it on the nose in his last post
As engines get older, the more blowby you get and the more chance of carbon mucking up your emissions equipment
I'm quite sure the only reasons it's not factory equipment on most cars today are due to the added maintenance and waste
I had my throttle off last night and there is some oil residue on the throttle plate. With my blow-by from mileage I might want to hook up the catch can again to see how much there is. I will weight till after there is no more freezing weather as the paper filter freezes up on me in the freezing weather.
What emission equipment would get messed up with much oil blow-by?
The PCV is past the throttle plate and that is where the intake plenum sucks up the blow-by gases. There is the cat and O2's .
If you have high mileage you probably have leaking valve seals like I do so raw oil is getting into the cylinders anyway. So a little oil vapor will do little to foul what ever emissions compared to what the raw burning oil is doing.
Still it is a good idea even if to just keep a note on how much and how fast the catch can fills up. When I had the timing some how get advanced, it filled up the catch can quite quickly with the multi layered sludge that built up in the can.
What emission equipment would get messed up with much oil blow-by?
The PCV is past the throttle plate and that is where the intake plenum sucks up the blow-by gases. There is the cat and O2's .
If you have high mileage you probably have leaking valve seals like I do so raw oil is getting into the cylinders anyway. So a little oil vapor will do little to foul what ever emissions compared to what the raw burning oil is doing.
Still it is a good idea even if to just keep a note on how much and how fast the catch can fills up. When I had the timing some how get advanced, it filled up the catch can quite quickly with the multi layered sludge that built up in the can.
The little tiny bit of oil you catch is a spit in the bucket of oil vapor and blow by smoke that runs through the PCV valve, especially on a high mileage engine. That's why it doesn't matter.
My cruiser is not high mileage and Im surprised of the amount of oil I see. True not a lot but I like the idea of it in the catch can then the intake.
The article below give a good overview of the system and reason to have it.
PCV System Oil and Air Separator
The crankcase in a car is used as a storage place for oil, usually in a pan located below the crankshaft. While the crankshaft and the oil aren't intended to come into contact (because if they did the oil would get frothed up like a thick, black milkshake), oil vapors can still find their way into the blow-by gases. It's not a good idea for these oil vapors to be recirculated back into the cylinders along with the blow-by gases because they make the gas-air mixture too combustible, equivalent to lowering the octane of the gasoline, which in some engines can degrade performance slightly and in older engines can even cause backfire when the gas-air mixture combusts prematurely. The oil vapors can also coat the air intake with an oily film, gradually clogging the air flow over time. If you don't drive a high performance vehicle, these problems aren't exactly crucial to your car's operation and the oil build-up can be scrubbed out periodically during maintenance, but some people (and some car manufacturers) prefer to have something that will scrub the oil out of the blow-by gases before they're recirculated in the first place. Enter the oil and air separator.
The idea of an oil and air separator is to extract the oil from the air before it's sent back to the intake manifold and put it someplace where it won't cause a problem, either back in the crankcase or in a small receptacle called a catch can. Not all cars come with built-in oil separators and not all cars necessarily need them, but they can be purchased as aftermarket items. And if you have the necessary DIY skills, you can even make one yourself. There are actually a number of different ways in which these oil and air separators can work. Probably the most common kind blows the oily air through a mesh filter. The oil droplets are trapped in the mesh while the air passes through. The most effective such filters are made up of microfibers, which can trap very small particles of oil. Alternatively, the air and oil filter may require the recycled gases to go down a tube with holes in its side. The lighter air molecules escape through the holes, while the heavier oil droplets fall all the way to the bottom, where they can be removed. And some advanced systems use a centrifuge to drive the heavier oil droplets out of the air. The oil coalesces on the sides of the centrifuge and can be channeled back into the crankcase.
and the article is from where ? got a link ?
Maybe the filter is clogged and its just bypassing the filter?It looked possible with mine so I dropped the filter and stuffed the bowl with a copper scub pad
Forgot about this thread. Wanted to add that when I drain the catch can, it fills back up to where if was after just a few drives so I don't think the foam filter is clogged. Is it possible that once a certain level of oil is collected that the oil vapor just blows by? I will try the copper scrub pad and see if it makes a difference.
Slight thread hijack here: anyone else installed an oil catch and then gotten a check engine light?
I know this (ahem) guy, who just installed one. He might or might not have cranked the truck while the hose was removed, which made the truck run like hammered excrement for all of maybe 10 seconds. "He" shut off the truck, finished installing the catch, and the truck ran fine for the first short drive, nothing lit up. Now it comes on every time. Thoughts?
I know this (ahem) guy, who just installed one. He might or might not have cranked the truck while the hose was removed, which made the truck run like hammered excrement for all of maybe 10 seconds. "He" shut off the truck, finished installing the catch, and the truck ran fine for the first short drive, nothing lit up. Now it comes on every time. Thoughts?
PCV System Oil and Air Separator
The crankcase in a car is used as a storage place for oil, usually in a pan located below the crankshaft. While the crankshaft and the oil aren't intended to come into contact (because if they did the oil would get frothed up like a thick, black milkshake), oil vapors can still find their way into the blow-by gases. It's not a good idea for these oil vapors to be recirculated back into the cylinders along with the blow-by gases because they make the gas-air mixture too combustible, equivalent to lowering the octane of the gasoline, which in some engines can degrade performance slightly and in older engines can even cause backfire when the gas-air mixture combusts prematurely.
The oil vapors can also coat the air intake with an oily film, gradually clogging the air flow over time. If you don't drive a high performance vehicle, these problems aren't exactly crucial to your car's operation and the oil build-up can be scrubbed out periodically during maintenance, but some people (and some car manufacturers) prefer to have something that will scrub the oil out of the blow-by gases before they're recirculated in the first place. Enter the oil and air separator.
The idea of an oil and air separator is to extract the oil from the air before it's sent back to the intake manifold and put it someplace where it won't cause a problem, either back in the crankcase or in a small receptacle called a catch can. Not all cars come with built-in oil separators and not all cars necessarily need them, but they can be purchased as aftermarket items. And if you have the necessary DIY skills, you can even make one yourself. There are actually a number of different ways in which these oil and air separators can work. Probably the most common kind blows the oily air through a mesh filter. The oil droplets are trapped in the mesh while the air passes through. The most effective such filters are made up of microfibers, which can trap very small particles of oil. Alternatively, the air and oil filter may require the recycled gases to go down a tube with holes in its side. The lighter air molecules escape through the holes, while the heavier oil droplets fall all the way to the bottom, where they can be removed. And some advanced systems use a centrifuge to drive the heavier oil droplets out of the air. The oil coalesces on the sides of the centrifuge and can be channeled back into the crankcase.
The crankcase in a car is used as a storage place for oil, usually in a pan located below the crankshaft. While the crankshaft and the oil aren't intended to come into contact (because if they did the oil would get frothed up like a thick, black milkshake), oil vapors can still find their way into the blow-by gases. It's not a good idea for these oil vapors to be recirculated back into the cylinders along with the blow-by gases because they make the gas-air mixture too combustible, equivalent to lowering the octane of the gasoline, which in some engines can degrade performance slightly and in older engines can even cause backfire when the gas-air mixture combusts prematurely.
The oil vapors can also coat the air intake with an oily film, gradually clogging the air flow over time. If you don't drive a high performance vehicle, these problems aren't exactly crucial to your car's operation and the oil build-up can be scrubbed out periodically during maintenance, but some people (and some car manufacturers) prefer to have something that will scrub the oil out of the blow-by gases before they're recirculated in the first place. Enter the oil and air separator.
The idea of an oil and air separator is to extract the oil from the air before it's sent back to the intake manifold and put it someplace where it won't cause a problem, either back in the crankcase or in a small receptacle called a catch can. Not all cars come with built-in oil separators and not all cars necessarily need them, but they can be purchased as aftermarket items. And if you have the necessary DIY skills, you can even make one yourself. There are actually a number of different ways in which these oil and air separators can work. Probably the most common kind blows the oily air through a mesh filter. The oil droplets are trapped in the mesh while the air passes through. The most effective such filters are made up of microfibers, which can trap very small particles of oil. Alternatively, the air and oil filter may require the recycled gases to go down a tube with holes in its side. The lighter air molecules escape through the holes, while the heavier oil droplets fall all the way to the bottom, where they can be removed. And some advanced systems use a centrifuge to drive the heavier oil droplets out of the air. The oil coalesces on the sides of the centrifuge and can be channeled back into the crankcase.
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Great answer....much appreciated!
That article is clearly someone's unfounded opinion.
Manufactureres have been putting coalescing filters in PCV lines since the early days of closed crankcase ventilation. However, Ford (5.0L H.O. engines, for one) and others had problems with the filters clogging. Toyota and others deliberately chose to forgo any type of feature to capture the oil mist on many gasoline engines because there is no real drawback.
Manufactureres have been putting coalescing filters in PCV lines since the early days of closed crankcase ventilation. However, Ford (5.0L H.O. engines, for one) and others had problems with the filters clogging. Toyota and others deliberately chose to forgo any type of feature to capture the oil mist on many gasoline engines because there is no real drawback.
X2. I don't get it. Who cares if you get a little oily residue on the inside of your intake?
This junk in the intake came from somewhere. Was it from the PCV or was it from the EGR?
My machine shop dropped the ball on this one. He said that stuff was "in there forever" and it wouldn't come loose. Bull****. I scrubbed for a few hours. I really didn't want that crap to go through my new engine.
So what caused all this intake buildup? Exhaust gases or PCV blowby? I'd like to know more about where it came from so I could try to minimize it.
This was from a 162K mile 1FZ-FE that was probably not well cared for... Until now at least.
My machine shop dropped the ball on this one. He said that stuff was "in there forever" and it wouldn't come loose. Bull****. I scrubbed for a few hours. I really didn't want that crap to go through my new engine.
So what caused all this intake buildup? Exhaust gases or PCV blowby? I'd like to know more about where it came from so I could try to minimize it.
This was from a 162K mile 1FZ-FE that was probably not well cared for... Until now at least.
Unfounded
Sources
Bastias, Dr. Pedro, et al. "Air/Oil Separator with Minimal Space Requirements in the Crankcase Venting System." Dana.com. (May 15, 2012) http://www.dana.com/wps/wcm/connect...9/dext-PublMTZOilseparation_e.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
Blackwood, Jim. "Positive Crankcase Ventilation." British V8. (May 15, 2012) http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Positive-Crankcase-Ventilation-PCV.htm
Conceptual Polymer. "PCV Line Removal 102." (May 15, 2012) http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/PCV Line Oil Removal 102.pdf
Secondchancegarage.com. "Positive Crankcase Ventilation." (May 15, 2012) http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/239.cfm
University of Missouri. "Positive Crankcase Ventilation System." (May 15, 2012) http://iml.missouri.edu/catalog_supplements/70-1833-I/samplecurriculum.pdf
Yahoo Autos. "What is the PCV valve and what does it do?" (May 15, 2012) http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/engine/ques079_1.html
Unfounded
In a sense, it is just one more thing to service.
The 2.0T FSI engine in my GTI has crazy blow-by and two crankcase breathers - one of them dumping straight into the turbo. A lot of oil ends up in the intercooler and associated hoses. VW thought this was just fine. I don't much like having my intercooler fill up with oil so i am going to end up with two catch cans on that car.
On the other side of the coin, some Volvo engines come with Mann oil separators from the factory.
was the issue a design flaw? or was it lack of maintenance on the car owners part?
