Builds The "Red Rocket" Troopy (8 Viewers)

[cruisermatt]

This is why I use internal release bearings on everything now… tons of travel, and don’t require much MC bore.
Might be worth looking into.

 

[theglobb]

Engine pulled again, we are really getting into the groove of in and out and in and out and in and out. Has to be 20+ times of this engine going in and out.

Bearing retainer is off, my general gameplan is below in video form. I'll grind the back of the throwout bearing down some and that taper off of the bearing retainer. That should provide enough clearance so the clutch wont slip and I'll be able to get in and out of gear.

Maybe... I'll be able to keep the Toyota master this way. If not then I'll just have to fix it the 100% proper way.

This is why I use internal release bearings on everything now… tons of travel, and don’t require much MC bore.
Might be worth looking into.

I had never even heard of these until you just mentioned it... I'll definitely keep them in mind from now on. Thanks

 

[robmobile73]

Engine pulled again, we are really getting into the groove of in and out and in and out and in and out. Has to be 20+ times of this engine going in and out.

View attachment 3357270

Bearing retainer is off, my general gameplan is below in video form. I'll grind the back of the throwout bearing down some and that taper off of the bearing retainer. That should provide enough clearance so the clutch wont slip and I'll be able to get in and out of gear.
View attachment 3357269


Maybe... I'll be able to keep the Toyota master this way. If not then I'll just have to fix it the 100% proper way.

View attachment 3357268


I had never even heard of these until you just mentioned it... I'll definitely keep them in mind from now on. Thanks

If machining it back further is an issue due to internal diameter being too large it could be further modified by cutting off at correct distance, and welding on a new piece of pipe turned to the proper OD for a bearing support.. If you are going to go to a machine shop for this there are ways of making it work and being able to weld and have it all centered...............forgive me If I'm confused here, but I'm really not sure why the throwout bearing needs that "bearing guide/snout" . Not sure why a throwout bearing can't ride/slide back and forth on the transmission input shaft.

On work in general: If you work too many hours in a day it causes problems. IE-After 10 hours straight working trying to get something finished I sometimes start cutting corners and am not doing my best work. After 18 - 20 hours straight I can't really stay on task. A good nights sleep will often bring the solution to your problem in the form of a new Idea or method in the morning. If you learn this in your 20's instead of your 40's it will help you out alot.

 

[Gun Runner 5]

And then you’ll reach an age like me where after 10-15 minutes you can‘t remember what the task was in the first place.

 

[BarnFab]

I would not machine that square if I was you as you will probably find it breaks off.

I would measure the ID and depth of the retainer to the step and then work out where it is relative to the chamfer and see what meat you have to play with. You don't need much for alignment of the TO bearing when it is engaged / released etc but its weak point is on transition as the pressure plate fingers do not engage evenly so there is a time during engagement where there is significant side load. At this time, you will have significant shear for on that transition so keep a radius on it.

Machining them down is nothing new so at least you know that approach will work if you get tolerances right .

 

[LDowney]

My apology in advance for possibly being the idiot in the peanut gallery ...

Your current diagnosis is your master cylinder is not pushing enough brake fluid to the clutch slave to get the required to stoke (from the slave to the clutch). To resolve this you have been researching alternate clutch master cylinders that would increase the volume of brake fluid moved in a stroke.

What if you changed your optics to refocus on the slave?

For example, what if you sleeved your slave to reduce the volume?
i.e., modify the slave volume to match that of the clutch master.

You should be able to calculate the volume with the info that you have.
[bore area of the slave multiplied by the stroke should yield the volume that the existing master can move; identify the stroke required to properly function the clutch. With this divide the volume that the master can move by the required stroke (recommend adding ~1/2 inch as a buffer for tolerances and as the cutch disk wears) this will yield the nominal bore that the slave needs to have inserted to match to the master cylinder performance. Then it is just a matter of getting a sleeve machined to a standard size and get a plunger that will seal with this bore ... and re-assemble]

I would expect that this may negatively impact working pressures (increase them) which might lead a worn master cylinder to start leaking and increased pedal pressures.

Does your clutch master have a booster? You are young, so building strength might come easy.

Just thoughts on an alternative perspective on the solution space. The increase in working pressure might be non-viable. You should also be able to estimate it (first thought is original bore dia / sleeved bore dia ~ % increase in fluid pressure and pedal force)

Good luck

 

[RHINO]

there are many variables that affect an outcome, i was able to keep the master AND slave when i put the 4BD1T into my FJ55, but i didnt use the Isuzu bellhousing as you are doing.

keep at it, you'll get it dialed in and working.

 

[BarnFab]

I could be miss reading what he has going here BUT I was of the understanding is he getting slippage on the clutch when the pedal is not depressed. If that is the access coupled with his statement that adding washers to the bell housing to in effect space the TO bearing neutral position back tells me that the Slave / MC has no impact as the TO bearing is not disengaging fulling from the pressure plate.

Most stock style finger pressure plate are pretty close to each other in relation to the amount of movement they need on the figures to disengage from the clutch if we are talking about Push style, not pull style pressure plates ( as in this case)

If this is all correct, then I would just add a spacer ring between the bell housing and engine to adjust it not machine anything as machining it runs the chance of not fixing the issue as your slave travel is fixed unless you are saying than the bell housing setup you have it not the correct placement relative to the snout depth.

Anyway, I am sure you will get it sorted you have gotten this far just make sure you think through what the impact is on each and every component before you machine it and let the TO swing further back,

 

[robmobile73]

I could be miss reading what he has going here BUT I was of the understanding is he getting slippage on the clutch when the pedal is not depressed. If that is the access coupled with his statement that adding washers to the bell housing to in effect space the TO bearing neutral position back tells me that the Slave / MC has no impact as the TO bearing is not disengaging fulling from the pressure plate.

Most stock style finger pressure plate are pretty close to each other in relation to the amount of movement they need on the figures to disengage from the clutch if we are talking about Push style, not pull style pressure plates ( as in this case)

If this is all correct, then I would just add a spacer ring between the bell housing and engine to adjust it not machine anything as machining it runs the chance of not fixing the issue as your slave travel is fixed unless you are saying than the bell housing setup you have it not the correct placement relative to the snout depth.

Anyway, I am sure you will get it sorted you have gotten this far just make sure you think through what the impact is on each and every component before you machine it and let the TO swing further back,

On the spacer ring: Washers can get the distance for experimentation to see if it works. Then make your spacer the same thickness. Washers in permanent solution theoretically will concentrate clamping stress in vicinity of the washer on the bellhousing which maybe could possibly cause cracks or breakage at some point (This type of emperical research/engineering is fine for something you don't mind tearing back into, or when everything is temporary). If you make your washers out of strips of bar stock it can spread out the load. If you weld your strips together after it's bolted in place then you have a ugly but fairly strong spacer. Plexiglass sharpie marker jigsaw and drill can make a neater spacer pattern to transfer to plate. If you decide to use a jigsaw to cut neat curves and shapes in aluminum plate with a metal cutting blade you will need to use the saw on a slow speed setting. (I just did this last month). If you run the saw on a high setting the blade will get hot enough to melt the aluminum and gum up/ruin the blade with molten aluminum within perhaps 6 inches..........The metal recycling center near me usually has alumium highway signs that have been damaged and sold in for scrap, they are about 1/8" thick. Perhaps good for making spacers, maybe you have a place like this near you.............Of course if you value your time you could just have a machine shop make you a spacer, if you have one that will do it right away.

 

[theglobb]

Ok an update, due to everyone's advice on machining and all I decided against machining the bearing retainer that bolts to the transmission, it also helps that my friend's lathe had no way to machine it since it is such an odd shape. So I machined the chunk of metal that the throughout bearing is pressed onto to about half the thickness it was (about 2 washers worth) We also have another full cut out adapter plate that is about another washer thick that we used for testing if the plates went on before we cut 1/2in thick plates for no reason. 3 washers (ish) of room should be enough to let the pressure plate fully engage the clutch and not let it slip.

I mightttt have been able to get away with using the Toyota MC but for the long run I went ahead and upsized to a different MC. It's the #1 best selling master cylinder on amazon and had 1-day free shipping... I'm tired of waiting for stuff. While I was at his place went ahead and used his plasma cutter to cut the big hole for the master cylinder adapter plate

and here is the finished adapter plate for the MC.

Ignore the fact it has an extra set of holes, I drilled them too big to tap haha, just wasn't thinking. It's a wilwood and for $50 with free shipping... why not. Hopefully this will solve my issue of being able to move the slave enough to get into gears.

coupled with his statement that adding washers to the bell housing to in effect space the TO bearing neutral position back tells me that the Slave / MC has no impact as the TO bearing is not disengaging fulling from the pressure plate.

Was having a hard time to explain everything well on writing. It was 2 issues at once. One being the fact that the throughout bearing was hitting my transmission before it had fully disengaged from the pressure plate, thus causing it to slip. When I moved everything forward with the washers, then it was just enough for my slave to not move the pressure plate enough to get it into a gear, but fixed my clutch slippage issues. an endless circle jerk.

On the spacer ring: Washers can get the distance for experimentation to see if it works. Then make your spacer the same thickness. Washers in permanent solution theoretically will concentrate clamping stress in vicinity of the washer on the bellhousing which maybe could possibly cause cracks or breakage at some point (This type of emperical research/engineering is fine for something you don't mind tearing back into, or when everything is temporary). If you make your washers out of strips of bar stock it can spread out the load. If you weld your strips together after it's bolted in place then you have a ugly but fairly strong spacer. Plexiglass sharpie marker jigsaw and drill can make a neater spacer pattern to transfer to plate. If you decide to use a jigsaw to cut neat curves and shapes in aluminum plate with a metal cutting blade you will need to use the saw on a slow speed setting. (I just did this last month). If you run the saw on a high setting the blade will get hot enough to melt the aluminum and gum up/ruin the blade with molten aluminum within perhaps 6 inches..........The metal recycling center near me usually has alumium highway signs that have been damaged and sold in for scrap, they are about 1/8" thick. Perhaps good for making spacers, maybe you have a place like this near you.............Of course if you value your time you could just have a machine shop make you a spacer, if you have one that will do it right away.

Thanks for all the useful shadetree mechanic fixes and advice you always have. If I end up making another small adapter plate/spacer I'll most likely just do a rough version with my buddies plasma cutter and clean it up from there. The washers are a very temporary thing, just to prove my dad's theory of what was happening on the inside of everything that we couldn't really see.


If for some reason all of this doesn't work, then I'll look into internal release bearings as @cruisermatt had mentioned previously

 

[bj70bc]

WOW, shoes and everything, you're taking this seriously !

 

[Felde]

WOW, shoes and everything, you're taking this seriously !

He is young and needs to keep his body unharmed. Wasn't there a comment on bree...

Seriously. Great work!
Fingers crossed it works out to the theory.
Cheers Ralf

 

[theglobb]

Y'all know how I mentioned I hate waiting? the brand new throughout bearing got delayed from arriving today to instead arriving on July 6th, and I had even paid for quicker shipping. The old one feels fine I'm tempted to slap it all back together with it. It takes me literally an hour and 30 minutes to take everything apart and have the engine out of the troopy... I'm even more tempted cause I'm starting full time at an auto repair shop on July 5th in place of my buddy who is going to Australia for 3 weeks, which will obviously take up a ton more time than I currently have.


Better news would be the clutch master is all bolted up, made another custom rod so the Toyota parts all thread onto the wilwood MC at the correct lengths and all, just waiting for a 1/8th npt - 10mm x 1.0 adapter fitting to actually connect to my clutch line.

And here is the spacer plate we already had laying around, about the thickness of 1 washer.

WOW, shoes and everything, you're taking this seriously !

mhmmmmh yes I love when molten metal burns through synthetic shoe material right to the feet lol

 

[jblueridge]

I’ve gotten delayed shipping many times recently. Better than a year ago but still annoying.
I even had a package from McMaster Carr that came late…things are really falling apart.

 

[theglobb]

Well after my throughout bearing did a tour across America (literally went all across the US) it arrived!!! Manufacturing defect its not center, like at all... But it still feels fine and there's no way I'm waiting another 10 days for a single bearing, so we threw it in and put everything back together. It's not the angle of the photo this is how it looks.

Put it all together and the clutch doesn't slip!!! drives great, that being for the 5 minutes I was driving around before this happened...


Whatever 8-year-old Chinese child who mixed my certain batch of chinesium grade metal for this rod did a HORRIBLE job. Seriously though... I would think more of a name like wilwood but apparently, everything is just becoming absolute s***. It's almost comical yet again

Well, that's the end of that, everything checks out and feels good. Definitely making progress! At this point its just stuff totally out of my control that is hindering me, FedEx taking 10 days to ship a 2 day package, crappy clutch rod bending like RUBBER, and who knows what will happen with the very NOT centered throughout bearing...

Regardless, I'm ecstatic that its moving under its own power.

On top of all the good news and bad news the last bit of good news is coolant temp! Didn't get above 175f degrees, even pulling at full throttle repetitively it didn't go above.

 

[bj70bc]

woot woot!

 

[FJBen]

Nice job!


Seems to pull a bit better than the 3B turbo huh?

 

[cruisermatt]

Are you positive you new master cylinder is on the same bore center line as the original? The Land Cruiser pedal ratio
(which is like 14:1) combined with your leg's power (easily 40-50 lbs force) can put quite the amount of force through there and if it's not perfectly straight the will bind up and bend. I've seen it happen before.
What is going on with the threads on it? They don't look good, did you re-thread it? If so that will also make it thinner and no help the situation...

Also, what throwout bearing are you using? I probably could have had an OEM one in your hand in two days.

 

[Roastchestnuts]

Well after my throughout bearing did a tour across America (literally went all across the US) it arrived!!! Manufacturing defect its not center, like at all... But it still feels fine and there's no way I'm waiting another 10 days for a single bearing, so we threw it in and put everything back together. It's not the angle of the photo this is how it looks.
View attachment 3365655

Put it all together and the clutch doesn't slip!!! drives great, that being for the 5 minutes I was driving around before this happened...


Whatever 8-year-old Chinese child who mixed my certain batch of chinesium grade metal for this rod did a HORRIBLE job. Seriously though... I would think more of a name like wilwood but apparently, everything is just becoming absolute s***. It's almost comical yet again
View attachment 3365658

Well, that's the end of that, everything checks out and feels good. Definitely making progress! At this point its just stuff totally out of my control that is hindering me, FedEx taking 10 days to ship a 2 day package, crappy clutch rod bending like RUBBER, and who knows what will happen with the very NOT centered throughout bearing...

Regardless, I'm ecstatic that its moving under its own power.

View attachment 3365656


On top of all the good news and bad news the last bit of good news is coolant temp! Didn't get above 175f degrees, even pulling at full throttle repetitively it didn't go above.View attachment 3365657

Gotta love how well some things are not built these days. I had a slave cylnder rod on my tacoma one time crack at the fork end.. it was one I got from one of the chain autoparts stores. It was strange all of a sudden it was hard to get into gear unless I really slammed the clutch down. Found out it was bending at the crack everytime. wish I had pictures but it was for sure some bad metallurgy.

 

[ceylonfj40nut]

Chinesium is a new metal that is not on the periodic table (nor should it ever). Supply chain has diluted the metal purity of today. Dangerous when it reaches into safety side of things.