Information needed for front end alignment (1 Viewer)

[SteveH]

@Mike NXP - I'm bummed for you, because my '99 has 336K, and drives solid as a rock. New OEM rack (with a new OEM 'D' bushing) and inner/outer TREs, and new LBJs, and literally everything else is factory. No pulling or play - steering is incredibly tight - tracks like its on rails.

A printout (as you said you were getting) from the alignment shop may be helpful, but didn't you say it was hit from behind in post #9? Maybe you can find a 'frame shop' (not an alignment shop) and have them check the frame for a bend?

 

[Mike NXP]

** Posted this draft by accident... printout and measurements coming soon**


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[JOSHD]

I have this same issue and was just told by the alignment shop that my steering rack bushings were shot. I've got some Poly bushings on the way to see if that fixes the issue. I am lifted. My front is at 21.5 or so. Also the rear sits at around 23 which is higher than stock. I've read that the lifted rear makes the trackbar sit unlevel thus pulling the rear end more toward the right of the vehicle causing wandering issues. If the poly bushings dont fix it, then I guess I will be installing an Eimkeith rear track bar relocation kit.

 

[Trapper50cal]

I have this same issue and was just told by the alignment shop that my steering rack bushings were shot. I've got some Poly bushings on the way to see if that fixes the issue. I am lifted. My front is at 21.5 or so. Also the rear sits at around 23 which is higher than stock. I've read that the lifted rear makes the trackbar sit unlevel thus pulling the rear end more toward the right of the vehicle causing wandering issues. If the poly bushings dont fix it, then I guess I will be installing an Eimkeith rear track bar relocation kit.

I think you could also solve that with an adjustable panhard bar. You just make it a touch longer and it recanters the rear axle under the truck.

 

[LJE]

I think you could also solve that with an adjustable panhard bar. You just make it a touch longer and it recanters the rear axle under the truck.

I believe that would just be a bandaid vs fixing the panhard bar angle via a PCK (though, this isn't @Mike NXP 's issue here since he's stock height).

The geometry of having an angled track bar is still going to be in play with an extended/adjustable panhard bar - as the rear suspension cycles the axle is going to move side-to-side.

 

[Trapper50cal]

I believe that would just be a bandaid vs fixing the panhard bar angle via a PCK (though, this isn't @Mike NXP 's issue here since he's stock height).

The geometry of having an angled track bar is still going to be in play with an extended/adjustable panhard bar - as the rear suspension cycles the axle is going to move side-to-side.

Agreed, but...how much articulation occurs at highway speeds? Or any regular road use? I never really bought into the practical necessity of relocation as 99.9% of what is being solved for is road use with little to no articulation. And the amounts of movement when articulation comes into play is nearly infinitesimal. But like you say, not the issue with Mike's situation.

 

[Mike NXP]

Thanks everyone for the real world feedback and replies

Updates + alignment printout below

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Cross level & rake - Trying my best to measure from center hub to fender but there is some room for error
Vehicle with no weight in rear end.
FR - Just under 20"
FL - Just over 20"
RR - About 23 1/2"
RL - About 23"

• This is a bit higher than the stock measurements 2001LC posted so apparently I have quite a bit of lift with no weight.

+ 320lbs of sad bags added to the trunk space
FR and FL - No noticeable change
RR and RL - Dropped about 1"

• I might add more weight and try to get rake within an inch from front and then test ride

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Suspension setup
Front end - newish Toyota OEM shocks with a bit of a twist on the torsion bar to help with bumper + winch weight
Rear end - Dobinson's shocks and CP-185 coils rated for 440lbs additional lbs and + 1-2" lift
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"Is vehicle body/frame tracking in same line as tires. Or does it crab down the road."

• Well apparently I do have a bit of a crab walk going on according to the alignment tech. Check out the rear end numbers on that printout. However I was told the numbers show the rear end pointing a bit left and doesn't explain the right pull

" camber max"

• My understanding from the alignment tech is that they spent a few hours working caster and tweaking camber to get as close to spec as possible, but this is the best result they can get.
  >> I wonder if the rear end height affects how much adjustment you can get out of the front end?

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Next steps???

• The alignment shop told me to add some weight to the vehicle and come back if I'd like to see if that changes anything
• The indy shop is sort of out of ideas. They suggested to not install the adjustable uppers as thats not a proper fix.
• Otherwise I am stumped

I was told the first go around was way worse and was apparently due to the recent ball joint + bearing preload adjustment. These before measurements were after there first adjustments

Pics from accident + bent panhard bar. Only pics I have from the day

• Hit at red light but sort of went under the truck . Damaged cross member, spare tire pushed into panhard, panhard bar bent, muffler bent. Heater t's started leaking from the impact
• All parts replaced by Toyota with oem
• This was in 2019 about 50k miles ago but I really can't remember when the pulling right issues started.

 

[Mike NXP]

I'm not sure if the focus here should be adjusting vehicle rake, but just for reference here are my weights below when we are loaded for camping.

• Stock weight appears to be 5,115 according to the Google. I was surprised to see that somehow I've got an additioanl 1800lbs or so additional payload

Adding up the weight

• Rear bumper / swingouts - 10gal fuel, small propane tank, spare tire, sometimes 4 gal water tank
  = Maybe 130lbs of gear + bumper weight about 150?
• Trunk space - All misc camping, cooking, recovery, sleeper platform, coolers, dog, mattress.
  = IDK I'd guess 350lbs tops but with all rear seats removed it should be a wash
• Roof - 8 gal water tank, maxtrax, chain saw, dry bags
  = Estimated at 150lbs + rack weight
• Front bumper - ARB + 12k winch
  = maybe 200lb

 

[SteveH]

Thanks for all the great additional info.

Am I right in seeing your 'after' caster as -1.5 on one side and +1.9 on the other? I can't imagine that makes for happy front wheels....can the shop explain why they can't get it the same?

 

[Mike NXP]

Am I right in seeing your 'after' caster as -1.5 on one side and +1.9 on the other? I can't imagine that makes for happy front wheels....can the shop explain why they can't get it the same?

For sure, that is the current measurement.

The alignment guy explained this better than I can but I recall him explaining it like this ; the more he would adjust caster to get it to center, the more that would throw camber out of spec / not allow for enough adjustment to get within spec.... So the only way to get camber within spec was to tweak the caster like he did.
>> Hopefully I am relaying the info right

What do you make of that rear end toe being off by so much?
>> I was reading another forum here, the guy has less toe out than I have but someone said this
"Driver rear tire pointing outwards, or probably should say the whole rear axle is pointing towards the driver. The rear axle thrust angle is steering the rear axle towards the driver. Since rear steer works in reverse, the perceived impact is that the car will steer towards passenger/right."



This guy here has a bit of toe out in the rear end but says vehicle still tracks straight. However his camber is looking better than mine

 

[jLB]

Cross level & rake - Trying my best to measure from center hub to fender but there is some room for error
Vehicle with no weight in rear end.
FR - Just under 20"
FL - Just over 20"
RR - About 23 1/2"
RL - About 23"

~0.5” lift in front, ~2.5” lift in rear. Possibly rear coils are reversed, taller coil usually goes on the US driver side, due to the location of the gas tank.

The caster vs camber trade off is what usually pushes people with a mild lift, toward aftermarket front UCAs, either adjustable (SPC), or a fixed added caster (Nitro, Dobinsons, Trail Tailor, etc). Too little caster usually feels “nervous”, requiring lots of little corrections to go straight, even worse when the steering rack bushings are worn, causing some slack in the corrections.

What condition are the rear control arm bushings in?

 

[gnob]

the front numbers look good, even if the caster is a little low. they set it for some left for road crown.

the rear thrust is a little much imo.
i second looking at control atms and bushings.
i don't really look like the negative camber on the rr, it should be zero and that will want to push the rear to the left as well

 

[Mike NXP]

~0.5” lift in front, ~2.5” lift in rear. Possibly rear coils are reversed, taller coil usually goes on the US driver side, due to the location of the gas tank.

The caster vs camber trade off is what usually pushes people with a mild lift, toward aftermarket front UCAs, either adjustable (SPC), or a fixed added caster (Nitro, Dobinsons, Trail Tailor, etc). Too little caster usually feels “nervous”, requiring lots of little corrections to go straight, even worse when the steering rack bushings are worn, causing some slack in the corrections.

What condition are the rear control arm bushings in?

Ah ok , good info. Its starting to make sense. I wouldn't describe my symptoms as a nervous or twitchy feeling. Its all tight and smooth,just requires a constant few degrees of left pull on the steering wheel
The second I left off pressure she drifts towards the ditch.

The Indy shop told me the rear lower arms are solid. They said the upper arms have some slight side to side play but they arent knocking around. They did suggest replacing them but was hard for them to say if any of my symptoms will change

I dont have big tires or any need for a lift, my original goal was just to support my additional payload of bumpers and cargo

 

[Malleus]

So, just to be clear, you still have the factory bushings in the front upper and lower control arms?

 

[Mike NXP]

So, just to be clear, you still have the factory bushings in the front upper and lower control arms?

Yeah for sure. Original control arms and bushings front and rear.

I dont really know how to check them but alignment + indy shop claim the front end bushings and parts feel tight but the rear uppers have some play

Im just having trouble making sense of rear control arms translating to a consistent pull ...I could see if it felt sloppy.

I went on the wrong side of pretty crowned road yesterday and let off the wheel and it drove me right up and over back to the right side

 

[Malleus]

I can't say what impact the front control arm bushings are having on your steering, but I'd say it's a fair bet they're gone at this point. Nothing lasts forever.

I'm replacing the entire front suspension on a 2000 LX470 with 300k on it right now. All the rubber is well past its functional life. I chose to replace the control arms with Toyota OEM, rather than take a chance on either 555 rubber or some other aftermarket poly bushings.

I may have missed this reading through the posts, but have you have the frame on a rack and verified that it's still straight? I had an 80 that had the same rear end collision, with a Miata, and it only scratched the paint on the trailer hitch, but it's worth asking - if it wasn't addressed somewhere in here already.

 

[jLB]

Im just having trouble making sense of rear control arms translating to a consistent pull ...I could see if it felt sloppy.

On my 99 LX, the best way I can describe the feeling of (all) bad rear control arm bushings, is it felt like a toolbox sliding back and forth, in the rear, during turns.

If one side is worse that the other, I’d expect more of a constant pull.

 

[Mike NXP]

I can't say what impact the front control arm bushings are having on your steering, but I'd say it's a fair bet they're gone at this point. Nothing lasts forever.

I agree that they can't still be doing their job after all these years but the mechanics keep telling me they check out.
>> That being said, as I continue to throw parts at this I have a feeling front and rear control arms may be on the list. I'd like to get the vehicle as OEM and stock as possible while safely supporting all the extra weight.

As for the frame being measured, well I don't know for sure but my guess is the body shop didn't even think about measuring anything when it was brought it. They just racked up as big of an invoice as possible to fix all the visible damage and then left me to fight with the insurance company for many months.

On my 99 LX, the best way I can describe the feeling of (all) bad rear control arm bushings, is it felt like a toolbox sliding back and forth, in the rear, during turns.

Hmm hard to say, I don't think I have much of a slop feeling when taking a turn. I drive this thing pretty damn slow and steady, like a loaded dump truck not trying to spill an open coffee. Slow turns and really just easy going all around. I do have a lot of off road washboard and rough terrain miles on it though


Part pricing really isn't all that bad for the rear uppers. Maybe I get those done on my own but I don't have the skill to get the fronts replaced. Also still thinking about different coils to lower me a bit, maybe the next step down in the Dobinsons options.


>> Will replacing upper arms help the rear toe out problem
>> Does that do anything to solve the original problem of the alignment

Hard to say

 

[jLB]

On two of mine, regardless of vendor, the dual rate coils seem to address the “low lift”, but “able to accept a load” without excessive height, unloaded.

 

[Malleus]

I'd take it to a competent frame shop and have the frame verified before I put any more money in it, if it was mine.

Having said that, there's no way to verify the bushings are able to pass the service manual checks if they're installed. So, if they haven't removed the control arms, they're just guessing.