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I think Troll is haming it up but the sad truth is the average american has no knowledge of the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and ceritanly not the Federalists Papers and has no concept nor can they comprehend the original intent of government in our lives.

Hell I bet if you ask 10 people what type of goverment we are 9 out of 10 will tell you were are a democracy :doh: when we are a constituional rebuplic! Even worse is people don't even realize why that is important..... For the record Germany was a democracy, they elected Hitler :rolleyes:

Another one that drives me nuts is when the uneducated go around saying the 1st admendment declares a "seperation of church and state" when that is absolutely not in the first admendment, I hear this on the evening news, in shcools, qouted by politicians... Ignorance is our greatest enemy in this country :rolleyes:


*edit* First Amendment for those that care....

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
 
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I have to say it:

All of you that claim to be left, right, republican or democrats all need to stop quoting the founding fathers. Washington, Adams, and many more all condemned the political party approach to government in an elective system (constitutional republics included).

Several more stated that going from two to three will be our downfall....which is exactly how Hitler came to power in Germany. He played to the masses, got grass roots following, established the nazi party to fight the two existing corrupt parties in Germany and won...then proceeded to establish his Reich.

I wish we could simply decide on issues, vote like normal people, and have the vote mean something as the regional tallies are summed up and represented the way it was supposed to be.

Which brings me to the next interesting question: What happens when the masses vote, representatives agree, but you are completely opposed to the result?
 
DanKunz said:
I have to say it:

All of you that claim to be left, right, republican or democrats all need to stop quoting the founding fathers. Washington, Adams, and many more all condemned the political party approach to government in an elective system (constitutional republics included).

Several more stated that going from two to three will be our downfall....which is exactly how Hitler came to power in Germany. He played to the masses, got grass roots following, established the nazi party to fight the two existing corrupt parties in Germany and won...then proceeded to establish his Reich.

I wish we could simply decide on issues, vote like normal people, and have the vote mean something as the regional tallies are summed up and represented the way it was supposed to be.

Which brings me to the next interesting question: What happens when the masses vote, representatives agree, but you are completely opposed to the result?
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You ask for them to prove they were born in the US. And when your proven wrong you complain that it is false and a gov coverup instead of just coming to the realization someone you don't believe should run the gov is running and should stand behind them as one. You will have your chance to remove that person from office in 4 years.

I believe we should stand behind our public officials even though we may feel they are wrong. As long as we can vote them out I see no reason or need to constantly belittle them. Give them a chance. My great grandfather was in a public office as a democrat I have other family members who have been elected as Republicans. My fathers side is loyally Republican. I'm not either as I vote for who I think would better serve the position. I voted for Sanford and thought he did a good job.
 
ClemsonCruiser said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
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Most also misinterpret this as a "separation of church and state" the only thing it is interpreted as is essentially "we won't have a national church" like the Church of England that they fled from.
 
DanKunz said:
I have to say it:

All of you that claim to be left, right, republican or democrats all need to stop quoting the founding fathers. Washington, Adams, and many more all condemned the political party approach to government in an elective system (constitutional republics included).

Several more stated that going from two to three will be our downfall....which is exactly how Hitler came to power in Germany. He played to the masses, got grass roots following, established the nazi party to fight the two existing corrupt parties in Germany and won...then proceeded to establish his Reich.

I wish we could simply decide on issues, vote like normal people, and have the vote mean something as the regional tallies are summed up and represented the way it was supposed to be.

Which brings me to the next interesting question: What happens when the masses vote, representatives agree, but you are completely opposed to the result?
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Dan not trying to pick on you but who qouted a founding father?? And I am unsure of the point you are trying to make here as there were many differing views on how the country should be stuctured...The Federalist papers are a great resource on these varies ideas that led to the ratification of the constitution. Also on a side note Washington had very little to do with the constitution.

The problem with Hitler was there was no constitution/ bill of rights as we have to limit his power over the citizens of Germany. It was a democracy and majority rule. That is what makes the US so special we have a statute of inalienable rights limiting what gov. can do to us....regardless of what the masses think
 
99UZJay said:
Most also misinterpret this as a "separation of church and state" the only thing it is interpreted as is essentially "we won't have a national church" like the Church of England that they fled from.
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I was wondering when you'd show up jay you seem to have a better grasp of such things then most, weren't you a history major :beer:
 
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Trollhole said:
I really think y'all ought to read this. I finished it. There are some really good history lessons in the. Heck I didn't know that the Democrats back in those days wanted to keep slavery and that most southern white men voted democrat.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/seriously-ot/562800-after-civil-war.html
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Strom Thurmond was a democrat originally, lol the parties sort of swapped ideals in the 40's 50's I believe.

But honestly that is why I don't really get into Democrat/ Rebuplican arguement I try to stick to the founding principals as my bearing :beer:
 
eventhough said:
Yup - just as the Federal gov't was originally designed to be small in scope.



Exactly.



I disagree partly. We shouldn't toss out the baby with the bathwater. We need term limits. I say 2 terms of 4 years is enough for most if not any elected position - as you addressed below.



I disagree here too. Government obs need to pair a fair wage for the position. If the jobs do not pay you will end up with a pauper or someone who is so wealthy they do not have to be paid to work. You won't have any regular working stiffs.
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I would agree to a fair wage but it would have to be a fraction of what current positions get paid.

I'd say yes to them covering your montly bills (house payment/rent/insurance/utilites) and then giving you a little spending money for food/vacations/basic items.

But it would not be enough to make a profit on. And after your set term limit is up you get the boot and the next man/woman comes in.

The career politicians really need to get the boot!!!

I hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater but in the case of our gov't there are not going to be many babies in that bath water if they were all thrown out.
 
dohcdelsol93 said:
I would agree to a fair wage but it would have to be a fraction of what current positions get paid. I'd say yes to them covering your montly bills (house payment/rent/insurance/utilites) and then giving you a little spending money for food/vacations/basic items.
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I shouldn't have said 'fair.' I should have said "comparable to the private sector." I do NOT want someone who is barely scraping by to hold a position where they can extend their authority (and pissy attitude because they don't make squat) onto me. What about an appointed position such as a judge? If a comparable lawyer in the private sector makes $100k then who worth their salt would take a judge's position at $30k? Who would take a state senator or representative's position for 8 years not making but a little to spend on money and not putting one penny into the bank for savings/profit over 8 years time? These are not city/county councilperson positions that are part time - we are talking near to full time.

dohcdelsol93 said:
I hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater but in the case of our gov't there are not going to be many babies in that bath water if they were all thrown out.
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I think you and I have some pretty consistent views on government - and also believe more need to be tossed out than kept - but - I do not want to toss everyone out. I'm game for implementing term limits now. If you have been in for more than 8 years then you get the boot the next time an election for your seat/position comes up.
 
eventhough said:
I shouldn't have said 'fair.' I should have said "comparable to the private sector." I do NOT want someone who is barely scraping by to hold a position where they can extend their authority (and pissy attitude because they don't make squat) onto me. What about an appointed position such as a judge? If a comparable lawyer in the private sector makes $100k then who worth their salt would take a judge's position at $30k? Who would take a state senator or representative's position for 8 years not making but a little to spend on money and not putting one penny into the bank for savings/profit over 8 years time? These are not city/county councilperson positions that are part time - we are talking near to full time.



I think you and I have some pretty consistent views on government - and also believe more need to be tossed out than kept - but - I do not want to toss everyone out. I'm game for implementing term limits now. If you have been in for more than 8 years then you get the boot the next time an election for your seat/position comes up.
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your missing my main point...if i had things my way you wouldn't be a judge/mayor/senator because you ran for the position...you'd be there because you were selected just as someone would be selected to do jury duty.

If you do a crappy job your tossed by majority vote. If you do your job your in for your term. There should be no career politicians, there would be a plant worker in the seat for 2 years and maybe the next 2 years a nurse or doctor or ditch digger.

And the person can't be "power hungry" because once his seat time is served he's gone....he can't accept any favors/money from special interest groups/private parties. Serving as a public official is a duty to your country, not a way to make money. The gov't should take care of your exisiting bills/exspenses/needs while you are in office and give you a modest allowance to get bye. That is all. Once your term is up you go back to your job as usuall just as if you were in the armed forces and deployed.
 
Can't work for judges because it will be based on opinion vs. law. I do like the idea/concept for just about every other role. I support terms for sure.
 
I came to this party way late...

I've got a lot to say but don't really feel like it. Either way you go on any issue, we've got it good campaired to the rest. I complain and/or suggest from time to time but I still obey whether I like it or not. My dad's really pissed 'cause I'm not voting for him for school board on his second term.
 
ClemsonCruiser said:
I was wondering when you'd show up jay you seem to have a better grasp of such things then most, weren't you a history major :beer:
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Yes, I was indeed a History major, have a nice shiny diploma on my wall that attests to the fact. I am, however not a poli-sci major which would allow me to weigh in more into the fray. I can say this however, Mark Twain once said "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme" with that said, as a student of History, I can see similarities between the power and structure of the current United States, and say the Roman Empire. It bothers me to know that such power can and has fallen in the past, plunging the world into a dark age.
 
99UZJay said:
Yes, . I am, however not a poli-sci major
If you are alive and have eyes to see, ears to hear and a brain to think then you are a student of pol science. And a history major has unique insight into the possibilities of repeating past mistakes

I can see similarities between the power and structure of the current United States, and say the Roman Empire. It bothers me to know that such power can and has fallen in the past, plunging the world into a dark age.
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And I fear that is about to happen again. nuff said. I also fear that the corellation to hitler is closer to home than I like.
 
IndianDoc said:
And I fear that is about to happen again. nuff said. I also fear that the corellation to hitler is closer to home than I like.
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I have a hard time seeing another Hitler, if you go back and look at how he came to power, there isn't enough blind patriotism for any one to follow that path. He was able to do what he did due to the after effects of WWI and the complete desolation of the German socio-economic system, also using essences of counter insurgency ie. burning down the Reichstag and blaming it on Jewish extremists. Any way, I don't see us rowing down that river...
 
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