GVWR upgrade for 200 series

[grinchy]

You can make moderate changes to your front spring rate easily with spring rubbers. Though I have an LX, the front bumper had a similar negative effect. Which was easily and cheaply remedied by spring rubbers. You can increase the spring rate around 12% with the stiffest option, so from 500 to 560 lb inch for the stock tlc front coil.

 

[BadReligion]

Yeah, I guess that anyone can sue anyone for anything. I’m not advocating for everyone to do whatever they want. Just want to inject some reality into this internet myth that driving over the door jamb numbers gets you heavy fines or an insurance denial if you happen to get into an accident.

What law exactly is broken by being overweight? Is there some kind of different level of negligence that applies to being overweight vs being distracted or falling asleep or simply just getting into an accident? It would be just as easy to argue that the driver knew he was extremely tired and drove anyway, or he knew that looking at his phone puts himself and everyone else on the road around him at higher risk but he did it anyway…what makes being over GVWR especially negligent?

The way I understand it, the door jamb numbers on a personal vehicle with a GCWR under 26k lbs are not subject to the same DOT standards and CDL requirements as those above.

I would agree that there is a lot of "gray" area on this, but my point is not about insurance denial or fines, but liability. This event happened locally last year and I drove by it 30 minutes after it happened. No news report was released yet, but I could tell from the carnage that there were multiple fatalities and serious injuries. It was pretty traumatic to witness.

NHP: Driver charged after overweight boat, brake failure caused fatal Carson City crash

The driver of a pickup hauling a large boat has been charged after he ran through an intersection, killing two and injuring nine others in Carson City, NHP said.

www.rgj.com

Short version is that someone exceeded the GVWR by 100%, killed people, seriously injured several others, and was not impaired. He is currently in prison. This is not an insurance issue.

Take speeding for example. You go 10-20% over the limit and no one will bother you. Get in an accident, and it is "just" and accident. But exceed the speed limit by 50% plus, and now you can be subject to both criminal and civil negligence for the harm you caused. Towing 10,000 - 12,000 lbs with a properly set up 200 is probably not an issue, but if you push it beyond that you are now much more likely to face serious consequences if something goes wrong. That's all I'm trying to say. Proceed at your own risk.

 

[jaco11b]

Show me a Tacoma with any mods and I’ll show you a Tacoma that’s over GVWR

 

[LX Cruiser]

I would agree that there is a lot of "gray" area on this, but my point is not about insurance denial or fines, but liability. This event happened locally last year and I drove by it 30 minutes after it happened. No news report was released yet, but I could tell from the carnage that there were multiple fatalities and serious injuries. It was pretty traumatic to witness.

NHP: Driver charged after overweight boat, brake failure caused fatal Carson City crash

The driver of a pickup hauling a large boat has been charged after he ran through an intersection, killing two and injuring nine others in Carson City, NHP said.

www.rgj.com

Short version is that someone exceeded the GVWR by 100%, killed people, seriously injured several others, and was not impaired. He is currently in prison. This is not an insurance issue.

Take speeding for example. You go 10-20% over the limit and no one will bother you. Get in an accident, and it is "just" and accident. But exceed the speed limit by 50% plus, and now you can be subject to both criminal and civil negligence for the harm you caused. Towing 10,000 - 12,000 lbs with a properly set up 200 is probably not an issue, but if you push it beyond that you are now much more likely to face serious consequences if something goes wrong. That's all I'm trying to say. Proceed at your own risk.

I read about that story. That guy was breaking the law the second he entered a public roadway because he was driving a load well in excess of a 26k GCWR, which requires a CDL. He also didn’t hook up that 19-ton boat trailer’s brakes, which is why the truck’s brakes melted. Terrible story.

I think we mostly agree; I just read too many people saying you’re going to jail or will have a denied insurance claim if you’re towing a load that puts your personal rig over payload. Others have thrown this case out as an example, but like you said, it falls wildly outside the context of 200 series trucks and 8k lb trailers.

 

[TeCKis300]

There is no meaningful legal pathway to a GVM upgrade in the states unless perhaps working with an upfitter. Of which I don't know of one that really exist for the 200-series.

Technically, it's surely possible, if Australian options are anything to go by. It's a configuration supposedly validated by engineers for the 200-series platform to support up to 9250lbs vehicle weight, or 17,200lbs combined rig weight with trailer. With just a suspension upgrade with higher rate coil springs and shocks.

I would suggest also paying attention to brakes. For a pre-16 cruiser, recommend upgrading to larger rotors/brakes. Either 2016+ caliper and rotors, or tundra calipers or rotors. Uprated pads might be a great alternative or additional option as well.

From my experience, the cooling and transmission system are up to the task.

 

[Boston Mangler]

I think a lot more goes into GVWR than most people realize.

Adding stiffer springs, so rig doesnt squat when loaded is just a band aid. As are most fixes.

I speak from first hand experience with my 2014 Tundra and some expensive lessons learned the hard way.

At the end of the day, it wasnt the right tool for the job, regardless how much i loved it, and how much $ i threw at it

Truck had a FWC, 46 gallon fuel tank. and 2 spares on the back. Was about 900-1000lbs over GVWR (which i knew)

Upgraded brakes, springs, air bags, bla bla bla, all the usual stuff to handle more weight.

In 100k miles of 75/25 on/offroad driving, i went through:

3 sets of rotors
3 sets of front lower control arms
2 sets of steering rack bushings (wow do those suck to replace)
2 rear wheel bearings

These really arent standard maintenance items. These wore prematurely due to being overloaded.

As @TeCKis300 said, the cooling and transmission system, never once gave me a single hiccup and it never ran outside of the norm temps.

If you're going to run overloaded, keep an eye on suspension wear components and wheel bearings!!!

Just adding stiffer springs isnt fixing anything

 

[LX Cruiser]

Truck had a FWC, 46 gallon fuel tank. and 2 spares on the back. Was about 900-1000lbs over GVWR (which i knew)

Did you ever go to the CAT scales? I’m curious what weights were over each axle.

In Australia, they’ll certify you for 9200lb GVWR in a 200 series (stock GVWR of 7275 lb) just with new springs and armor.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Did you ever go to the CAT scales? I’m curious what weights were over each axle.

In Australia, they’ll certify you for 9200lb GVWR in a 200 series (stock GVWR of 7275 lb) just with new springs and armor.

I did…

Stock GVWR was 7200ish
I was at 8350 when 100% loaded with 2 adults for a week of camping

Off the top of my head I don’t remember front to back weights, but it was definitely rear biased by a fair amount with the camper and dual spares. It didn’t help FWC was very misleading with their weights and mine was 500lbs over what their build tag claimed.

I learned my lesson and here is my Cat Scale ticket in the new build:

GVWR is 19,500

 

[Boston Mangler]

In Australia, they’ll certify you for 9200lb GVWR in a 200 series (stock GVWR of 7275 lb) just with new springs and armor.

That doesnt make a lick of sense from an engineering stand point, yet i completely believe you.

 

[rlynch356]

There is more to those GVM upgrades in Australia than just Springs... Many of them have to be done pre-1st registration for instance and certified by their DOT or what ever its called.
some of the kits for the post -registration GMV upgrades are quite extensive.

We really don't have an option for a GVM upgrade in the states, at least a legal recognized one that I am aware of... I could totally be wrong as well.

 

[Boston Mangler]

We really don't have an option for a GVM upgrade in the states, at least a legal recognized one that I am aware of... I could totally be wrong as well.

Earthroamer puts stickers on theirs claiming their huge campers are now 22,500 or something of that nature.

Many people have tried to figure out how they do this or if it’s legit and no one has ever found out how or even if it’s legal. Random FYI

 

[LX Cruiser]

There is more to those GVM upgrades in Australia than just Springs... Many of them have to be done pre-1st registration for instance and certified by their DOT or what ever its called.
some of the kits for the post -registration GMV upgrades are quite extensive.

We really don't have an option for a GVM upgrade in the states, at least a legal recognized one that I am aware of... I could totally be wrong as well.

The 9200 lb GVM upgrade kit is basically springs, shocks, and armor: GVM/GCM Upgrade - Landcruiser 200 Series | Lovells - https://www.lovellscampbellfield.com.au/toyota-landcruiser-200-gvm-upgrade

 

[Boston Mangler]

The 9200 lb GVM upgrade kit is basically springs, shocks, and armor: GVM/GCM Upgrade - Landcruiser 200 Series | Lovells - https://www.lovellscampbellfield.com.au/toyota-landcruiser-200-gvm-upgrade

Thats all fine and dandy, but that does nothing to address the additional weight stresses on brakes, steering/suspension components

I'll stand by my statement!

 

[linuxgod]

Thats all fine and dandy, but that does nothing to address the additional weight stresses on brakes, steering/suspension components

I'll stand by my statement!

GVM is really a safety thing. The government (US or Australian) doesn't care if your ball joints wear out every 10k miles, they only care that you can safely stop and handle emergency maneuvers at the max weight. If going over GVWR means you have to replace your steering rack or tie rod after 30k miles that's ok so long as the added weight doesn't cause the components to catastrophically fail.

In fairness I think you can add 1000# of weight and not worry about the brakes and drivetrain stress at least. The LC manual says if you pull a trailer which is above 1000# it should have trailer brakes, but below 1000# brakes aren't required. If the LC can handle an extra 1000# of trailered weight over and above GVWR, the implication is that the drivetrain and brakes are up to the task regardless of where the weight is located.

Now that said, the above doesn't mean the suspension, steering rack, bearings, etc won't wear out sooner. It doesn't mean the wheels or tires are rated to carry the extra 1000# in the vehicle either - remember the above is weight you're pulling which has its own suspension. And to the larger GVM upgrade, it also doesn't imply that 9200# is necessarily ok, as the above is 1000# over GVWR (so ~8300#). At some point you've most certainly exceeded the safety margins baked into all of the engineering calculations

 

[Boston Mangler]

GVM is really a safety thing. The government (US or Australian) doesn't care if your ball joints wear out every 10k miles, they only care that you can safely stop and handle emergency maneuvers at the max weight. If going over GVWR means you have to replace your steering rack or tie rod after 30k miles that's ok so long as the added weight doesn't cause the components to catastrophically fail.

In fairness I think you can add 1000# of weight and not worry about the brakes and drivetrain stress at least. The LC manual says if you pull a trailer which is above 1000# it should have trailer brakes, but below 1000# brakes aren't required. If the LC can handle an extra 1000# of trailered weight over and above GVWR, the implication is that the drivetrain and brakes are up to the task regardless of where the weight is located.

Now that said, the above doesn't mean the suspension, steering rack, bearings, etc won't wear out sooner. It doesn't mean the wheels or tires are rated to carry the extra 1000# in the vehicle either - remember the above is weight you're pulling which has its own suspension. And to the larger GVM upgrade, it also doesn't imply that 9200# is necessarily ok, as the above is 1000# over GVWR (so ~8300#). At some point you've most certainly exceeded the safety margins baked into all of the engineering calculations

Well said Sir and valid point! Completely agree!

I am just trying to point out the other side of it and make sure folks are aware.

 

[linuxgod]

Well said Sir and valid point! Completely agree!

I am just trying to point out the other side of it and make sure folks are aware.

The other thing to keep in mind for folks reading this is that GVWR and GAWR are different, and so you have be careful not to overload one axle (typically the rear) even though you may be within the total weight rating.

In any case I'd generally agree, even if you had one of those Lovell's 9200# GVM kits, I'd agree I'm not sure the rest of the truck is really up to the task if your goal is to run hundreds of thousands of miles. For those cases you should probably look at kits with drivetrain upgrades as well like the JCMAX which has a reinforced rear diff. Or just drive it til it breaks and then replace with stronger components, I suppose.

 

[LX Cruiser]

Thats all fine and dandy, but that does nothing to address the additional weight stresses on brakes, steering/suspension components

I'll stand by my statement!

I don’t think that anyone is saying that carrying a lot of extra weight won’t make OEM parts like brakes, bushings, etc. wear out faster. But, knowing that the Aussies will certify a 200 series for that much weight with only shocks, springs, and armor tells me that there is some considerable margin baked into this platform.

This is nice because I can modify the 200 to handle more weight without needing to get a giant HD truck that is worse off road and far less maneuverable and doesn’t have fulltime 4wd (not that there’s anything wrong with running an HD truck).

A 200 series just does so many different things so well. I can mod it and use it as a tow rig, trail rig, and 8-seater daily driver.

 

[TeCKis300]

I did…

Stock GVWR was 7200ish
I was at 8350 when 100% loaded with 2 adults for a week of camping

Off the top of my head I don’t remember front to back weights, but it was definitely rear biased by a fair amount with the camper and dual spares. It didn’t help FWC was very misleading with their weights and mine was 500lbs over what their build tag claimed.

I learned my lesson and here is my Cat Scale ticket in the new build:

GVWR is 19,500

View attachment 3285873

LOL, and I had guessed 10k?! We need a pic of your end-of-earth-roamer.

I find the gross weight here pretty interesting as that's spitting distance of my fully laden weight. Albeit carried on 2 more axles with a travel trailer. Here's my scaled and derived weights, against ratings.

Steer Axle: 3,120 lbs (Front GAWR 3,595lbs)
Rear Axle: 5,460 lbs (Rear GAWR 4,300lbs)
LX: 8,580 lbs (GVWR 7,385lbs)
Payload: ~2,200 lbs (Rated 1,411 lbs)
Trailer axles: 7,040 lbs (Trailer GAWR 7,600 lbs)
Tongue: ~1,200 lbs (Rated 850 lbs)
Trailer Gross: ~8,250 lbs (Rated 8,500 lbs, *2009)
GCWR: 15,620 lbs (GCWR 14,920)

I'm over on several specs. I figure when towing on smooth freeways, it's not creating the dynamic forces seen offroad for which most ratings will be rated for on an 200-series. I'll unhitch and unload before doing the offroad things at which point I'm closer to stock weights. With lots of miles under my belt, I'm pretty confident in the LX to bear these loads.

The steer axle looks light relative to the rear axle when statically measured on the scale, but AHC helps me here in that I can run hitch weight distribution (WD) loser, and because AHC lowers at freeway speeds, effectively further tensions WD, transferring more load to the front axle and trailer axles for balance and stability.

It all works great. I've done multiple things to manage this weight including bigger brakes, 0W-30 oil, augmented the suspension, regeared (but that's really for 35s), LRA aux tank as she swills gas ~9-10MPG. I've proactively replaced the axle bearing, and saw nothing of concern. About the only things I'll tailor more for weight handing is increasing the transmission cooler size. On extreme climbs, I will see the torque converter go into lockup logic that helps manage heat when it hits 266F pan and 203F coolant temps. Doing what it should do, but I can probably do better here.

 

[Boston Mangler]

LOL, and I had guessed 10k?! We need a pic of your end-of-earth-roamer.

You know what they say: “You Can’t Lose On 42s”

 

[Boston Mangler]

I'm over on several specs. I figure when towing on smooth freeways, it's not creating the dynamic forces seen offroad for which most ratings will be rated for on an 200-series. I'll unhitch and unload before doing the offroad things at which point I'm closer to stock weights. With lots of miles under my belt, I'm pretty confident in the LX to bear these loads.

Excellent, valid, often overlooked point sir!