Shop Build. Finally Broke Ground. (1 Viewer)

[BadReligion]

A few of you may remember this thread Price Check, Metal Building - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/price-check-metal-building.1250548/ I started a few years back. Due to delays, redesigns, and issues with the first metal building company, we are just now breaking ground on the workshop. Original plans were to build a main house too, but with construction and material prices remaining incredibly high, we are going to start with the shop, then hopefully continue with the house in the next few years. That unfortunately meant having to design a "living quarters" into the shop so we could get it approved as a stand alone building. Our county (Washoe) will not let you build a free standing shop without a residence on site too.

The overall cost was much higher than either me or the GC consultant could have ever guessed. If anyone wants specific pricing components for comparison, PM me, but I will not be discussing that in this thread. In hindsight, I should have done this 5 years ago and it would have been 30-40% of today's price, but nothing is ever going to significantly go down in price so there is no point waiting for the "right time." Financing something like this is difficult too. Banks will lend money all day long for a stick built or pole barn, but the second they see it's a metal building and the shop space is greater than 50% of the living space (and this is not your primary residence), the number of lenders goes down to single digits.

There are some pretty cool shop threads in this sub, and many of you have done this before so while the majority of the design cannot be changed, I would love to hear advice and ideas on everything from finish details to equipment selection, placement, etc.

First up are the elevations and floorplans. These are minimally changed from the original thread, other than the second story "apartment."

 

[BadReligion]

And now some site photos. Permits didn't come in until early Nov, so while not an ideal time to start, we wanted to try to get the foundation/slab in before it really starts snowing, The contractor doing the erection said cold temps are not fun to work in, but it won't really stop them from erecting.

Staging equipment

First time on site after they started moving dirt. I'll take this as a good sign.

Starting to see the cut form.

Footings dug.

 

[BadReligion]

Had to get a temp setup on the well for construction. Ended up buying a HF 9500W generator (can't go wrong for $800) to power the well and supply power for the construction crew. Chained it inside my M1101 trailer so hopefully it doesn't walk off. Access to the site is very limited so hopefully that keeps theft to a minimum.

We just passed the compaction test so the concrete sub will start laying rebar for the footings next week. Then we have a special inspection before the first pour. Then trenching for water/sewer, foamboard, pex, and second pour for the slab itself. If all goes well weatherwise and the subs stick to the tentative schedule, we are hoping to have the slab done before the end of this year. Once the metal kit finishes fabrication, the erector will hopefully start sometime in February.

So first question I have is regarding the 2 post lifts and placement. It seems like most recommend not setting anchor bolts during the slab pour, and instead drilling into the slab after. The slab will be 6" thick, which is fine for most 10k lifts, but I was thinking of doing 12k, which requires 6.5" slab. I also do not want to drill into a pex line (see below for routing, its complicated). Pex lines will be on top of the 2" foamboard, not on rebar in the middle of the slab.

Would the best option be determining lift manufacturer and brand now, so we can almost do small "footings" for the lift posts, and keep the pex out of that area?

Pex routing

 

[BadReligion]

Another question for the electricians out there.....power is not on site and we are working with the local utility to add service. Because we are so far away from the nearest transformer, and with us having USFS land on 3 of the 4 sides of the property, the utility said they will likely install a transformer on the property. I am going to go with an 800A single phase (cannot get 3 phase) service and transformer. The reason for 800A was 400A at the shop, and 400A at the house.

The electrician wants to do an 800A switchgear on the shop, but that is very $$$. A lot more than just a standard 800A panel. He claims that it will make install easier, especially since adding solar, generator, and battery are in the future plans. I'm not entirely thrilled with this electrician and am going to get a second bid.

The GC consultant (I'm doing an owner/builder, but paying a GC for oversight and consulting, same GC doing the shop erection) mentioned doing a 400A panel on the shop, then a second 400A panel on the house, if/when it is built. This would require 2 separate meters, and monthly minimum charges, but would be significantly cheaper than the 800A switchgear. The only downside to this would be tying in the solar/generator, as that can easily back up a single panel, but is more complex when tying into two separate panels.

Thoughts?

 

[1911]

... Original plans were to build a main house too, but with construction and material prices remaining incredibly high, we are going to start with the shop, then hopefully continue with the house in the next few years. That unfortunately meant having to design a "living quarters" into the shop so we could get it approved as a stand alone building. Our county (Washoe) will not let you build a free standing shop without a residence on site too.

In hindsight, I should have done this 5 years ago and it would have been 30-40% of today's price, but nothing is ever going to significantly go down in price so there is no point waiting for the "right time." Financing something like this is difficult too. Banks will lend money all day long for a stick built or pole barn, but the second they see it's a metal building and the shop space is greater than 50% of the living space (and this is not your primary residence), the number of lenders goes down to single digits.

We built our shop and an apartment first also, and I'm glad we did now thought I wasn't as sure at the time.

I'm surprised that your county isn't more lenient on codes and inspections, especially given your (beautiful!) rural location and the amount of rural land in Nevada. I also thought that Nevada would have less intrusive local government, because your state tax and corporate laws which are very desirable.

Don't beat yourself up with hindsight. You're still better off building now than you would be waiting longer to build. And some prices have come down - 2x4 lumber has come way down since I started buying that right after Covid.

My experience with banks is that it is worth the time to find one that specializes in ranch/farm land and rural projects. The difference between them and regular big banks is night and day for something like this. Start your search with farm/ag credit institutions; they understand rural projects that are outside the box for others, even if you are not going to ranch or farm per se. You will probably pay a higher interest rate than than at a big bank, but it will be way easier to get their approval and cooperation.

So first question I have is regarding the 2 post lifts and placement. It seems like most recommend not setting anchor bolts during the slab pour, and instead drilling into the slab after. The slab will be 6" thick, which is fine for most 10k lifts, but I was thinking of doing 12k, which requires 6.5" slab. I also do not want to drill into a pex line (see below for routing, its complicated). Pex lines will be on top of the 2" foamboard, not on rebar in the middle of the slab.

Would the best option be determining lift manufacturer and brand now, so we can almost do small "footings" for the lift posts, and keep the pex out of that area?

I drilled into the slab for anchor bolts after.

Seems to me that it would be fairly simple to keep the PEX lines away from the post footings, maybe a few extra elbow fittings to go around them, or just squeeze/pull the straight lines to either side of each footing.

Another question for the electricians out there.....power is not on site and we are working with the local utility to add service. Because we are so far away from the nearest transformer, and with us having USFS land on 3 of the 4 sides of the property, the utility said they will likely install a transformer on the property. I am going to go with an 800A single phase (cannot get 3 phase) service and transformer. The reason for 800A was 400A at the shop, and 400A at the house.

The electrician wants to do an 800A switchgear on the shop, but that is very $$$. A lot more than just a standard 800A panel. He claims that it will make install easier, especially since adding solar, generator, and battery are in the future plans. I'm not entirely thrilled with this electrician and am going to get a second bid.

The GC consultant (I'm doing an owner/builder, but paying a GC for oversight and consulting, same GC doing the shop erection) mentioned doing a 400A panel on the shop, then a second 400A panel on the house, if/when it is built. This would require 2 separate meters, and monthly minimum charges, but would be significantly cheaper than the 800A switchgear. The only downside to this would be tying in the solar/generator, as that can easily back up a single panel, but is more complex when tying into two separate panels.

Thoughts?

We had to get our own transformer due to distance also; ours is 600A single phase, what was readily available/economical from our power co-op. I have 200A at the shop/apartment, 200A at the house (on separate meters for tax reasons) and 200A spare capacity for any possible future projects. From my co-op, the separate meter/minimum charges are minimal, like $15/month, and way more than offset by the tax advantages.

I'm no electrician, but 400A seems like a lot for a modern dwelling, especially since you are planning solar and a generator - but I guess your heating needs are much greater than mine though.

I haven't got to the point of tying in a transfer switch for solar and a possible generator, but I'm leaving room in the wall where my main panel is to do so. I don't think tying them in will be a huge problem, but admit that I haven't done a ton of research on those yet either.

Congratulations on getting started, and all best wishes on your build.

 

[BadReligion]

We built our shop and an apartment first also, and I'm glad we did now thought I wasn't as sure at the time.

I'm surprised that your county isn't more lenient on codes and inspections, especially given your (beautiful!) rural location and the amount of rural land in Nevada. I also thought that Nevada would have less intrusive local government, because your state tax and corporate laws which are very desirable.

Don't beat yourself up with hindsight. You're still better off building now than you would be waiting longer to build. And some prices have come down - 2x4 lumber has come way down since I started buying that right after Covid.

My experience with banks is that it is worth the time to find one that specializes in ranch/farm land and rural projects. The difference between them and regular big banks is night and day for something like this. Start your search with farm/ag credit institutions; they understand rural projects that are outside the box for others, even if you are not going to ranch or farm per se. You will probably pay a higher interest rate than than at a big bank, but it will be way easier to get their approval and cooperation.




I drilled into the slab for anchor bolts after.

Seems to me that it would be fairly simple to keep the PEX lines away from the post footings, maybe a few extra elbow fittings to go around them, or just squeeze/pull the straight lines to either side of each footing.




We had to get our own transformer due to distance also; ours is 600A single phase, what was readily available/economical from our power co-op. I have 200A at the shop/apartment, 200A at the house (on separate meters for tax reasons) and 200A spare capacity for any possible future projects. From my co-op, the separate meter/minimum charges are minimal, like $15/month, and way more than offset by the tax advantages.

I'm no electrician, but 400A seems like a lot for a modern dwelling, especially since you are planning solar and a generator - but I guess your heating needs are much greater than mine though.

I haven't got to the point of tying in a transfer switch for solar and a possible generator, but I'm leaving room in the wall where my main panel is to do so. I don't think tying them in will be a huge problem, but admit that I haven't done a ton of research on those yet either.

Congratulations on getting started, and all best wishes on your build.

Awesome. All some very sound advice. I have really enjoyed your build thread over the years and have learned a lot from it!

Overall, construction in Nevada is pretty easy, but I am in one of 2 counties in the entire state that have strict building codes and smog checks (the 2 counties that surround Reno and Vegas). Anywhere else, you can take your cat-deleted diesel 80 down to the county building department, drop off hand drawn plans and walk out with a permit. If your house crumbles or falls down, it's on you. Very libertarian and how it should be, but they do not trust us "city folk" with much.

The photos I posted look a bit deceiving too. It looks much more isolated than it really is. The property is 15 miles and 20 minutes from downtown Reno and in what I call an "rural suburban" area. I have 5 acres with adjacent 5-10 acre USFS parcels, but then am surrounded by McMansion subdivisions that go on for miles. I did look into specialized AG loans and my acreage is too small, cost to build too high, and at best would qualify for a hobby farm/ranch with our planned chickens, goats, and llamas. Selling a few dozen eggs to the neighbors doesn't help qualify for an AG loan. We did find a bank (New Century in KS) that specializes in metal buildings and barndominiums that had no issues with the loan. As you mentioned, the interest rate and terms are not as favorable as the big banks, but they were very understanding of the project and also allowed me to do an owner/builder. I have the wife 90% convinced to sell our current house and live in the shop apartment when complete, as long as she gets some kind of house in 2 years. That will allow us to pay off the loan before getting hammered by interest.

The main reason for the 800A service is a combination of equipment in the shop, future planned house, and using electric for heating and cooling. We cannot easily and cheaply get a natural gas line on site, and I don't want to deal with the cost of propane, so HVAC will be mini splits for living areas, and swamp coolers for the shop. Wood fired boiler will take care of the radiant on the shop floor, with a wood stove to supplement heating in the apartment. We'll use electric for the water heater and dryer. I'll do a small, buried propane tank for the range, as I am not a fan of cooking with electric, even with the newer induction style range tops. I am leaning towards two 400A metered panels. I think our monthly minimum charges are $25 per meter. Still orders of magnitude less than an 800A switchgear, even over a 20+ year span.

 

[ZackR]

Another question for the electricians out there.....power is not on site and we are working with the local utility to add service. Because we are so far away from the nearest transformer, and with us having USFS land on 3 of the 4 sides of the property, the utility said they will likely install a transformer on the property. I am going to go with an 800A single phase (cannot get 3 phase) service and transformer. The reason for 800A was 400A at the shop, and 400A at the house.

The electrician wants to do an 800A switchgear on the shop, but that is very $$$. A lot more than just a standard 800A panel. He claims that it will make install easier, especially since adding solar, generator, and battery are in the future plans. I'm not entirely thrilled with this electrician and am going to get a second bid.

The GC consultant (I'm doing an owner/builder, but paying a GC for oversight and consulting, same GC doing the shop erection) mentioned doing a 400A panel on the shop, then a second 400A panel on the house, if/when it is built. This would require 2 separate meters, and monthly minimum charges, but would be significantly cheaper than the 800A switchgear. The only downside to this would be tying in the solar/generator, as that can easily back up a single panel, but is more complex when tying into two separate panels.

Thoughts?

It would be worth comparing what it would cost to go off grid (solar + battery) vs the utility connection, especially if you have a solid solar resource. It wouldn't be ideal if you are using a ton of electricity all of the time but it could possibly work for a regular residential shop.

 

[BadReligion]

It would be worth comparing what it would cost to go off grid (solar + battery) vs the utility connection, especially if you have a solid solar resource. It wouldn't be ideal if you are using a ton of electricity all of the time but it could possibly work for a regular residential shop.

We definitely considered this initially and even started the electrical design this way. But after bidding it out, it was 3x the cost of connecting to the grid, even after factoring in the federal tax rebate. The drawing below is of the equipment needed to provide 800A of power. It is a lot. I think in another 2-3 years it will be a lot closer. Panels and battery are still too expensive to compete with the grid. I do have experience with solar and installed a 36kw system on a commercial building I own. It was around $3/watt to install (including all wiring, components, inverters, etc). Prior to the solar, the summer electrical bill was $700+, now it is the minimum charge of $40. I calculated a 10 year ROI, and I plan on keeping the building for 20 years so it was worth it. But that is for a system that is supplemental. It is a lot more to make it the primary power source.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

That's a lot of amps. Is it going to be a commercial shop with multiple high HP motors operating at the same time? We have 400 amp service with a 7000 ft2 house and a 1600 ft2 shop, all heated and cooled with heat pumps. Not saying you don't need it, but was just curious.

Edit: I would drill for the lift after the slab is finished. My installer set the posts into position and then drilled with the posts in place. FWIW, they drilled all the way through the slab (6+") and then set the anchors (which were only imbedded 4"). They do that so that they can just hammer them below the slab surface if they ever have to move the lift. It minimizes damage to the slab in that scenario.

Obviously it would be helpful to know what lift you want to buy and where you want to set it to avoid the pex lines.

 

[BadReligion]

That's a lot of amps. Is it going to be a commercial shop with multiple high HP motors operating at the same time? We have 400 amp service with a 7000 ft2 house and a 1600 ft2 shop, all heated and cooled with heat pumps. Not saying you don't need it, but was just curious.

Edit: I would drill for the lift after the slab is finished. My installer set the posts into position and then drilled with the posts in place. FWIW, they drilled all the way through the slab (6+") and then set the anchors (which were only imbedded 4"). They do that so that they can just hammer them below the slab surface if they ever have to move the lift. It minimizes damage to the slab in that scenario.

Obviously it would be helpful to know what lift you want to buy and where you want to set it to avoid the pex lines.

Agreed on the service size. Another mistake I made was hiring electrical and mechanical engineers that are 80% commercial, 20% residential design. I find that they tend to spec a residential application the same as a commercial one. Their reasoning is "better be over spec than under." But they are not the ones paying for construction. If the cost difference between 600 and 800A on the transformer is minimal, I'll still go 800A, but plan on 400A to the shop, and 200A to the house, leaving 200A in reserve. Otherwise, I may go down to 600A on the transformer.

No crazy high HP/amp motors and this is strictly a hobby shop. At most, we may end up with one guy welding, one guy on a plasma cutter, and someone else on a pneumatic cut off wheel all at the same time, with the mini splits going in the summer and a 2HP well pump running. Still well within even a 400A service. Especially considering most modern appliances (and the mini splits) are fairly energy efficient, everything is LED nowadays, and the heat pump water heaters are also very efficient. There are some sections of electric radiant planned in the apartment and main home, but just in a few areas.

After talking to the concrete sub and building erector, they are all in agreement to drill into the slab for the lifts. The erector said that if setting anchor bolts, they usually get beat up and bent during erection. We are going to dig down an extra 12" and create a set of "mini" footings for the lift posts. I am going to try to select a lift in the next week or two. If time was not so much of an issue, car dealers and service shops seem to be a good source of quality, but reasonably priced used lifts, same with county/state auctions. I don't have a lot of time so I may just go with a pair of Bendpak 12ks. Yes it's made in China, but so is everything anymore. At least the warranty is decent.

 

[BadReligion]

Footings are finished, rebar is in, and ready for first "special" inspection tomorrow. Then hopefully we can start pouring concrete for the footings on Monday.

 

[BadReligion]

Typical local government BS. I wouldn't be so upset except that this cost at least $20k. There is a very "seasonal" stream that flows across my acces road. This first photo was taken during a 2 day atmospheric river event that produced 2" of rainfall in 2 days, which is very significant for our area. The drainage swale that "flows" across the access road looked like this, during the most rainfall this property will ever see.

As a result of this, the county required us to place a 24" (yes, 2 '!) culvert under the road, to handle a flow that could be contained by 4" PVC. Absolutely ridiculous, and I'm sure there will be more surprises to come. All determined by some "engineer" sitting in an office in the county building in downtown Reno, who has never set foot on the property. If I ran my business like the local government is run, I would be broke in a week.

 

[PIP]

800 amp service is way overkill.

First, "400A", "600A", "800A", whatever is a little bit irrelevant. The transformer will be sized in KVA. Give us that information as that is what matters.

I have a "400A" single phase service to my shop. My transformer is 45 KVA or 187 amps 240V single phase.

My shop is just under 8K sq ft with 20' ceilings. I use a large rotary phase converter fed from a 200 amp disconnect and 2/0 copper to feed I-line 3 phase busway distribution throughout the building. I run 6 CNC's with 15 to 80HP spindles (yep, I said 80 lol) as well as some manual machines, press brakes, stamping presses, welders, 7 tons of heat pumps and whatever else I need. I can upgrade to 400A 480 3 phase service for about $15k when/if I need to, but I haven't had the need yet. I regularly run around 100 amps 240 single phase continuously. On machine startup, I can draw 400+ amps momentarily.

800A service for a non-heavy industrial application sounds beyond overkill to me.

Nice looking shop BTW!

Oh, I've owned, moved, installed lots of 2 post lifts. Drill holes after and use epoxy with B7 studs. Don't use expanding anchors to mount a 2 post lift. The cyclic loading the lift post to floor hardware undergoes loosens expanding type anchors. Epoxy is the foolproof solution here.

 

[BadReligion]

800 amp service is way overkill.

First, "400A", "600A", "800A", whatever is a little bit irrelevant. The transformer will be sized in KVA. Give us that information as that is what matters.

I have a "400A" single phase service to my shop. My transformer is 45 KVA or 187 amps 240V single phase.

My shop is just under 8K sq ft with 20' ceilings. I use a large rotary phase converter fed from a 200 amp disconnect and 2/0 copper to feed I-line 3 phase busway distribution throughout the building. I run 6 CNC's with 15 to 80HP spindles (yep, I said 80 lol) as well as some manual machines, press brakes, stamping presses, welders, 7 tons of heat pumps and whatever else I need. I can upgrade to 400A 480 3 phase service for about $15k when/if I need to, but I haven't had the need yet. I regularly run around 100 amps 240 single phase continuously. On machine startup, I can draw 400+ amps momentarily.

800A service for a non-heavy industrial application sounds beyond overkill to me.

Nice looking shop BTW!

Oh, I've owned, moved, installed lots of 2 post lifts. Drill holes after and use epoxy with B7 studs. Don't use expanding anchors to mount a 2 post lift. The cyclic loading the lift post to floor hardware undergoes loosens expanding type anchors. Epoxy is the foolproof solution here.

Thanks! There was a bit of back and forth between the architect and metal building company to get everything in the floorplan and elevations to fit within the structural beams, but I am really happy with the final design and excited to see how it takes shape.

With the transformer going on our property, and being the only property it will service, the power company will size it to whatever service we want. I agree that 800A is far too much. The more I think about it, 400A at the shop, and 200A at the house, on two separate panels and meters makes the most sense. If you can run a commercial shop with 80HP motors on 400A, then that is well beyond what I will ever need.

That is also great advise about epoxying in the studs for the lift. With all of the lifts you have owned, any recommendations? I mentioned Bendpack, but am fully aware that is going to be a hobby grade lift, which I am ok with. I've heard the Rotary SPO12 is a step up, and not much more in price. Something like a Mohawk would just be overkill, unless I could find a local used set for a good price.

 

[PIP]

That is also great advise about epoxying in the studs for the lift. With all of the lifts you have owned, any recommendations? I mentioned Bendpack, but am fully aware that is going to be a hobby grade lift, which I am ok with. I've heard the Rotary SPO12 is a step up, and not much more in price. Something like a Mohawk would just be overkill, unless I could find a local used set for a good price.

I would agree with your assessment of lifts. Mohawk is on my keep an eye out for a deal list as well.

The biggest thing I've learned from owning a few different 2 posts is buy a lift that uses bearings inside, not plastic pads that slide. The cheaper ones with the plastic pads don't hold up long term and are a lot of work to fix.

 

[PIP]

With the transformer going on our property, and being the only property it will service, the power company will size it to whatever service we want.

The way your utility sizes the transformer is a variable. utilities don't size transformers to deliver 100% of the service amps because transformers are a load by themselves. An unnecessarily large transformer uses power just sitting there doing nothing. Some utilities undersize transformers by quite a lot. It's worth it to ask them what KVA transformer they will set you up with for a given service size. That way you aren't over or under doing the rest of your equipment.

 

[Rugy]

Not sure what the cost of your utility company will charge for the electrical service but,
Think you get a fair bit more sunshine than we do here in BC.
The cost to install an off grid system capable of doing what you may need might be less than the cost of
the utility company service and then the bills forever.

 

[BadReligion]

Footings have been poured, anchor bolts are in. Those things are pretty massive. The concrete sub did not have enough long anchor bolts to go above the gravel/insulation/slab, so they have to use couplers and extension anchor bolts in one of the footings. I checked with the structural engineer and he didn't seem too concerned, as long as the couplers have viewing windows to make sure the anchor bolts are equally seated in the coupler.

Septic has been dug too. Had to do an engineered system in anticipation of the future house. Three 70' trenches, 10' deep. The shop gets a 1000g tank, while the future house would need 1500g. The county would not let me do a single 2500g tank, which would have been cheaper.

Next up will be compacted gravel base (footings will be left open and slab pour will go on top of them), trenching and placement of sewer lines, then vapor barrier, then 2" foamboard that has PEX channels in it. Then pex, then we can pour the slab. So far, the weather is continuing to hold, but rain/snow could make the next 3 weeks a bit complicated. I foresee 5200SF of blankets. Once the slab is in, I will be less concerned about the weather.

Building kit has been finalized and ordered. 2 weeks of detail engineering, then it enters fabrication, with a shipping ETA of mid February. That's when this project will really start to take shape.

 

[BadReligion]

@PIP and anyone else with a 2 post lift, would you recommend centering these in their respective bay? As shown on the drawings, they are slightly offset closer to the stairway to the mezzanine (I don't think the width is shown on scale either, I want to go with the wide configuration of 12' between the posts). It also looks like the distance from the post to the front wall is just over 10', but there will be a 3' deep wood boiler on the wall too, so really only 6' or less of clearance. What is an ideal amount of clearance in front of the lift? I have plenty of space to bring them back.

 

[Waorani]

Centered on bay door seems best to me but if you have lots of distance from door to lift it's probably not as important. 12ft clearance from front posts on my asymmetric lift gives me plenty of working room.