Information needed for front end alignment

[Mike NXP]

Were those before you added the extra rake with the rear springs?

Good question . I believe all previous alignment attempts were indeed with the new beefy coils installed / increased rake
** Checked service dates and confirmed past few alignment attempts were with heavy coils installed. Its funny , looking at my records I installed tires , new shocks,and coils. I noted it rode pretty high in the rear. Few months later apparently I sold the tires and blamed them for lack of alignment.

I wonder how much the rear ride height can possibly affect the front wheel caster and other adjustments

The recent alignment guy told me it's OK if I want to come back by with a few hundred pounds loaded to recheck everything but im not sure if its worth their time

 

[Live to Ski]

man, this is intense.

I have to send to my computer so I can study on the big screen.

FYI: just had my 3 yr usa made cooper at3 xt's rotated resultng in viscious torque pull to rignt. this drove me (no pun there) to have alignment done by a san diego lc forum refered shop (i'll post before/after measurements once I get to said computer).

Culprit: rotating shop did 5 way with spare. all tires within spec w/r air pressure EXCEPT front left which was at 70psi, did the alignement anyway since 3 yrs since last and he lowered high tire presurte to within spec (I said 40psi all around). Drove 60m highway back home, seems to drive just as before the rotation (acceptable).

Yest, I will have a word with the rotation place w/r to over inflated front tire...live threatening dangerous.

However, in this thread (and referenced other mud thread), I just learned about the fixed caster (vs adjustable) compensating aftermarket control arms for lifted vehicles. I will have to investigate as I also suffer from the sensative steering syndrome.

boy, one hasto know there sh&t when working these rigs.

 

[Mike NXP]

man, this is intense.

I have to send to my computer so I can study on the big screen.

FYI: just had my 3 yr usa made cooper at3 xt's rotated resultng in viscious torque pull to rignt. this drove me (no pun there) to have alignment done by a san diego lc forum refered shop (i'll post before/after measurements once I get to said computer).

Culprit: rotating shop did 5 way with spare. all tires within spec w/r air pressure EXCEPT front left which was at 70psi, did the alignement anyway since 3 yrs since last and he lowered high tire presurte to within spec (I said 40psi all around). Drove 60m highway back home, seems to drive just as before the rotation (acceptable).

Yest, I will have a word with the rotation place w/r to over inflated front tire...live threatening dangerous.

However, in this thread (and referenced other mud thread), I just learned about the fixed caster (vs adjustable) compensating aftermarket control arms for lifted vehicles. I will have to investigate as I also suffer from the sensative steering syndrome.

boy, one hasto know there sh&t when working these rigs.

For sure , I considered tires being a problem when this all first started. Rotated a bunch and eventually just sold and replaced them.

I think the problem is clear ,based on the alignment printout. Caster out of whack and toe out in the rear . The solution on the other hand is unknown.


>> I wonder if its worth bringing it back to alignment shop now that ive got weight in the back, since they said no charge to check it out again .

 

[Mike NXP]

Alright well my new focus is getting my ride height / positive rake back within factory range.

• When unloaded I have almost 4" of difference between the front and rear, and this is how I brought for previous alignment attempts
• I'm going to ask the shop to drop my front end down to 19.5" and make sure its level side to side. Given the number that 2001lc posted this is just a half inch over the factory 100 he measured recently
• I have a bunch of sandbags in the trunk right now, about 500lbs and I'm sitting around 22" in the rear. Maybe I should add more weight to get another inch lower
  
  This does nothing to solve the toe out in the rear tires but I'm trying to ignore that for now. If this makes any difference then I think my next move will be to swap in some lighter duty coils thanks to CrikeyMikes suggestions.

Going to drop it back off at the shop, thanks for all the replies mud world

 

[Land Shark]

Just a thought and sorry if this was covered in the thread already but how does you panhard bar look? Meaning is there much of a slant/. Pretty level? Not even sure that would play here but maybe...

 

[Mike NXP]

Just a thought and sorry if this was covered in the thread already but how does you panhard bar look? Meaning is there much of a slant/. Pretty level? Not even sure that would play here but maybe...

Pic below. The bar is new OEM replaced after I got rear ended 5+ years ago. It appears to be slanted a bit but not sure what to compare it with.
> This is with no weight in the trunk just bumper weight

>

 

[Land Shark]

Pic below. The bar is new OEM replaced after I got rear ended 5+ years ago. It appears to be slanted a bit but not sure what to compare it with.
> This is with no weight in the trunk just bumper weight

View attachment 3847884


>

Again. Not sure it plays here but yea thats got quite a bit of slant. Axle may be shift

 

[Mike NXP]

Again. Not sure it plays here but yea thats got quite a bit of slant. Axle may be shift

I should have taken a picture with the weight in it to see if its any different but yeah it does seem to slant a lot.

If something was really bent, wouldn't it have made for some issues when the new panhard bar was installed after the accident ?

Alignment guy seemed knowledgeable with torsion bars and was on board for getting me leveled out and back closer to factory up front , lets see if that + loaded down in the rear does anything to help. Idk

 

[Malleus]

Not if it wasn't bent there

 

[Bisho]

Let's do some quick math:
Your rear tires have a difference of 0.67°. If we take sine(0.67)*63.8" (63.8" is the track width of a stock 100 series from what I can find), you should see that the driver's side wheel is 0.75" further from the front wheel than the passanger side.

Does this make that big of a difference? I don't actually know.

It was my understanding there would be no math.

 

[Malleus]

I should have taken a picture with the weight in it to see if its any different but yeah it does seem to slant a lot.

If something was really bent, wouldn't it have made for some issues when the new panhard bar was installed after the accident ?

Alignment guy seemed knowledgeable with torsion bars and was on board for getting me leveled out and back closer to factory up front , lets see if that + loaded down in the rear does anything to help. Idk

MIke,

Here are a couple of Toyota training documents that might be of interest to you. They are a part of the T453 Suspension, Steering and Handling Technician Training Course. I have the entire course, so let me know if you think you might be interested, and I'll post it in the Resources section for the good of the group.

 

[Malleus]

...and from Section 10,

This is the kind of information a frame shop would provide you. It's difficult, but by no means impossible to do this yourself. The simplest way would be to hang a plumb bob from any of the points of interest and mark their locations on the floor. Then, move the truck and connect the dots. This is essentially what the frame machine does in inspection mode. It makes pretty pictures, too. You'd have to do that part yourself

This is just a sample to use to gauge your interest. LMK

 

[LJE]

...and from Section 10,
View attachment 3848305
View attachment 3848306

This is the kind of information a frame shop would provide you. It's difficult, but by no means impossible to do this yourself. The simplest way would be to hang a plumb bob from any of the points of interest and mark their locations on the floor. Then, move the truck and connect the dots. This is essentially what the frame machine does in inspection mode. It makes pretty pictures, too. You'd have to do that part yourself

This is just a sample to use to gauge your interest. LMK

Holy crap, that's a gold mine!

 

[2001LC]

Sometimes, issues are a series of little things. Needing correcting.

Sorry if covered.
If wasn't, pulling before rear impact. Then likely related.
If not pulling before lift. Then likely related.

Axle center to fender measurement, is not FSM method. Is a quick & dirty measurement. It's not very useful if any accident. I'm super accurate on my measurements. Once front cross leveled and dead-on to within 1/64" (best my eyes can see). Rears should be exactly same heights. If not, sometime is bent.

Since rear impact, bent rear crossmember and lateral control arm. Very likely bent rear frame rails. The impact looks minior, but still parts are bent.
Adjustable lateral control arm, would be good cheap test and possible fix. But since rear impact may have bent frame. The quick a dirty measurement form frame to wheel, to set lateral adjustment, may be unreliable. I'd want a good 4 wheel drive shop, to do alignment. First cross leveling front (T-bars), adjust front height (T-bars) then adjusting lateral control arm. See if they can zero your thrust angle. The rear controls, also need a hard look.

Once rear wheels tracking dead on with front wheels. If still pulling. I'd be looking at front lower control arms bushing and steering knuckles.

As I mentioned, in earlier post. I've found where LCA #2 bushing, required extra spacers so that LCA fit on relaxed. Once done, vehicle stop pulling. I've seen this a few times now. Each case, there was signs of some frontal impact.


Steering knuckle are a heavy piece of iron. But they do get bent, by impact. Alignment typically corrects minior bend. Bend can be, one more issue, in a chain of issues. Knuckle can be measured on bench. I've found placing a level on tops of where lower and upper ball joints boot seats. Both levels should be on same plane (parallel to the horizon).

Here you can see, the bent knuckle easily by side by side comparison. Also with straight edge reveals bent knuckle. We should have a line from center of LBJ, center of spindle (axle tube) through UBJ.

I've just finished a rather complex ABS alarm issues. I found 7 points in braking system, that were not to spec and needing correcting. ABS is a safety issue and must be spot on. So was worth the effort and expense to correct.

A pull in steering, is a minor nuisance that may wear tires faster. Which may increase tire cost.
If a Daily Driver, I'd correct.
If more of a trail rig, not used much as DD. Perhaps just live with it.

 

[JOSHD]

I have this same issue and was just told by the alignment shop that my steering rack bushings were shot. I've got some Poly bushings on the way to see if that fixes the issue. I am lifted. My front is at 21.5 or so. Also the rear sits at around 23 which is higher than stock. I've read that the lifted rear makes the trackbar sit unlevel thus pulling the rear end more toward the right of the vehicle causing wandering issues. If the poly bushings dont fix it, then I guess I will be installing an Eimkeith rear track bar relocation kit.

Just to follow up. I did get the poly rack bushings installed yesterday and now it barely pulls to right. Steering is more firm and responsive and the return to center is better. I will get it to the alignment shop, but I believe they will be able to get it straight now.

The PCK is still on the list but it will have to wait until I can get some new rear control arms.

 

[Malleus]

Holy crap, that's a gold mine!

LMK if the entire course, either or both, would be something you're interested in and I'll post it/them in the Resources section for you. I have a library of Toyota/Lexus Training courses and cheat sheet pubs that Toyota refers to as Quick Training Guides.

FWIW:

These are all for the 100 series, but I have the 80 and 200 series too.

 

[Mike NXP]

Malleus

• Thanks for posting that info if I decide to go that route. There is definitely some good stuff. I may try to take a few measurements but for now this is lower down on the list just due to lack of vehicle lift, gravel driveway, living in denial that anything is bent
  
  2001LC
• Thanks as well for your troubleshooting flow. The problem is mechanics like you are becoming a rare breed and no one around here will take the time do go that deep, even when I hand them a credit card and say figure it out
• After reviewing all of my service history and notes it looks like the accident was in summer 2019.. Since then I added bumpers, tried out some ARB coils ( which i claimed caused too much sag in the rear), new tires, shocks, and a few alignments without any notes of vehicle pull
• 2 years later in May of 2021 I added the heavy coils. The next line in service history was me throwing all sorts of parts at it like new tires, steering rack, axles, bearings, etc.
• From there on in there are a few alignment attempts all with a complaint of pulling right. So I either didn't notice the pull for 2 years after the accident or it didn't bother me enough to take note of it
• At this point ( back in 2021) the alignment shop blamed by rack bushings and never even mentioned any concerns with the alignment printout numbers, which are similar to my recent attempt. I've just lived with it since but now I'm diving back down the rabbit hole.
  
  
  >> Anyone else out there running the Dobinsons C59-185 coils in the rear?
  >> Any 100 series drivers in the Flathead MT who want to drive this rig and tell me if I'm crazy for chasing this issue or not

The concept of something being bent is still a factor here but again denial and service history are allowing me to put it lower down on the list. My current goal is to regain factory ride height and re-attempt alignment. If it helps, then I will swap out those coils and keep front end lower. IF it doesn't help at all, well then back down the rabbit hole.


** I called the body shop who originally did the work , they are going to check notes to see if they measured for bent frame. Otherwise they said it would only be an hour labor to check it out so thars a solid option

 

[Mike NXP]

Just to follow up. I did get the poly rack bushings installed yesterday and now it barely pulls to right. Steering is more firm and responsive and the return to center is better. I will get it to the alignment shop, but I believe they will be able to get it straight now.

The PCK is still on the list but it will have to wait until I can get some new rear control arms.

Thanks for the follow up

Can you refresh my memory on this. So you have OEM parts up front but were dealing with a right pull? I also feel I have the same symptom, where the wheel doesn't want to spring back center. You swapped both bushings out for polys and next is an alignment? Keep me posted of the results .

What aftermarket bushings did you use?

• Here is a link back to the post of my video showing my rack movement. Indy shop says its fine, alignment shop says its a problem. Me? Not sure how that would affect caster and camber adjustment points.
  
  
• I should also note, that I have like 5 degrees of dead play in my steering wheel. With the vehicle parked ( or driving ) I can wiggle my steering wheel a little bit with no reaction in the tires. Add that up with the right hand pull and a fully loaded truck and you have a bit of an nuisance at highway speeds. I brought it to Toyota and Indy shop in the past for the wheel play and they all just tell me "its fine" ( I hate that response )

 

[JOSHD]

Thanks for the follow up

Can you refresh my memory on this. So you have OEM parts up front but were dealing with a right pull? I also feel I have the same symptom, where the wheel doesn't want to spring back center. You swapped both bushings out for polys and next is an alignment? Keep me posted of the results .

What aftermarket bushings did you use?

• Here is a link back to the post of my video showing my rack movement. Indy shop says its fine, alignment shop says its a problem. Me? Not sure how that would affect caster and camber adjustment points.
  
  
• I should also note, that I have like 5 degrees of dead play in my steering wheel. With the vehicle parked ( or driving ) I can wiggle my steering wheel a little bit with no reaction in the tires. Add that up with the right hand pull and a fully loaded truck and you have a bit of an nuisance at highway speeds. I brought it to Toyota and Indy shop in the past for the wheel play and they all just tell me "its fine" ( I hate that response )

I used Nolathane rack bushings. I watched a Youtube video by user ChowCares on the bushing replacement and these are what he used. I also hear Whiteline is a good brand. I do not have stock suspension but I do have a a larger than factory rake like you do. My front is 21.5 and the rear is 23 and 3/8. I believe the factory rake is more along the lines of .75 to 1 inch.

For the deadplay in the steering, check the linkage that connects the wheel to the rack. Someone posted that they found a bolt loose that caused this.

 

[hoser]

I didn't read the entire thread but.... yes, the rear height (in relation to the front height) does affect caster. You have 3-3.5" of rake. Your caster is not in spec. I would aim towards the upper end for caster personally but that would likely mean aftermarket UCA's. Look into "No Lift" rear springs by calling Cruiser Outfitters or Slee.

Tires though balanced can also have a pull. A shop with a Road Force machine can determine pull and rebalance the tires and/or place the tires accordingly on your 100 to reduce or eliminate tire pull.