Information needed for front end alignment (1 Viewer)

[Mike NXP]

Over the past few years I've been fighting a losing battle trying to get my cruiser to drive straight at highway speeds.

Vehicle
2002 LC with 230k miles
Stock front end ride height

Problem

• Vehicle pulls to the right. I have to apply constant left hand steering wheel pressure to keep on track. Its not too bad around town at lower speeds but once you get up to 50mph or more it requires constant attention to keep straight
• Uneven tire wear doesn't seem to be an issue
  
  Previous repair history
• With the exception of the original control arms, all front end components have been replaced w/ new Toyota OEM parts installed. This includes wheel bearings, tie roads, axles, etc.
• 2 maybe 3 years ago I had Toyota install outer tie rods + (reman) power steering rack . They couldn't get it to drive straight so I brought to a heavy truck alignment shop
• The alignment shop said my rack bushings are shot and they can't align it. Hmmm new parts are shot?
• Toyota said the movement is normal but a few months later that reman rack failed ( leaking and torn boot) and Toyota agreed to get it replaced
• Happy days and right back to the alignment shop.... Sure enough they same the same thing, your rack bushings are shot.

Repaired this week

• I can't deal with the lack of alignment and right and pull anymore. I brought it to a local indy shop who seems to know about cruisers. I told them my problem and I just need to get an alignment
• They said my rack is fine and that amount of play is normal
• Then I was told wheel bearing preload on both sides is loose and I need upper and lower ball joints on passenger side. WTF? Just paid Toyota for wheel bearing job and I didn't have any clunks or symptoms of bad BJs but I go ahead got it all replaced anyway.... 555 BJ on lower and mystery Napa part on uppers ( First non OEM part to ever touch my cruiser, sad)
• Next stop is the alignment shop. They tell me everything is within spec on the computer but just barely. I was told my camber is maxed out
• The drive home was depressing, it definitely didn't get better and a part of me thinks its even worse now

Current state + Questions

• I call the alignment shop back and ask them if there is anything else they can do and explain it still pulls hard right.
• I was told since front end parts are new and they are maxed out on adjustment there isn't anything else to be done
• They suggested I buy SPC adjustable upper control arms and I was told this would give them more room to adjust
  >> Is this the solution or just a random suggestion? I didn't think a non lifted vehicle would need adjustable uppers.
• Looks like @crikeymike sells these parts but I'd hate to keep throwing parts on this problem. IT seems like usually people add these adjustable arms when they are lifted. Otherwise I am at an absolute dead end. Several years and many dollars later.

 

[Trapper50cal]

SPC UCA's give an additional 6º of adjustment...+3º one way and -3º the other way (IIRC)
It may be the case that they are actually adjustable for caster AND camber.
Also, IIRC, Dobinsons give a fixed 3º that allows normal "cam" adjustment in a more appropriate range for lifts.

But you're correct, it should adjust to spec with OEM UCA's if the ride height is stock

Someone correct me if my numbers aren't accurate.

 

[jLB]

Over the past few years I've been fighting a losing battle trying to get my cruiser to drive straight at highway speeds.

Vehicle
2002 LC with 230k miles
Stock front end ride height

Problem

• Vehicle pulls to the right. I have to apply constant left hand steering wheel pressure to keep on track. Its not too bad around town at lower speeds but once you get up to 50mph or more it requires constant attention to keep straight
• Uneven tire wear doesn't seem to be an issue
  
  Previous repair history
• With the exception of the original control arms, all front end components have been replaced w/ new Toyota OEM parts installed. This includes wheel bearings, tie roads, axles, etc.
• 2 maybe 3 years ago I had Toyota install outer tie rods + (reman) power steering rack . They couldn't get it to drive straight so I brought to a heavy truck alignment shop
• The alignment shop said my rack bushings are shot and they can't align it. Hmmm new parts are shot?
• Toyota said the movement is normal but a few months later that reman rack failed ( leaking and torn boot) and Toyota agreed to get it replaced
• Happy days and right back to the alignment shop.... Sure enough they same the same thing, your rack bushings are shot.

Repaired this week

• I can't deal with the lack of alignment and right and pull anymore. I brought it to a local indy shop who seems to know about cruisers. I told them my problem and I just need to get an alignment
• They said my rack is fine and that amount of play is normal
• Then I was told wheel bearing preload on both sides is loose and I need upper and lower ball joints on passenger side. WTF? Just paid Toyota for wheel bearing job and I didn't have any clunks or symptoms of bad BJs but I go ahead got it all replaced anyway.... 555 BJ on lower and mystery Napa part on uppers ( First non OEM part to ever touch my cruiser, sad)
• Next stop is the alignment shop. They tell me everything is within spec on the computer but just barely. I was told my camber is maxed out
• The drive home was depressing, it definitely didn't get better and a part of me thinks its even worse now

Current state + Questions

• I call the alignment shop back and ask them if there is anything else they can do and explain it still pulls hard right.
• I was told since front end parts are new and they are maxed out on adjustment there isn't anything else to be done
• They suggested I buy SPC adjustable upper control arms and I was told this would give them more room to adjust
  >> Is this the solution or just a random suggestion? I didn't think a non lifted vehicle would need adjustable uppers.
• Looks like @crikeymike sells these parts but I'd hate to keep throwing parts on this problem. IT seems like usually people add these adjustable arms when they are lifted. Otherwise I am at an absolute dead end. Several years and many dollars later.

I went through this about 11 years ago, on my son’s “new to him” 2000 LC. I did put the SPC UCAs on the vehicle. They did help, but they were really only temporarily masking other issues, while we slowly worked through replacing the worn bits in the steering/suspension/drivetrain that were the real source(s) of the problem(s)

 

[Mike NXP]

But you're correct, it should adjust to spec with OEM UCA's if the ride height is stock

Good information, thanks. I guess the alignment techs logics is if he could get more adjustment out of it then he can mess with things to get me straight again. I don't think I can justify the money for something that shouldn't really be necessary given my ride height.

I went through this about 11 years ago, on my son’s “new to him” 2000 LC. I did put the SPC UCAs on the vehicle. They did help, but they were really only temporarily masking other issues, while we slowly worked through replacing the worn bits in the steering/suspension/drivetrain that were the real source(s) of the problem(s)

Right, I was sort of thinking the same thing but I can't think of any other front end parts that I haven't already replaced. The only original parts are the control arms and bushings but they are tight

>> The only other issue that stands out to me is a bit of dead play in the steering wheel. Not sure if its in the shaft, top of the rack, or the rack bushings but the indy shop told me a bit of play in the rack is OK and shouldn't cause this issue either.

To me the problem is simple, I need an alignment but it seems no one can get me going straight. The most recent conclusion was they need a bit more adjustment so that is why the SPC's ( or some kind of adjustable upper ) was suggested

 

[jLB]

To me the problem is simple, I need an alignment but it seems no one can get me going straight. The most recent conclusion was they need a bit more adjustment so that is why the SPC's ( or some kind of adjustable upper ) was suggested

The SPC UCA definitely add adjustment, also dialing in a little extra caster, above factory specs, adds some inertia (resistance deviating from tracking straight), it’s an effective band aid, but not the source of the issue(s)

On my son’s we slowly worked our way through every bushing, rubber mounts, ball joint, TRE, etc.

 

[Mike NXP]

The SPC UCA definitely add adjustment, also dialing in a little extra caster, above factory specs, adds some inertia (resistance deviating from tracking straight), it’s an effective band aid, but not the source of the issue(s)

Good point , I agree there must be another solution and the adjustable control arm suggestion must be band-aid solution...Unfortunately I just gotta deal with it for now... my wife refuses to drive this rig anymore and Im super bummed that I have to constantly correct it to keep straight...

In the past it was also suggested that I replace the rack bushings with poly... the Indy shop says my current rack is moving a little but all within spec

Ive got a neglected 83 camry that drives smoother and straighter than my cruiser that I dump endless money into lol wtf

>>
Ive got a video somewhere, let me try to post it. With the tires on the ground I can have someone gently turn the steering wheel and you can see the rack moving
Maybe an inch or so which seems like an issue to me but then again I dont know how stiffer bushings would translate to the ability to get a better alignment


Im at a dead end otherwise . All parts have been replaced, tire pressure is good , and I've tried two alignment shops on multiple occasions.

 

[crikeymike]

You shouldn't need aftermarket UCA's to get a normal alignment on a non-lifted vehicle. I wonder if your ride height is too far below stock from worn out suspension? Just like when you lift it, numbers go out of whack, but possibly if it's gotten too low, they're out of whack the other way. That said, SPC arms can work with no lift, as they have 0 settings as well as + and - settings with camber/caster.

Can you post up an alignment sheet, lots of people on the forum are good at reading those and trying to figure out the issue. FWIW, I've gone to 3-4 shops to try and find good alignments. I can't see how the vehicle would still pull to the right when they could adjust the toe of a wheel to straighten it up. Maybe your rear end is bent? What condition are the rear trailing arms and bushings in? I sold some arms to a guy recently that his alignment shop told him his rear end was out of alignment from worn out bushings. The print out from a 4 wheel alignment would show that.

My first inclination after reading everything is that something is bent. Aka a bent frame, bent control arm, or something like that.

 

[jLB]

my wife refuses to drive this rig anymore

You could always abandon it in my driveway

In the past it was also suggested that I replace the rack bushings with poly...

I’ve had pretty good results with those.

 

[Mike NXP]

Thanks for all that info crikeymike

Ride height
- Front suspension is relatively new, Toyota OEM. Replaced all the bushings and whatever else was in there at the time
- Last time I measured center hub to fender I think I was right around 19 1/2 -20" so being too low should be OK
- I do have a bit of rake, as my rear end sits about 2 inches higher than the front when unloaded, due to heavy springs for extra load at times.

Alignment print out
- They didn't give me an alignment print out, doh! I'm going back tomorrow to get one and then I will post it

Bent rear end
- Very possible, I was slammed at a red light in my rear right corner when I first got the vehicle 6+ years ago. The body shop said the frame was OK but who knows if they even checked anything
- The indy shop I had it at last week did say my rear upper control arms bushings were slightly worn out but not too bad. They said the lowers are good to go. I was told that could lead to wandering / sloppy feel but I assumed the vehicle could still get aligned / not be maxed out due to these bushings being worn


I feel slightly better knowing other folks have suffered with this same problem and have tried multiple shops too lol

 

[Mike NXP]

You could always abandon it in my driveway

haha you sonova gun..... That may have been part of my problem. I recently picked up a GX470, and while I know my big heavy 100 series will never ride like a stock GX with all it's fancy steering stuff, that smooth luxurious lexus ride has got me wanting more out of my 100.

 

[SteveH]

you can see the rack moving Maybe an inch or so

IMO, your rack should only show barely perceptible movement from side-to-side. An 'inch' would be WAY too much.

When I had worn out OEM bushings on my '98 4Runner (with a ton of miles), the rack moved perhaps 1/2" and after installing Energy Suspension poly bushings, it had almost no play and was much tighter on the road.

 

[Trapper50cal]

The other ancillary benefit of new UCA's is new bushings and UBJ's - removes them from the "could be" pile.
Not that I'm suggesting another salvo from the parts cannon, just sayin'

 

[jLB]

haha you sonova gun..... That may have been part of my problem. I recently picked up a GX470, and while I know my big heavy 100 series will never ride like a stock GX with all it's fancy steering stuff, that smooth luxurious lexus ride has got me wanting more out of my 100.

Having purchased both an 03 GX, and 04 T4R V8 Limited 4WD, new, with the rear air suspension. While they seem almost “sporty” compared to a 100 series, they are not built to the same level, and it “sucks” when the rear airbags “spring a leak”, and you’re driving around on the rear bump stops . The GX460 above now lives with my brother. I’m stuck in the 90s-00s era of vehicles.

 

[Mike NXP]

you can see the rack moving Maybe an inch or so

I found the video, see below. Maybe claiming that it's moving an inch was a bit of a stretch. What do you think? Too much slop and possibly affecting alignment... Or is this acting like any other new / reman Toyota rack


@Trapper50cal
Agreed. I haven't personally checked but the indy shop said the bushings/upper arms feel tight. They did just replace passenger side upper and lower BJ

. While they seem almost “sporty” compared to a 100 series, they are not built to the same level

Definitely agree with you there. I'm glad my 100 series is built for camping and off road duty. The GX has managed to live its entire life on the pavement only, so now that I have purchased it I am going to continue to pamper it. That truck has spent the last few months under a cover waiting for spring to arrive =]

 

[gnob]

let's see the printout.

 

[Mike NXP]

let's see the printout.

I'm on it. I will go back to the shop tomorrow morning to get it and then post it up here.

Thanks for all the replies

 

[Mike NXP]

And here is a closer view of the new/reman rack D bushing. You can see the rack moving a little bit but IDK it doesn't seem all that bad.

The steering wheel definitely has some dead play to it but nothing really feels loose or sloppy if that makes sense. Its just a constant pull to the right that requires a bit of left steering wheel turn to keep it trying to go straight. Let off the wheel or stop paying attention for a second and it drifts towards the ditch.

 

[LJE]

My first inclination after reading everything is that something is bent. Aka a bent frame, bent control arm, or something like that.

Bent rear end
- Very possible, I was slammed at a red light in my rear right corner when I first got the vehicle 6+ years ago. The body shop said the frame was OK but who knows if they even checked anything
- The indy shop I had it at last week did say my rear upper control arms bushings were slightly worn out but not too bad. They said the lowers are good to go. I was told that could lead to wandering / sloppy feel but I assumed the vehicle could still get aligned / not be maxed out due to these bushings being worn


I feel slightly better knowing other folks have suffered with this same problem and have tried multiple shops too lol

When did this problem start?

IMO, I'd expect sloppy bushings to give you sloppy steering overall - not pull a specific direction. When my parents passed on their 2003 Sequoia to me with very shot steering rack bushings (same 2 circular plus one big 'D' bushing as your LC), it had dangerously sloppy steering, but it pulled randomly one side or the other,

My bet is on something mechanical being bent. A 4-wheel alignment should tell you, or I bet you could probably pull some shenanigians to try to get some sort of measurements on your rear axle perhaps. (I wonder if just measuring center-to-center distances from the front to rear wheels on each side would tell you anything?)

 

[Mike NXP]

When did this problem start?

IMO, I'd expect sloppy bushings to give you sloppy steering overall - not pull a specific direction. When my parents passed on their 2003 Sequoia to me with very shot steering rack bushings (same 2 circular plus one big 'D' bushing as your LC), it had dangerously sloppy steering, but it pulled randomly one side or the other,

My bet is on something mechanical being bent. A 4-wheel alignment should tell you, or I bet you could probably pull some shenanigians to try to get some sort of measurements on your rear axle perhaps. (I wonder if just measuring center-to-center distances from the front to rear wheels on each side would tell you anything?)

Yeah that makes sense. I feel like everything steering and suspension related is tight and has been replaced with oem since Ive owned it .

Looking back at my repair notes, it looks like the rack, tie rods, axles, bearings, flanges wers replaced in 2021 at 203k miles. Im now at 235k ish

In my notes it says , replacing front end parts to try and correct right hand pull so it seems to have been bothering me even before that.

Tires are nearly new as well. Rotated again recently , pressures good as well. Vehicle is off roaded but not abused. On long highway trips the constant wheel correction really gets annoying

Maybe I can try that measurement concept , easy enough to give it a try .

------

Either way based on everyone's response , I think I can at least check off the concept of swapping upper control arms and focus more on diagnosing again

 

[2001LC]

First accidents and or hard off road use. May warrant having frame measured. Most large cities, have one or more frame measuring racks.

Over the past few years I've been fighting a losing battle trying to get my cruiser to drive straight at highway speeds.

Vehicle
2002 LC with 230k miles
Stock front end ride height

Problem

• Vehicle pulls to the right. I have to apply constant left hand steering wheel pressure to keep on track. Its not too bad around town at lower speeds but once you get up to 50mph or more it requires constant attention to keep straight
• Uneven tire wear doesn't seem to be an issue
  
  Previous repair history
• With the exception of the original control arms, all front end components have been replaced w/ new Toyota OEM parts installed. This includes wheel bearings, tie roads, axles, etc.
• 2 maybe 3 years ago I had Toyota install outer tie rods + (reman) power steering rack . They couldn't get it to drive straight so I brought to a heavy truck alignment shop
• The alignment shop said my rack bushings are shot and they can't align it. Hmmm new parts are shot?
• Toyota said the movement is normal but a few months later that reman rack failed ( leaking and torn boot) and Toyota agreed to get it replaced
• Happy days and right back to the alignment shop.... Sure enough they same the same thing, your rack bushings are shot.

Repaired this week

• I can't deal with the lack of alignment and right and pull anymore. I brought it to a local indy shop who seems to know about cruisers. I told them my problem and I just need to get an alignment
• They said my rack is fine and that amount of play is normal
• Then I was told wheel bearing preload on both sides is loose and I need upper and lower ball joints on passenger side. WTF? Just paid Toyota for wheel bearing job and I didn't have any clunks or symptoms of bad BJs but I go ahead got it all replaced anyway.... 555 BJ on lower and mystery Napa part on uppers ( First non OEM part to ever touch my cruiser, sad)
• Next stop is the alignment shop. They tell me everything is within spec on the computer but just barely. I was told my camber is maxed out
• The drive home was depressing, it definitely didn't get better and a part of me thinks its even worse now

Current state + Questions

• I call the alignment shop back and ask them if there is anything else they can do and explain it still pulls hard right.
• I was told since front end parts are new and they are maxed out on adjustment there isn't anything else to be done
• They suggested I buy SPC adjustable upper control arms and I was told this would give them more room to adjust
  >> Is this the solution or just a random suggestion? I didn't think a non lifted vehicle would need adjustable uppers.
• Looks like @crikeymike sells these parts but I'd hate to keep throwing parts on this problem. IT seems like usually people add these adjustable arms when they are lifted. Otherwise I am at an absolute dead end. Several years and many dollars later.

I rarely find UBJ bad. Unless bad boot allowed in containments. Or someone using a BFH to beat off ball joint. Smashing boot & ball. OR Accident damage. OR other front end components so loose, they exert excessive force.

Cross level & rake:
Hub to fender FL19 1/2 & FR20". About 2" rake. Means ~22" rear. (RL 21 1/2, RR 22 1/2"). So are you lifted, sitting drive side low in front, right rear high?

I just measured, a stock 07LC, w/24K miles. Fonts (FL & FR) 18 15/16". Rears (RL & RR) 20 ". No accidents or off road. Accident often change fender position....

Hub to fender is a quick and dirt measurement. Actual is ground to points of undercarriage. Alignment shops should set this second after setting tire pressure. vehicle empty and gas tank full.

Alignment print-out is important:
Alignment racks, store vehicle info. Call and get print outs. We need know SAI and thrust angle.

Is vehicle body/frame tracking in same line as tires. Or does it crab down the road.

" camber max":
Is a clue. May have a bent steering knuckle, bent fame, bent control arm and or bad bushing.

I've had one, I was told. For 5 years this very built rig, pulled to one side. Reportedly, been to ever good alignment shop around. Nothing helped. I did a full front end service. Including new OEM LCAs and #2 bushing.

The interesting thing was: #2 LCA bushing, needed 3 spacer, to get bushing set, so LCA fit in relaxed. Pull finally gone.

Thanks for all that info crikeymike

Ride height
- Front suspension is relatively new, Toyota OEM. Replaced all the bushings and whatever else was in there at the time
- Last time I measured center hub to fender I think I was right around 19 1/2 -20" so being too low should be OK
- I do have a bit of rake, as my rear end sits about 2 inches higher than the front when unloaded, due to heavy springs for extra load at times.

Alignment print out
- They didn't give me an alignment print out, doh! I'm going back tomorrow to get one and then I will post it

Bent rear end
- Very possible, I was slammed at a red light in my rear right corner when I first got the vehicle 6+ years ago. The body shop said the frame was OK but who knows if they even checked anything
- The indy shop I had it at last week did say my rear upper control arms bushings were slightly worn out but not too bad. They said the lowers are good to go. I was told that could lead to wandering / sloppy feel but I assumed the vehicle could still get aligned / not be maxed out due to these bushings being worn


I feel slightly better knowing other folks have suffered with this same problem and have tried multiple shops too lol