That's the one I think low mount will help a bit with engine bay heat, also will not cook accelerator cables.
Builds Turbo 1FZFE FZJ80 Build
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That's the one I think low mount will help a bit with engine bay heat, also will not cook accelerator cables.
alia176
SILVER Star
Didn't Landtank come up with some sort of spectacular manifold that you can use?
It looks like TurboGlide offers a complete turbo solution. Is this a commonly purchased/installed item in OZ?
I got no interest in buying one, looking forward to making my own. Mainly wanted ot see what they are worth out of curiosity. Yeah Landtank has been making one for years now, never seen one run on a 1fz though. Think his turbo project is on the very very long term schedule.
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- #184
You're better off using stock manifolds than a log manifold. Those log manifolds flow very poorly.
Not too worried about maximum flow/power. Im more worried about keeping the turbo bottom mount and the heat generator (manifold surface area) to a minimum. Im not woried about the few HP im leaving on the table running a log over a factory manifold with Y adapter. My stock turbo toyotas had what i would classify as log style manifolds (1jz, 2jz and 3sg). Granted they did not have "T"'s in them.
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- #186
I don't see the point personally. Why downgrade when you already have such nice factory manifolds?
This really has nothing to do with this thread but I was up at EMS Powered for their dyno day today and I am a little pissed off I went....
Now I totally want to give up the idea of a turbo'd 80 and build a really badass car! Ha! Some cool cars showed up while I was there. A couple of turbo'd M3, still tuning but putting down 600hp, and there is a big power Supra with a huge turbo and nitrous sitting in the corner with power goals of 1300hp.
Cool stuff and a great shop if you're a gear head.
Now I totally want to give up the idea of a turbo'd 80 and build a really badass car! Ha! Some cool cars showed up while I was there. A couple of turbo'd M3, still tuning but putting down 600hp, and there is a big power Supra with a huge turbo and nitrous sitting in the corner with power goals of 1300hp.
Cool stuff and a great shop if you're a gear head.
Agreed, the 1fz factory manifolds are great. I personally do not want a top mounted turbo so that kid of eliminates them as a possibility. If i did not care then yes i would be using the factory manifolds with a simple y pipe. I have a York OBA system and would like to retain it if at all possible, everyone has there own needs so my sinario and turbo system will be diffrent than others.
Im in no way trying to convice people my way is right and using te factory ones are wrong. For 99% of peopel goin turbo the y pipe on the factory manifolds is all they need. It will also make a bit more power at any given pressure.
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- #189
I started another thread for all ECU and Transmission tuning related information since it's not strictly turbo related, but useful info for every 1FZFE owner that wants to tune their truck,
here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/641870-tuning-1fzfe-powered-80-series.html
here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/641870-tuning-1fzfe-powered-80-series.html
Parts to motor are all complete and it's going back together. Before it is shipped back to Baktash the timing chain will go on, but that will have to wait until the crankshaft timing gear gets back from cryogenic treatment. This picture shows the timing gear post shot peening next to the original timing gear that was found during tear down to have 3 teeth missing. Since I have heard of others finding the same problem I decided to do whatever I could to make the gear stronger. The metallurgist I spoke with advised that the most strength to be gained in this application would be from shot peening. He also advised that cryo treating may or may not help depending on the steel, but finding out whether or not cryo treatment would help would have cost about 300 times what it cost to actually cryo the gear. He did say that it could only help and that there wouldn't be any negative effects.
Well only negative effect would be accelerated wear, but you wouldn't see breaks like that you would just see "shark tooth" teeth.
The way it was explained to me was that shot peening would reduce surface tension which would reduce or eliminate cracks from starting. Cryo treatment would make it stronger throughout.
Why do you say that there would be accelerated wear from being cryo'd?
I've searched for negative opinions on shot peening and cryo treatment and haven't been able to find anything discouraging. The article linked below is part and parcel of what I have found. But please do explain if you believe I should skip cryo treatment. The metalurgist that advised me on shot peening and cryo treatment is Dr Gopalakrishnan of Superior Shot Peening, Inc. htttp://www.superiorshotpeening.com/about-principals-metallurgist.htm .
http://www.gearsolutions.com/article/detail/5937/cryogenic-treatment--of-gears
The purpose of cryogenic treatment is to transform retained austenite and raise the hardness of the as-quenched structure. In addition, better dimensional stability is often achieved. This is especially important for progressive dies, where cumulative tolerances are critical. Subzero treatments have as their ultimate goal an increase in wear resistance, improved bending fatigue life, and minimizing residual stress. Stress is the enemy of steel, if it’s not imparted in a uniform manner. Stress boundary areas are susceptible to micro-cracking, which leads to fatigue and eventual failure. Residual stresses exist in parts from the original steel forming or forging operations, and additionally as a result of the many different machining operations to finish the part. They create a complex invisible random pattern in the steel. Residual stresses are uneven and located variously throughout the structure. Austenite (a soft form of iron) is a solid solution of carbon and iron that is formed during the quenching phase of metal production. Austenite is weak and undesirable because it contains few molecular interfaces to help hold the metal together. When metal is cryogenically treated, the austenite structure is transformed slowly into a highly organized grain structure called martensite, a body-centered tetragonal crystal structure. Martensite is a finer and harder material that brings high wear resistance that is very desirable in carbon steels. There may be as much as 40 percent residual austenite in heat-treat ferrous metals. That percentage can be lowered to as little as 1 percent in some cases. Martensite is also formed during the quenching phase. There is always a certain amount of martensite present, but prior to cryo the ratio of strong martensite to weak austenite is less than favorable. This untransformed austenite is brittle and lacks dimensional stability, which allows the metal to break more easily under loads. To eliminate austenite, the quenching temperature has to be lowered. At very low temperatures austenite is unstable and readily becomes martensite. The result is a much-improved part or tool with no cracking, warping, or any other cryogenically imposed defect. Improvement in durability is around 100 percent. The typical increase in strength is 30-50 percent. Another advantage of cryo is the increase in efficiency to dissipate heat. Gears, engines, transmissions, and disc brakes run cooler.
http://www.gearsolutions.com/article/detail/5937/cryogenic-treatment--of-gears
The purpose of cryogenic treatment is to transform retained austenite and raise the hardness of the as-quenched structure. In addition, better dimensional stability is often achieved. This is especially important for progressive dies, where cumulative tolerances are critical. Subzero treatments have as their ultimate goal an increase in wear resistance, improved bending fatigue life, and minimizing residual stress. Stress is the enemy of steel, if it’s not imparted in a uniform manner. Stress boundary areas are susceptible to micro-cracking, which leads to fatigue and eventual failure. Residual stresses exist in parts from the original steel forming or forging operations, and additionally as a result of the many different machining operations to finish the part. They create a complex invisible random pattern in the steel. Residual stresses are uneven and located variously throughout the structure. Austenite (a soft form of iron) is a solid solution of carbon and iron that is formed during the quenching phase of metal production. Austenite is weak and undesirable because it contains few molecular interfaces to help hold the metal together. When metal is cryogenically treated, the austenite structure is transformed slowly into a highly organized grain structure called martensite, a body-centered tetragonal crystal structure. Martensite is a finer and harder material that brings high wear resistance that is very desirable in carbon steels. There may be as much as 40 percent residual austenite in heat-treat ferrous metals. That percentage can be lowered to as little as 1 percent in some cases. Martensite is also formed during the quenching phase. There is always a certain amount of martensite present, but prior to cryo the ratio of strong martensite to weak austenite is less than favorable. This untransformed austenite is brittle and lacks dimensional stability, which allows the metal to break more easily under loads. To eliminate austenite, the quenching temperature has to be lowered. At very low temperatures austenite is unstable and readily becomes martensite. The result is a much-improved part or tool with no cracking, warping, or any other cryogenically imposed defect. Improvement in durability is around 100 percent. The typical increase in strength is 30-50 percent. Another advantage of cryo is the increase in efficiency to dissipate heat. Gears, engines, transmissions, and disc brakes run cooler.
I agree with this part that shot peening is more important than cryo'ing. Shoot peening will relieve the micro stress fractures and risers on the teeth of the gear.
The point of cryo'ing like you pointed out in your link is to convert austenite to martensite, the martensite molecule is about 4 times as large as the austenite molecule. This is an important conversion in low quality steel, but not as important in tool steel since the austenite concentration isn't as high, probably why he recommended you have it tested to see if it would be of benefit. The accelerated wear was just a guess based on the fact that the part was probably already heat treated, and the cryo'ing would only increase the hardness which can lead to chips in the the teeth.
The point of cryo'ing like you pointed out in your link is to convert austenite to martensite, the martensite molecule is about 4 times as large as the austenite molecule. This is an important conversion in low quality steel, but not as important in tool steel since the austenite concentration isn't as high, probably why he recommended you have it tested to see if it would be of benefit. The accelerated wear was just a guess based on the fact that the part was probably already heat treated, and the cryo'ing would only increase the hardness which can lead to chips in the the teeth.
He mentioned testing it to see if it could benefit, but when I pointed out that it would cost about $5 to freeze it along with my cast iron manifolds he said to go for it since it wouldn't hurt anything even if there were no gains. He didn't mention the possibility of increased wear. He had both gears so I assume he knows that they are already quality steel.
Do you really think there is risk in cryo treatment even with a post temper to 350 degrees? I just assume not take the chance and call it good vs taking any risk at all, but then again the Dr said cryo treatment wouldn't have any negative impact. Would you be able to give me a link that discusses the risk of cryo treatment post heat treating?
I really don't want to risk teeth breaking off so I want to do as much as possible to prevent. From what I have read it sounds like I still stand to gain some strength from cryo treatment even though the gear is steel.
I did more research and spoke with Rick Diekman at Controlled Thermal Processing. He's a Metalurgist who has been doing cryo treatment for 20 years. He confirmed what Dr Gopal told me except that he said cryo processing will help, with the question being how much will it help? It won't hurt. He said that it does not make the metal harder by any significant amount, but that it does relieve significant internal stress that remains after intial heat treament, in nearly all steel, by essentially completing the quenching process. Even in high quality steel significant benefit is typical. He confirmed that shot peening was a good move to protect against ongoing surface tension, but he also said that cryo treatment will augment the strength of the gear by relieving nearly all internal stress throughout by different mechanisms. He said that they frequently treat gears used in mining operations that had previously lost teeth during operation. After shot peening and cryo treatment the gears no longer break.
I sent the gear off today with the manifolds for cryo treatment.
If anyone wishes to read up more on cryo treament this is a very good article about cryo theory on Rick Diekman's website.
I sent the gear off today with the manifolds for cryo treatment.
If anyone wishes to read up more on cryo treament this is a very good article about cryo theory on Rick Diekman's website.
No offense but both of your sources make money off of offering the service....
Did he provide you with any rockwell data for cryo treated steel? Depending on the steel low quality steels with higher concentrations of austenite that can be converted to martensite will show a large change in rockwell hardness. Steels of higher quality won't show a big change.
Here is a quick paper on the Ductle to Brittleness Transition.
https://www.forging.org/system/files/field_document/EffectofIntermediate.pdf
I don't think it is a huge concern in this particular application and I think it will be fine, but to say that the cryo process doesn't increase the rockwell hardness isn't true.
Did he provide you with any rockwell data for cryo treated steel? Depending on the steel low quality steels with higher concentrations of austenite that can be converted to martensite will show a large change in rockwell hardness. Steels of higher quality won't show a big change.
Here is a quick paper on the Ductle to Brittleness Transition.
https://www.forging.org/system/files/field_document/EffectofIntermediate.pdf
I don't think it is a huge concern in this particular application and I think it will be fine, but to say that the cryo process doesn't increase the rockwell hardness isn't true.
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Acutally no, Dr Gopal doesn't perform cryo processing, but he recommended it for my application. The other guy isn't making but $5 off of my gear and his credentials are such that I don't see how he has anything to gain by overselling what cryo treament can accomplish.
Rick mentioned that there would be a slight increase in hardness for my application and I think he mention a Rockwell of 1 or .1. Since I am only vaguely familiar with what the Rockwell hardness scale is it didn't mean anything to me so I can't remember exactly what he said apart from it being an insignificant increase in hardness. I don't think I ever said there was no increase in hardness, but that it was an insignificant increase. What stood out to me was the allieviation of internal stress almost entirely as well as his comparision to the mining gears.
I skimmed the article you linked and it is very technical. It sounds like the purpose of the paper is to determine how to best cryo process that particular alloy rather than whether it should be cryo treated. I see the same positives I have read about occuring throughout the paper; but I also read where hardness was increased more (during increasingly longer hold times at cryo temps), it was reversible with heat after the positive effects of cryo treatment were achieved.
I found this on wiki.answer.com (they aren't selling anything
:Best Answer
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Explian_about_cryogenic_hardening&action=edit
Cryogenic hardening is often referred to cryogenic treatment and cryogenic processing. Using the term "hardening" is not correct. Cryogenic treatment does not increase the hardness of metals (I.E. rockwell hardness).
Rather it changes metals on the molecular level so that they perform better. Cryogenic treatment is used for a variety of reasons including improving dimensional stability, stress relieving, increasing wear resistance, and eliminating walk and creep.
A typical cryogenic treatment lasts for several days. Metal and steel parts will be put in a cryogenic processor at room temperature. The temperature will slowly be taken down to -300F below. Then it will hold there for 12 to 24 hours depending on the company doing the treatment. After that, the processor will have the temperature raised back to room temperature very slowly. Finally, the parts will be post-tempered to finalize the cryogenic treatment.
Cryogenic treatment re-aligns the micro-structure of the metal to improve its structural stability. Retained austenite will be converted to martensite which allows for a tougher piece of metal. The eta-carbides in the metal will become precipitated which allows for a much higher degree of wear resistance.
fair enough, good luck with the sprocket 
Ha, ha. Yeah, I just want to get my truck back. I had a mind to skip the cryo treatment and hand it over to Kotzur so we can get it buttoned up. But alas, my cooler head prevailed and I decided to wait the extra 6-7 business days for the good measure.fair enough, good luck with the sprocket
