Help! She died today and won't turn over -UPDATE it's a spun bearing

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bobm said:
Sending unit is by your oil filter.
Click to expand...
I have an odd ball oil filter set up that I think was due to the power steering conversion maybe? The oil filter is mounted to the driver side engine bay and has hoses that run to the block. So maybe where the hoses go into the block?

oil filter.jpg
 
Well I got the oil pan off. No major chunks of metal in the pan or oil. I took the fly wheel bottom cover off too and tried to move the wheel by the teeth with the crow bar and low and behold it moved! It's not totally frozen. I can move it about 2 teeth until it stops moving. I can then move it back the other way about the same distance with pry bar on the teeth until it hits a shard stop. As I moved the fly wheel the crank moves and the pistons are all moving too, but like I said something impedes the movement after just a little distance.

So what does this mean? Something up above like a rod or a valve? Any thoughts what to try next? Here are some images from underneath> Can get more if we need to get a better look at something. I also have a video of me moving the fly wheel I think I'll have to post to youtube and then add the link, which I'm gonna try now.

crank 1.jpg


crank 3.jpg


crank2.jpg
 
Pighead said:
This is, indeed, a mystery.
I think I'd pull the valve cover off to look for obvious damage. If none, and you still can't rotate the crank, then drop the oilpan and look for more obvious damage. If none, then start pulling connecting rods off the crank where you can reach them and inspect the bearings. If you still can't rotate the crank, start taking off main bearing caps until it will.
Conn rod bearings are cheap and easy to replace, if you can turn the crank.
A 3 speed bell housing does fit on a 2F block, in fact a lot of your F engine stuff will fit a 2F block.
It's just another terrific aspect of owning a LandCruiser.
Click to expand...
Just re-read this post and I think I understand now what I need to do next. Thanks again for the direction.

Does the crank moving little bit back and forth and not being completely locked tell us anything? I'm guessing based on what I'm reading and feeling but a spun bearing seems likely....(now that I've know what that means for all of 12 hours :rofl:)
 
Maybe you broke a valve, and you’ll have to pull the head to find out.

I think it’s more likely (esp since it stops rotating both ways), that you had low/no oil pressure and one or more rod and/or main bearings started to go. Maybe some of the disintegrating babbit plugged an oil hole, and that’s why you can’t get oil to the top of the engine. Maybe you spun a bearing and that plugged an oil hole. If this happened on a main, then it could prevent oil getting to the top end of the engine.

Since it seized at (essentially) idle, it is possible that you can recover by removing the rod and main caps and checking the bearings for galling.

(Very important to keep these matched to where they came off!)

For any bad bearings, you can polish the crank journals with 1000 grit silicon carbide paper to remove any babbitt that has transferred from the bearing to the journal(s) and then replace the bearings and torque the caps, replace the oil pan, fill it with oil and spin the pump with a drill again to see if you can get oil up to the rockers.

I have zero experience inside a F engine, but I’m told they’re not very different from the in-line 6 Chevy. For example, I don’t know if the bearings in a F have a tang. These help keep the bearing from spinning but make getting they old one out while the engine is still on the truck more difficult.

Getting the upper bearing out with the crank still mounted in the block can be quite difficult as well. The other issue is that for any cylinder at or near TDC, you really can’t push the piston and rod far enough “away” from the journal to replace the upper half of the bearing.

All in all, at this point it’s probably better to pull the engine out of the truck, get it on an engine stand and turn it upside down. Take the main and rod caps off (be sure these are numbered or number them before you remove them). Now you’ll be able to lift the crankshaft out of the block and look for any scaring or galling. If it’s light, use the emery cloth as above. If it’s heavy, find a machine shop and have them grind the journals. Find out if the bearings are standard or oversized, (you’ll need oversized if the crank goes to the machine shop). Get a front and rear main seal and a new oil pan gasket while you’re at it.

Reassemble, using liberal application of heavy weight motor oil (or sssembly lube, but then you need to be prepared to change the oil soon after it’s back in the truck), making sure to torque the nuts or bolts in sequence and to spec. Put a socket and ratchet or breaker bar on the nut on the crank and see if it turns freely.

If it does, put the pan back on, turn it back upright (still on the engine stand) fill the pan with oil, and spin the pump with your drill.

Once you do get oil the rocker arms, don’t expect much. There is a hole on the top of each rocker arm. As longe as you see oil coming out of that hole, you have adequate oil to the rocker arms....it doesn’t spray out but it is defiantly pumped out. That also looks like a split rocker shaft, the joint is the bulbous looking piece where the copper tube connects. That piece is sealed to the rocker shafts with O-rings....make sure it’s not leaking. Make sure the copper tube isn’t plugged.

If you can’t spin the crank with the socket and ratchet after all that, it’s time to pull the head and see what broke.

(Kinda want to throw the engine stand and hoist in the pickup, grab the torque wrench and head to ABQ to help and have some NewMex. Problem is I’m in CO atm, and that stuff is back in ATX.)
 
Last edited:
Take the belts off and see if all the accessories are not seized.
 
Cgn1976 said:
...I changed the oil less than 1000 miles ago right after I did the valve stem seals...
Click to expand...

roadstr6 said:
You have confirmed that the engine is locked. Next thing I would do is to pull the plugs and look to see if any of them are damaged. A foreign object or broken valve can drop down in a cylinder and beat up a spark plug. Pulling the plugs will make future efforts to turn the engine easier as well. Following the plug removal, take off the valve cover and look for anything suspicious under there. Spin each of the pushrods by hand to make sure there aren't any bent ones. Lever down on each of the valve stems with a big screwdriver to ensure that they push down. If all this passes muster, drain the oil into a clean bucket and strain it for pieces of metal.
Click to expand...

Wow, this is tough spot!
Sorry to hear about this.
I realize I am late to the party, and have not read everything, but I do wonder if your valve stem seal project has anything to do with this?
I will keep reading...
 
gonzopancho said:
Maybe you broke a valve, and you’ll have to pull the head to find out.

I think it’s more likely (esp since it stops rotating both ways), that you had low/no oil pressure and one or more rod and/or main bearings started to go. Maybe some of the disintegrating babbit plugged an oil hole, and that’s why you can’t get oil to the top of the engine. Maybe you spun a bearing and that plugged an oil hole. If this happened on a main, then it could prevent oil getting to the top end of the engine.

Since it seized at (essentially) idle, it is possible that you can recover by removing the rod and main caps and checking the bearings for galling.

(Very important to keep these matched to where they came off!)

For any bad bearings, you can polish the crank journals with 1000 grit silicon carbide paper to remove any babbitt that has transferred from the bearing to the journal(s) and then replace the bearings and torque the caps, replace the oil pan, fill it with oil and spin the pump with a drill again to see if you can get oil up to the rockers.

I have zero experience inside a F engine, but I’m told they’re not very different from the in-line 6 Chevy. For example, I don’t know if the bearings in a F have a tang. These help keep the bearing from spinning but make getting they old one out while the engine is still on the truck more difficult.

Getting the upper bearing out with the crank still mounted in the block can be quite difficult as well. The other issue is that for any cylinder at or near TDC, you really can’t push the piston and rod far enough “away” from the journal to replace the upper half of the bearing.

All in all, at this point it’s probably better to pull the engine out of the truck, get it on an engine stand and turn it upside down. Take the main and rod caps off (be sure these are numbered or number them before you remove them). Now you’ll be able to lift the crankshaft out of the block and look for any scaring or galling. If it’s light, use the emery cloth as above. If it’s heavy, find a machine shop and have them grind the journals. Find out if the bearings are standard or oversized, (you’ll need oversized if the crank goes to the machine shop). Get a front and rear main seal and a new oil pan gasket while you’re at it.

Reassemble, using liberal application of heavy weight motor oil (or sssembly lube, but then you need to be prepared to change the oil soon after it’s back in the truck), making sure to torque the nuts or bolts in sequence and to spec. Put a socket and ratchet or breaker bar on the nut on the crank and see if it turns freely.

If it does, put the pan back on, turn it back upright (still on the engine stand) fill the pan with oil, and spin the pump with your drill.

Once you do get oil the rocker arms, don’t expect much. There is a hole on the top of each rocker arm. As longe as you see oil coming out of that hole, you have adequate oil to the rocker arms....it doesn’t spray out but it is defiantly pumped out. That also looks like a split rocker shaft, the joint is the bulbous looking piece where the copper tube connects. That piece is sealed to the rocker shafts with O-rings....make sure it’s not leaking. Make sure the copper tube isn’t plugged.

If you can’t spin the crank with the socket and ratchet after all that, it’s time to pull the head and see what broke.

(Kinda want to throw the engine stand and hoist in the pickup, grab the torque wrench and head to ABQ to help and have some NewMex. Problem is I’m in CO atm, and that stuff is back in ATX.)
Click to expand...

This is solid ^^^.

I still wonder if something went awry during the valve seal replacement project that was recent...

I wonder about removing the rocker assembly. IIRC, you back off the tension on the rocker arm adjusters. I can't remember if that takes ALL tension off the pushrods? That would be ideal. I am pretty sure you have to be able to remove the rocker arm shaft and rockers w/o removing the cam, right?

At that point, all the valves should be seated. If something went awry when replacing the valve stem seals, and one of the valves is stuck, this will be visible now.

You can also inspect the rocker shaft and see if anything is amiss.
 
PabloCruise said:
This is solid ^^^.

I still wonder if something went awry during the valve seal replacement project that was recent...

I wonder about removing the rocker assembly. IIRC, you back off the tension on the rocker arm adjusters. I can't remember if that takes ALL tension off the pushrods? That would be ideal. I am pretty sure you have to be able to remove the rocker arm shaft and rockers w/o removing the cam, right?

At that point, all the valves should be seated. If something went awry when replacing the valve stem seals, and one of the valves is stuck, this will be visible now.

You can also inspect the rocker shaft and see if anything is amiss.
Click to expand...
I pulled the rocker yesterday. Rods are all free and straight. I pinged the valves with a mallet and they all moved and sprung right back back. Not 100% sure, but I think they are fine. When i did those seals, it was a game changer how much better the engine has been running, but that's probably not burning all that oil that was slipping through.

Not 100% sure what I'm looking for on the rocker but it all seemed in working order, and the o rings mentioned already were in good shape.
 
gonzopancho said:
Maybe you broke a valve, and you’ll have to pull the head to find out.

I think it’s more likely (esp since it stops rotating both ways), that you had low/no oil pressure and one or more rod and/or main bearings started to go. Maybe some of the disintegrating babbit plugged an oil hole, and that’s why you can’t get oil to the top of the engine. Maybe you spun a bearing and that plugged an oil hole. If this happened on a main, then it could prevent oil getting to the top end of the engine.

Since it seized at (essentially) idle, it is possible that you can recover by removing the rod and main caps and checking the bearings for galling.

(Very important to keep these matched to where they came off!)

For any bad bearings, you can polish the crank journals with 1000 grit silicon carbide paper to remove any babbitt that has transferred from the bearing to the journal(s) and then replace the bearings and torque the caps, replace the oil pan, fill it with oil and spin the pump with a drill again to see if you can get oil up to the rockers.

I have zero experience inside a F engine, but I’m told they’re not very different from the in-line 6 Chevy. For example, I don’t know if the bearings in a F have a tang. These help keep the bearing from spinning but make getting they old one out while the engine is still on the truck more difficult.

Getting the upper bearing out with the crank still mounted in the block can be quite difficult as well. The other issue is that for any cylinder at or near TDC, you really can’t push the piston and rod far enough “away” from the journal to replace the upper half of the bearing.

All in all, at this point it’s probably better to pull the engine out of the truck, get it on an engine stand and turn it upside down. Take the main and rod caps off (be sure these are numbered or number them before you remove them). Now you’ll be able to lift the crankshaft out of the block and look for any scaring or galling. If it’s light, use the emery cloth as above. If it’s heavy, find a machine shop and have them grind the journals. Find out if the bearings are standard or oversized, (you’ll need oversized if the crank goes to the machine shop). Get a front and rear main seal and a new oil pan gasket while you’re at it.

Reassemble, using liberal application of heavy weight motor oil (or sssembly lube, but then you need to be prepared to change the oil soon after it’s back in the truck), making sure to torque the nuts or bolts in sequence and to spec. Put a socket and ratchet or breaker bar on the nut on the crank and see if it turns freely.

If it does, put the pan back on, turn it back upright (still on the engine stand) fill the pan with oil, and spin the pump with your drill.

Once you do get oil the rocker arms, don’t expect much. There is a hole on the top of each rocker arm. As longe as you see oil coming out of that hole, you have adequate oil to the rocker arms....it doesn’t spray out but it is defiantly pumped out. That also looks like a split rocker shaft, the joint is the bulbous looking piece where the copper tube connects. That piece is sealed to the rocker shafts with O-rings....make sure it’s not leaking. Make sure the copper tube isn’t plugged.

If you can’t spin the crank with the socket and ratchet after all that, it’s time to pull the head and see what broke.

(Kinda want to throw the engine stand and hoist in the pickup, grab the torque wrench and head to ABQ to help and have some NewMex. Problem is I’m in CO atm, and that stuff is back in ATX.)
Click to expand...
Thanks everyone for helping. Gonzo...that was a serious post! Thanks for the all the insight and guidance. Not sure I'm up for all that by myself, although I think I could manage some of it. Also I only have an outdoor workspace and with winter around the corner and no easy way to get an engine from the side of my house and into the garage (hills, steps, etc). I have spoken to some folks who may be able to help on a space but I'm honestly not sure I can break away from the family and work nearly enough hours to pull this off if it's not right here at the house.

Over the next week I'll start cracking into the bearings and see what's what. Maybe there's a chance I can do those and try the "band aid" new bearings option and see how that goes, assuming things look like that would even make sense. Clearly it seems like I have some oil flow issues too. The more I think about it, the idea of a rebuilt 2F or one in solid shape is sounding comforting. I'm selling some land my mother left me and should end up with the means to do this pretty soon.

Whitey, I guess I should have tried the crank while spinning the pump, although I think I'm glad I opened the pan I found the oil not reaching the rockers. As I pulled the pan and got it cleaned up after I posted yesterday, there was some muddy, thick goop at the bottom of the pan. I cleaned it all out but had me thinking this stuff, whatever it was, was problematic for sure. Could see it clogging the oil lines to the rocker.

Anyway, again thanks to all. I'll see if I can make some progress this week a post on it.
 
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