Stranded 1991 FJ80 named Vera - transmission stopped working (1 Viewer)

[roostabunny]

The strainer in the A440F doesn't need to get replaced, only removed and cleaned. It is a fine mesh stainless steel filter. There is a gasket for the strainer, but the transmission pan does not use a gasket. It uses the orange Toyota FIPG.
There are 2 magnets in the bottom of the pan that will collect metal debris.

BTW, did you make certain that your transfer case shifter is fully engaged in H? You might want to check that first.

Check, T-case fully engaged. I'd looked at that, but doubted just now and double-checked.

Yes, sure thing - clean-and-reinstall for the mesh filter. Good info on the FIPG for the tranny pan.

Orange 00295-01281 Local Dealership has this in stock.
Filter gasket, I think need a 35339-36010. Local dealership can have that for me by Monday.

I've had Vera for three years (unknown mechanical history other than red/healthy ATF came out when I did the drain/fill) and I've never dropped the trans pan. So, I'm thinking that should happen regardless.

Drain, Drop pan & filter, clean magnets and filter, put in new filter gasket and re-install filter, seal and re-install trans pan, refill with 4qts, run for a few seconds, fill rest of way.

Is re-drain & re-fill with filter cleaning the first step? Should I also try to adjust the kick-down cable at the same time, or first, or after? I'm trying to learn the right way to troubleshoot this, but with the filter gasket not due till Monday, I'm also wondering about steps I can still take over the weekend.

Also, question about over filling - I feel like that's a mistake I'd feel right away. Could that take some months to cause a problem? Also I wonder if I'm just a dunce at using an AT dipstick. I wiped it off and it seemed like it came out wet along the whole length - I just didn't know what to make of it. Seems a dumb thing to ask about, but oh well.

 

[roostabunny]

220, 221, whatever it takes.

LOL

 

[Tools R Us]

...
No driveshaft spinning while slipping. The only movement from driveshafts seemed to be driven by the wheels, as I'm on a slight incline and rolled back a couple of inches while feathering the gas. From what I've read, this eliminates stripped drive flanges?

Park works. Feels normal, settles back and holds on my slightly inclined driveway. I hope that's a sign of something good...

That rules out drive train and transfer, park works, so the problem is upstream from there, the transmission.

...
Cable is that red-ferrule deal on the right. It seems to be connected to the throttle linkage correctly, but feels very loose to me at this end. I'm not sure if tight is "light tension", "firm" or "banjo" tightness. ...

It should have light tension, it is hooked to a spring loaded cam. Not tight, but enough to retract when pulled. Pull on it, should move a bit and stop, when released, retract on it's own. A few have broken, causing slippage, poor shifting, also with age they need to be adjusted, most often tightened.

 

[Eicca]

OK Tools & Summit Cruisers, sirs, test results are in.

No driveshaft spinning while slipping. The only movement from driveshafts seemed to be driven by the wheels, as I'm on a slight incline and rolled back a couple of inches while feathering the gas. From what I've read, this eliminates stripped drive flanges?

Park works. Feels normal, settles back and holds on my slightly inclined driveway. I hope that's a sign of something good.

As an aside, while idling in D, I could sense what felt like slipping in and out of gear via changing RPMs/Engine loading. Just a feeling, not actually sure what was causing the RPM changes.

I'm hoping everyone can see the picture below (lemme know if you can't, Google image linking is weird) -

This pic is right behind the throttle body between the intake and the firewall. I think the Transmission (AKA "Kickdown"?) Cable is that red-ferrule deal on the right. It seems to be connected to the throttle linkage correctly, but feels very loose to me at this end. I'm not sure if tight is "light tension", "firm" or "banjo" tightness.

That said, I've got an "Inspect Throttle Cable" procedure on AT-13 in the FSM, and I'm just making sure we're all talking about the same thing. Is the "Throttle cable" referenced in the AT section of the FSM the same thing as what's been referred to as the "transmission cable" and the "kickdown cable" on the forum? Like it's the "transmission cable that communicates throttle position", but the transmission Engineers didn't know or want to acknowledge that there are other throttle cables under that hood?

Thanks for the input!

https://goo.gl/photos/Cuk7eCUmfkwALNoU9

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That rules out drive train and transfer, park works, so the problem is upstream from there, the transmission.



It should have light tension, it is hooked to a spring loaded cam. Not tight, but enough to retract when pulled. Pull on it, should move a bit and stop, when released, retract on it's own. A few have broken, causing slippage, poor shifting, also with age they need to be adjusted, most often tightened.

Ditto on the cable. That little plastic bead looks way too close to the red boot. Use the adjuster nuts to back the cable housing away from the bead/linkage. Add some tension to it and see what happens. Those cables stretch out over time. FSM says the bead should be ~5mm away from the boot but mine doesn't feel right unless it's more like 10mm away.

Subscribed for another mystery story.

 

[Lumpskie]

This could also be your issue. The A440F does NOT like to be overfilled and you will loose drive when the fluid heats. The transmission fluid should read EXACTLY at the upper HOT mark when the engine/transmission are at normal operating temperature with the engine running.
If it is reading high on the stick, then it is overfilled.

You're not causing damage by overfilling, but the valves in the valve body are not operating properly. This tends to happen after a long drive with an overfilled transmission.

Also, question about over filling - I feel like that's a mistake I'd feel right away. Could that take some months to cause a problem? Also I wonder if I'm just a dunce at using an AT dipstick. I wiped it off and it seemed like it came out wet along the whole length - I just didn't know what to make of it. Seems a dumb thing to ask about, but oh well.

Like @jonheld says, there should be a cold and hot mark on the dipstick. You want to be sure that you are filled exactly to the hot mark only when the transmission is actually hot. If you fill to the hot mark (or anything over the cold mark) when cold, as the transmission heats the fluid, your fluid level will rise and you'll end up overfull. That's how you could end up not feeling the issue right away and that's how a long hill could lead specifically to your issue. I don't know the A440f at all but, just reading the symptoms, I think it would be worth double checking your fluid level both cold and hot.

 

[jonheld]

A misadjusted/broken kick-down cable will cause bad shifts and slips, but not total loss of drive.
I agree that it should be set at FSM specification first, but I doubt this is the issue.

Always check transmission fluid with the engine running. You will get a false high reading if the engine is not running.

When you drop the pan, make certain you keep a drip pan under the unit as it will continue to drip fluid for a day or 2. The fluid in the pan is only about 1/3 of the fluid in the system.
You already mentioned refill with 4qts then fire the engine for a few seconds and add the rest. It will make an awful mess if you attempt to add more without allowing the engine to pump it out of the pan.

 

[roostabunny]

A misadjusted/broken kick-down cable will cause bad shifts and slips, but not total loss of drive.
I agree that it should be set at FSM specification first, but I doubt this is the issue.

OK, got the cable adjusted, just to check that box.

Here's the spec -
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.5mm isn't much, so, I actually ended up aiming for the upper end of the scale of about 1.5mm.

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I was looking for the second cable stop on the cable, then I realized the FSM pic was just representing the 32-34mm stopper position at WOT. didn't take a pic, but I checked it and it looked pretty good.

I also looked at the shift linkages and didn't notice anything that looked out of whack.

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I plan on draining ATF and then dropping the pan over the weekend. Hopefully the filter gasket will be in by Monday.

Side note - to my eye, this looks like it's been dropped at least once and replaced with a non-orange material, I'm guessing it's just black RTV.

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[Eicca]

Good start. Like I mentioned, those cables will stretch over time so the bead may need to be further from the red boot than the manual says. I adjusted mine by feel, moving the bead out until it wouldn't upshift normally, then backing it off a few mm.

 

[Tools R Us]

... Hopefully the filter gasket will be in by Monday. ...

Don't need and I would not use a gasket. On clean surfaces, properly done, Permatex Grey will seal better and last longer than a gasket.

 

[jonheld]

Don't need and I would not use a gasket. On clean surfaces, properly done, Permatex Grey will seal better and last longer than a gasket.

The problem with that is the constant dripping. It's going to be difficult to keep the surface of the valve body free from fluid unless you let it drain for at least a day. Mine went for 2 full days before it stopped.

 

[Tools R Us]

Oops, I was referencing the pan. Don't see what a novice is going to find by removing the valve body?

 

[roostabunny]

Oops, I was referencing the pan. Don't see what a novice is going to find by removing the valve body?

Not the valve body, I'm just planning to remove & clean the filter. That's the gasket I was talking about.

I don't want to speak for him, but I'm wondering if Jon Held's dripping comment was because the filter assembly mates to the bottom of the valve body, and it might have sounded like you were recommending grey Permatex for that gasket?

So, like you said, I'm planning to use gasket goop for the transmission pan. That's what you're recommending grey Permatex for? (this variety of Ultra grey stuff? - Amazon.com: Permatex 82194 Ultra Grey Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker, 3.5 oz.: Automotive ). Cause that'd be way cheaper than the $25 tube of Toyota orange FPIG, especially when I'm not sure this exercise is going to fix the problem.

Progress report - I've drained and letting the drain drip for a bit, then planning to remove the armor and pan and filter if I can figure it out. I've had a couple of foil turkey pans hanging around the garage for a while, will leave one of those to catch the valve body drips.

The fluid is not catastrophic-looking. Not as bright as I'd like given a few months-old drain & fill, but still red and translucent and not burnt in an obvious way. I'm googling for ways to evaluate it - maybe drip on some white paper next to some fresh (I have a bit left in the original bottle) or something?

 

[Eicca]

Fluid itself sounds fine. When I changed the fluid out in my Lexus there was barely any hint of red left. Stupid previous owners. Still works fine, thank goodness, but I'll be swapping in a 6-speed manual anyway.

 

[Tools R Us]

... I'm just planning to remove & clean the filter. ...

I just clean them from the bottom, without removing. Always use new solvent on them, not from a solvent tank that has been used, can introduce other debris. The solvent used in the trans needs to be fast evaporating and not leave residue, like brake cleaner.

... So, like you said, I'm planning to use gasket goop for the transmission pan. That's what you're recommending grey Permatex for? (this variety of Ultra grey stuff? - Amazon.com: Permatex 82194 Ultra Grey Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker, 3.5 oz.: Automotive ). Cause that'd be way cheaper than the $25 tube of Toyota orange FPIG, especially when I'm not sure this exercise is going to fix the problem. ...

That is what I use, works as well or better than the stealer stuff. Surfaces need to be clean, this can be a bit of a challenge with the runny ATF, more brake cleaner.

...
The fluid is not catastrophic-looking. Not as bright as I'd like given a few months-old drain & fill, but still red and translucent and not burnt in an obvious way. I'm googling for ways to evaluate it - maybe drip on some white paper next to some fresh (I have a bit left in the original bottle) or something?

A drain and fill only changes ~1/3 of the fluid, so not all of the fluid is new.

 

[roostabunny]

Yeah, I don't think the fluid looks too bad. Kind of a yellowish tinge, but I think in an OK range. Pic's just OK - really hard to photograph a drip/stain, lol.

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Just a quick pic of the modified 24mm socket I used for driveline lube changes - ground flat to better grip the thinner diff drains. Works great on the transmission, too. I bought a 1/2" drive so it'd fit on my 24" breaker bar, so I just use a 3/8 adapter on the ratchet for non-stuck situations.

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Then rear mounts for pan armor - remove these first since the tabs hold it in place while you remove the fronts (below). 12mm socket.View media item 54167
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I think the transmission dipstick tube separates 8-10 inches above the pan where there's a bulge in the tube. Is it just a slip fit?

Will a wobble socket will get all the pan bolts without removing the cross member?

EDIT: Sorry jumped the gun a bit, I think I got these answers (yes and yes) from this thhread - A440F pan drop/fluid amount

I see an SST in the FSM for cutting the pan seal, I'm thinking it's essentially a light, angled pry bar to wedge in there and gently pry the pan loose?

 

[roostabunny]

I just clean them from the bottom, without removing. Always use new solvent on them, not from a solvent tank that has been used, can introduce other debris. The solvent used in the trans needs to be fast evaporating and not leave residue, like brake cleaner.

Well, brake cleaner, I got. Part of me wants to remove it just to get a look at whats in it before I clean. When cleaning it in place, is there a good way direct the flow and to catch what comes out when you're spraying the cleaner?

That is what I use, works as well or better than the stealer stuff. Surfaces need to be clean, this can be a bit of a challenge with the runny ATF, more brake cleaner.

I can make this work.

A drain and fill only changes ~1/3 of the fluid, so not all of the fluid is new.

Understood, so I really don't have an accurate picture of how old the fluid is overall. Either way, seems there's no reason to panic over the condition of the fluid at this point, as it doesn't point to severe damage.

Since adjusting kick-down cable to FSM spec didn't have any noticeable effect, prime suspects are still clogged filter or incorrect fill level. And I'm still open to further adjustment of the kick-down cable.

 

[roostabunny]

I'm not calling a smoking gun yet - but this filter looks pretty fuzzy.

For getting the pan off the 3/8 ratchets were fussy, but the 1/4 reached easily.

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The interior of the pan with magnets.
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Close on one magnet with metal goo.
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Turkey pan to keep from basting the driveway with ATF
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Filter is tricksey with three different type bolts. Drew a diagram for re-install.

Edit - forgot to mention three things...
1.) it's 8mm and 10mm bolts holding the filter
2.) it slides right out no problem once the bolts are out - no need to remove that oil tube
3.) about 3 cups of ATF dumped out when I release the last bolt and started sliding it out, which, to me, seemed to indicate that the fluid was being held there by the clogged filter itself.

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Filter fuzz from outside and through hole held up to light - hopefully this is as clogged as it looks to me and cleaning will set me straight.
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[roostabunny]

Got a lot of gunk out with a can of brake cleaner. Gotta run to a family event, but will post pics later.

 

[jonheld]

That filter looks pretty nasty, and that can't be a good thing. Possibly clutch particulates as the magnets looked relatively clean.
Here's a picture of mine after opening it up for the first time in 19 years.
Kersplosion

 

[roostabunny]

That filter looks pretty nasty, and ththe clogged at can't be a good thing. Possibly clutch particulates as the magnets looked relatively clean.
Here's a picture of mine after opening it up for the first time in 19 years.
Kersplosion

Hmmm. The sands are shifting on me.

If I'm reading you right, the clogged filter may (or may not) actually be causing my loss of drive, but even if it is, it may not simply be a sign of neglect, but also of a deeper issue?

I was looking at this thread, and thinking I was just overdue for cleaning... but maybe I'm also wearing pretty hard on the clutches?

I makes intuitive sense to me that something that's wearing will eventually wear out, and maybe clogged filters means it's wearing faster than normal. Or reached a point where the wear pattern ramps up. Hopefully I can fix the current problem and do something to move the wear issue (trans rebuild/replace) a year or three down the road?

But I di-guess. I tend to do that.





So here's what I've got now - much cleaner...

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I'm letting the brake cleaner dry up so I can get a better look at the stuff that came out, but there's definitely a fiber component to the debris. I'm guessing any fiber-y or tan-colored bits are clutch material?

So, as I'm looking toward putting it back together once that filter gasket comes in... am I OK to stick with generic Dex/Merc? It reads "for use where Dexron-II, Dexron-III, or Mercon fluids are specified."

And what about Dexron-VI? My understanding is that Dexron-VI is thinner from the start, but doesn't thin as much with wear, so is more fuel efficient but still backwards compatible. That's an over simplification so I could understand it. Like it's thinner on day one, but over time, it's supposed to stay thicker than Dexron-III gets at the end of it's useful life.

Anyway... Dex/Merc seems like the most available way to get "Dex II", but I'd use Dex VI if it would function properly, as I feel like it's marginally more efficient, maybe a little higher grade base oil, and more common in stores.