How to slow down the 80 from rocking so much while wheeling - body control (6 Viewers)
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From the looks of the videos you posted and the adjustments you have set on the shock, it looks like you are undersprung and underdamped. Just noticing the extra oscillations on some of those smaller movements and how far down your spring is compressing (wheelwell space getting swallowed up). What coils are you running specifically?
alia176
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C59-170 front, 3" 220lb
C59-171 rear, 3" 440lb
I don't see any 3" springs heavier than 440# so I might be hosed with this vendor. If I'm not mistaken, you're running 4" heavies from Slee, which are also 440# and your right is at 8k so what springs are you running? Hmm, I do have a set of Air Lift 1000 air bags that I can toss back inside these 3" coils as a cheap experiment
Losing weight isn't an option for me as I like them chubby
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I’m at 4” all around which, with 35s, 12” shocks and bump stop extension I feel gives me a better uptravel/down travel ratio (more uptravel). The rear coils I run are the C59-319 coil which is a 375#/inch at 21.7” free height. The key here is the 375#/inch. That is the spring rate of the coil spring. It is the heaviest coil spring I could find from any manufacturer and am happy with it.
Looking at the C59-171, I can already see it’s not up to the task for your 80. It is sold as a 3” lift with 440# of extra load. (I also see it advertised at a 2” lift with 800# load here Coil Spring - https://www.dobinsonsprings.com/shop-online/toy-69_rear_coil-spring_c59-171-detail )
The real specs of the coil are 320#/inch at 19” free height. Cross reference this to an OME coil and the specs match up with their 864 coil, which I have ran years ago and is definitely undergunned on an over 7k 80.
Looking at the C59-171, I can already see it’s not up to the task for your 80. It is sold as a 3” lift with 440# of extra load. (I also see it advertised at a 2” lift with 800# load here Coil Spring - https://www.dobinsonsprings.com/shop-online/toy-69_rear_coil-spring_c59-171-detail )
The real specs of the coil are 320#/inch at 19” free height. Cross reference this to an OME coil and the specs match up with their 864 coil, which I have ran years ago and is definitely undergunned on an over 7k 80.
No idea with all the load I now carry. I think the last time I had the truck on a scale it was around 4,100#.Still light compared to the Yota monsters we were with, with the exception of @pappy ?? - John, what you weight??
That’s entirely unacceptable suspension performance from what I’m seeing. I’ve had 5 adults onboard with mountain bikes hanging off the back of my 80 with FCP shocks and 4” Dobi Flexi coils flat out raging up a s***ty FS road pre-running an enduro race (the bikes) and it was just outstanding. One of my son’s friends said to him after “I didn’t think that truck could do that”.
As somebody who just moved to the new Dobi 144/145 dual rate coils, my general impression is that we suffer from being under-sprung and over focused on damping to fix that. Swapping coils from the Flexi, the ability to hit ugly stuff at speed, as in “wait, you need to slow down”, is astounding.
@Andrew Bluemel has a RTT and other stuff, Whiteline rear swaybar, the new 144/145 coils, and just the basic yellow Dobinsons shocks and based on those vids his rig would blow the doors off yours at nearly double the lift height.
Fix the coils and stop worrying about lift height, it’s just keeping you closer the ground. Modern coils are about way more than a single stated spring rate for load compression.
alia176
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- #129
You brought up some good points @Nay, thanks bud. Seems I'm focused on keeping her "low" but maybe to the point of being detrimental. Are you also suggesting going to the Slee 4" coils or change over to a diff set of Dobi coils? I don't see how I could take advantage of any of those tapered/dual/progressive rated rear coils as my load doesn't change. This isn't a DD.
@Andrew Bluemel post up on what you got and the weight, if you have that handy.
@Andrew Bluemel post up on what you got and the weight, if you have that handy.
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I didn't take Nay's comments as being about the height, so much as about mismatched components. Or, springs not suited to the load you carry.
I'm a fan of low lift heights. I've had 4" lift, and 2" lift in cruisers, and 2" lift can be made to work extremely well with the right approach.
I modified stock mounts in my 2" lifted cruiser so I was running shocks for a 4" lift. It had as much down travel as a 4" lift, and was running standard bumpstops, so plenty of up travel too. It was limited by clearance under the diffs more than clearance to the frame. And limited by clearance to the chunky front bumper
7500# rig weight seem like a lot. Certainly a long way more than 440# above curb weight, or GVM no?
(figures for diesel cruiser, but will be very similar for fzj80)
Consolidating what you carry might be what you need to do regardless of springs.
I have been through the diffrent suspension setups in the past 6 years. Also take my reflection with a grain of salt I don’t remember how it road vividly I was 16 and honestly was just happy to be in a Land Cruiser but I have learned a thing or two.
I started with OME 2.5 inch coils and fox shocks. That sucked the Fox shocks were valved too soft and they started leaking after 20k.
Then I jumped to 4 inch flexi coils and get this RANCHO shocks. I actually sorta liked the ranchos haha they were the 9 way adjustable shocks and they did actually change the ride quite a bit. However with a truck that went from being light with just me daily driving it to filled to the brim with camp stuff and 3 people it was clear when i started loading it remotely at all it lunged along very similarly to how yours did in the video. (This was my first hint that I should have realized it wasn‘t a shock issue but a coil issue but i thought it was a shock issue).
From there I swapped the shocks from the RANCHO (broke one with sway bar contact in Moab) to yellow Dobinson shocks.
Overall I was pretty disappointed to be honest with the change I just felt like I lost the adjustment of the Ranchos with no real benifit it was weird they were stiffer off-road but I still was experiencing the lunging of the truck behind it. At least with the Ranchos when i softened them up it felt like it floated over rocky roads way better
Between this segment and the next segment this is when my truck started putting on some weight. Trail Gear bumper with 9500 pound winch, sleeping platform in the back with all the tools I own, a fridge, RTT, and more often then not my daily drive wasn‘t from my house to high school but on long distance trips with friends. So when the truck is being used it is heavy.
It became more noticeable the coils weren’t cutting it mostly when I tore out my whole interior to insulate how much lift height I got out of the 4 inch fleixis that I forgot I had. I realized I had so much stuff on this truck that I lost like 2 inches of lift compared to when it was totally empty. It was only then that I was overworking these coils.
About at the time I realized this, I got on the list for the 3.5 inch tapered coils. It was nice working with the Huddexpo guys and getting on the list and Dobinson underwent a redesign and changed the tapered coil design a little bit so it almost looks more like a heavy duty flexi. And they came in black which I was so happy for with my black truck.
But anyways as far as driving is concerned I threw these on and I put a whiteline rear heavy duty rear sway bar on with @LandCruiserPhil rear sway bar connects. And damn ya its crazy the diffrence I got. Instead of having the truck jello behind any bump I hit it seems that when one tire hits a bump, thats the only tire that hits the bump. It doesn’t ride like a Cadillac It never will, but it feels so much more controlled and bajaing it at 30-40 mph which always felt so uncomfortable and I felt so disconnected from the car is totally gone now it can do it and it feels happy doing it. Even with the tent on it. I really don’t think a coil can be harsh and I am suprised it took me this long to figure out I sorta had a coil issue. And now I love the Dobinons shocks they ride like they should it all works together like it should
If I could do it all over again I wish I just got a kit and called it a day mismatching components to me has never saved me money and just cost me more in the long run. And now that I am finally running the right coils with the right shocks, with the right castor, etc… life is good. And it is worth saying going back and re reading you saying your load doesnt change, my load changes almost once a month like quite a bit.
Tent on, tent off, one person, four people, loaded, unloaded, it changes all the time. But with my experience this setup doesn’t care regardless of what I’m doing it rides the same and its happy. Not trying to sell Dobinson or sugar coat it but ya I am blown away with how much better the truck rides now it really does make me want to drive the truck and for the first time every I would feel confident having my mom or girlfriend drive it it drives like a normal car. And I got almost 2 inches more of lift out of it which was really necessary astheic wise for my truck
These were with my 4 inch fleixis unloaded. And I have a 30mm spacer up front
This is my truck with the new 3.5 tapereds 1/2 loaded (Bike, tent, fridge, individual camp gear)
Great post ^^
alia176
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Thanks @Andrew Bluemel, very informative post and timely.
I’m glad I tagged him, that was a wealth of good info.
I’m not telling anybody to stay at a low lift vs not, it is more work, though, for more problems in my book, so I wouldn’t hesitate to add some lift in order to get the right coil.
Don’t think of these coils in terms of whether or not you change your load. I don’t change mine much. A dual rate coil acts like a swaybar in that as you load one side it stiffens while the other softens, particularly in cornering.
This is what a swaybar does through torsion resistance of the metal rod - it’s twisting when you load it in cornering. It’s not preventing “sway” just by tying the axle ends together, it’s effectively acting on your spring rate. This is not a neutral thing and can cause under/oversteer.
Here’s a video we took for you today. I don’t have swaybars. The first part is a fairly big hit with a rut on the driver’s coming straight into a bump. The second part I didn’t mean to dump like that, but it’s both entertaining and instructive. I slomo’d parts so you can see it better. I love slo mo on my rig, it sounds like the Titanic sinking.
Remember I have the foam cell pros, and these are 38’s. My front has no weight, the rear I have a hitch welded between the frame rails and in the cargo area I carry a full size spare, spare axles, spare driveshaft, hi-lift jack, and tools - it’s not heavy but hardly weight weenie either. I have the Timbren bumps in the rear but not yet in the front, although I do have 2” drops in the front on the factory jounce bump.
Rebound damping of this much firmer dual rate coil is spot on.
I’m not telling anybody to stay at a low lift vs not, it is more work, though, for more problems in my book, so I wouldn’t hesitate to add some lift in order to get the right coil.
Don’t think of these coils in terms of whether or not you change your load. I don’t change mine much. A dual rate coil acts like a swaybar in that as you load one side it stiffens while the other softens, particularly in cornering.
This is what a swaybar does through torsion resistance of the metal rod - it’s twisting when you load it in cornering. It’s not preventing “sway” just by tying the axle ends together, it’s effectively acting on your spring rate. This is not a neutral thing and can cause under/oversteer.
Here’s a video we took for you today. I don’t have swaybars. The first part is a fairly big hit with a rut on the driver’s coming straight into a bump. The second part I didn’t mean to dump like that, but it’s both entertaining and instructive. I slomo’d parts so you can see it better. I love slo mo on my rig, it sounds like the Titanic sinking.
Remember I have the foam cell pros, and these are 38’s. My front has no weight, the rear I have a hitch welded between the frame rails and in the cargo area I carry a full size spare, spare axles, spare driveshaft, hi-lift jack, and tools - it’s not heavy but hardly weight weenie either. I have the Timbren bumps in the rear but not yet in the front, although I do have 2” drops in the front on the factory jounce bump.
Rebound damping of this much firmer dual rate coil is spot on.
Here’s another vid. I have a sloped curb bump into my driveway.
This is regular speed hitting it fast at an angle. You don’t even feel it, no dump, no sway, just absorbed.
Cool thing is, this is a 26” hub to fender lift height on all four corners without any swaybars running 38s. Your truck on e-hill looks like a dump truck ass girl twerking in slo motion and that’s after people convinced you to buy new shocks.
If you’re still stuck on the idea that linear rate springs are somehow better, let’s take a lil’ peak in slo mo. You don’t have IFS this good, or even close.
Trying to help you here before the hive comes back and tells you it’s because you didn’t adjust your shocks properly.
@crikeymike some goods here for you.
This is regular speed hitting it fast at an angle. You don’t even feel it, no dump, no sway, just absorbed.
Cool thing is, this is a 26” hub to fender lift height on all four corners without any swaybars running 38s. Your truck on e-hill looks like a dump truck ass girl twerking in slo motion and that’s after people convinced you to buy new shocks.
If you’re still stuck on the idea that linear rate springs are somehow better, let’s take a lil’ peak in slo mo. You don’t have IFS this good, or even close.
Trying to help you here before the hive comes back and tells you it’s because you didn’t adjust your shocks properly.
@crikeymike some goods here for you.
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Thanks for the visual aids.I’ll add to this that I think no question @Andrew Bluemel can push it harder with that Whiteline rear swaybar and @LandCruiserPhil heim end link setup than I can.
I think it adds to the lack of need for a high end shock for people who aren’t racing (almost 100% of the people here). I don’t care because I’m not racing and I don’t need more maintenance items that are solutions looking for problems, but one of my questions was “how much of this is the new swaybar and links?” I’d say 20%, in terms of race speed if that’s a thing you’re solving for and probably also for being more top heavy.
I’ve always figured that weight costs direct dollars and even more indirect dollars so I never added anything more than necessary. Don’t need all those heavy ass bumpers if you never hit anything.
I think it adds to the lack of need for a high end shock for people who aren’t racing (almost 100% of the people here). I don’t care because I’m not racing and I don’t need more maintenance items that are solutions looking for problems, but one of my questions was “how much of this is the new swaybar and links?” I’d say 20%, in terms of race speed if that’s a thing you’re solving for and probably also for being more top heavy.
I’ve always figured that weight costs direct dollars and even more indirect dollars so I never added anything more than necessary. Don’t need all those heavy ass bumpers if you never hit anything.
are you saying you are using the Dobinsons twin tube NitroGas shocks?
eimkeith
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- are you running panhard correction? Certainly looks like the rear is the majority of the sway, and it looks as if it is top-heavy (like the roll center is too low).
- didn't see it in your signature, so I gotta ask.
- didn't see it in your signature, so I gotta ask.
