200 series alternator

[studio19atx]

Does the Tundra part work with 2013 LC/LX?

Tundra part is 27060-0S020 (I read it as 150A)

LC/LX is listed as 27060-38050 (says 180A)

Can the Tundra part be used? Does anyone know the difference?

 

[FrazzledHunter]

Does the Tundra part work with 2013 LC/LX?

Tundra part is 27060-0S020 (I read it as 150A)

LC/LX is listed as 27060-38050 (says 180A)

Can the Tundra part be used? Does anyone know the difference?

If you're looking to replace your factory alternator with an OEM I'd recommend: don't.
My OEM alternator is sitting in the garage verifying gravity.

I'd replace it with something of equal quality and higher amperage.
Alternator upgrade - done! - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/alternator-upgrade-done.1329033/

Disclaimer:
I don't represent M2K/SBC nor do I profit from any endorsements. They're just a great company with a great product IMHO.

 

[OregonLC]

If you're looking to replace your factory alternator with an OEM I'd recommend: don't.

OEM alternators have served me well in four Land Cruisers thus far. Proactively replaced in the 2004 100 at ~ 180k. Proactively replaced in the 200 with ~120k with when the radiator was out.

Even with running a secondary house battery, the 180A output of the factory alternator has not been found to be lacking. The largest DC-DC chargers only pull 50A, well within the output range of the OEM alternator. There may be cold-weather situations were seat heats, defrost, fans, etc. are pulling a high load with insufficient amps to push to the house loads. If this is the case, a proper DC-DC will bias to keeping the vehicle battery from draining.

If the SBC is truly pushing an additional 240A I would take the time to ensure the wiring, connectors, fuse, etc. can also accommodate the same.

Aftermarket alternators may offer the promise of improved output yet without the proven engineering of factory. Perhaps they'll outlast your ownership. Perhaps they'll fail at the worst time and leave you stranded. While enthusiasts have high desire to chase 'better', there needs to be a tangible gain to offset the risk. In my experience, I've not seen any cases where additional amperage would be a real-world gain.

Factory is not an inexpensive part, but it's the way I would go. FWIW.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

OEM alternators have served me well in four Land Cruisers thus far. Proactively replaced in the 2004 100 at ~ 180k. Proactively replaced in the 200 with ~120k with when the radiator was out.

Even with running a secondary house battery, the 180A output of the factory alternator has not been found to be lacking. The largest DC-DC chargers only pull 50A, well within the output range of the OEM alternator. There may be cold-weather situations were seat heats, defrost, fans, etc. are pulling a high load with insufficient amps to push to the house loads. If this is the case, a proper DC-DC will bias to keeping the vehicle battery from draining.

If the SBC is truly pushing an additional 240A I would take the time to ensure the wiring, connectors, fuse, etc. can also accommodate the same.

Aftermarket alternators may offer the promise of improved output yet without the proven engineering of factory. Perhaps they'll outlast your ownership. Perhaps they'll fail at the worst time and leave you stranded. While enthusiasts have high desire to chase 'better', there needs to be a tangible gain to offset the risk. In my experience, I've not seen any cases where additional amperage would be a real-world gain.

Factory is not an inexpensive part, but it's the way I would go. FWIW.

View attachment 3866729

True enough on the wiring upgrade. Forgot to mention that. I did the alternator/engine ground/ground a.k.a. the big 3 with the alternator. Totally agree reliability of aftermarket is of course a concern; the one I installed is made with DENSO parts. But indeed time will tell as to the reliability. My issue was getting high(er) output at low(er) engine RPMs which also necessitated a smaller pulley and shorter serpentine belt.

 

[OregonLC]

Too bad there isn't space to add a 2nd alternator like is offered optional on domestic heavy duty trucks. That would be the best of both worlds; increased output and redundancy.

To the second point, this is a strong case for adding solar. Without 12 volts you're not going anywhere. While MTBF is quite long, a failure would strand a truck. And a field repair on the 200 would not be a fun task, not to mention getting the part to the truck. Adding some switching to allow a DC-DC with a solar input to charge the starting battery would at least get you some intermittent run time. 100W panel at 75% would produce about 6A. Is that enough to run the EFI if everything else is off?

 

[FrazzledHunter]

Too bad there isn't space to add a 2nd alternator like is offered optional on domestic heavy duty trucks. That would be the best of both worlds; increased output and redundancy.

To the second point, this is a strong case for adding solar. Without 12 volts you're not going anywhere. While MTBF is quite long, a failure would strand a truck. And a field repair on the 200 would not be a fun task, not to mention getting the part to the truck. Adding some switching to allow a DC-DC with a solar input to charge the starting battery would at least get you some intermittent run time. 100W panel at 75% would produce about 6A. Is that enough to run the EFI if everything else is off?

M2K/SBC does offer a 2nd and even 3rd (1 or 2 additional independent alternators) alternator kit for the LC 200 and others. It was described to me in detail and one advantage to that approach is that you can leave the OEM wiring alone and permits 12, 24 or 48V implementations. The downside is cost and the necessity for separate battery(ies). It's a perfect solution for things like a Sprinter van but they do offer it for the 3URFE engine.
I almost went this route but instead opted to replace the OEM alternator and upgrade the associated wiring.
REF:
3UR-FE (5.7L Gasoline) | SBC - https://smartbatterycharger.net/product-category/multi-alternator/toyota-multi-alternator-kits/3ur-fe-5-7l-gasoline-toyota-multi-alternator-kits/

 

[Sandroad]

Too bad there isn't space to add a 2nd alternator like is offered optional on domestic heavy duty trucks. That would be the best of both worlds; increased output and redundancy.

To the second point, this is a strong case for adding solar. Without 12 volts you're not going anywhere. While MTBF is quite long, a failure would strand a truck. And a field repair on the 200 would not be a fun task, not to mention getting the part to the truck. Adding some switching to allow a DC-DC with a solar input to charge the starting battery would at least get you some intermittent run time. 100W panel at 75% would produce about 6A. Is that enough to run the EFI if everything else is off?

Interesting question? I do wonder what the EFI needs, but I would make a WAG it’s more than 6A with the pump, ignition, and all the computers that can’t be turned off. Then there’s TPMS, safety sensors and activities, etc. It would be fun to figure out how to measure power needs going down the road.

 

[OregonLC]

M2K/SBC does offer a 2nd and even 3rd (1 or 2 additional independent alternators) alternator kit for the LC 200 and others. It was described to me in detail and one advantage to that approach is that you can leave the OEM wiring alone and permits 12, 24 or 48V implementations. The downside is cost and the necessity for separate battery(ies). It's a perfect solution for things like a Sprinter van but they do offer it for the 3URFE engine.

Now that's an interesting option. Thanks for pointing that out!

From the CAD it looks like there's a plate (yellow) that provides the mounting points. Just trying to visualize where this would physically fit. It looks like it goes under and behind the top radiator hose? There's a reason the OE alt sits down the side of the V so that it doesn't protrude. Unfortunately, no installation media on their website.

There's just not a lot of space in there to fit it. (pic not mine, it's @gaijin )

 

[FrazzledHunter]

So the OP might be wondering if his question will ever get answered LOL!
OP: apologies for the thread derailment.

Still, I'd put in a heavier drop-in alternator for the same amount of installation cost. Sure Toyota OEM is good but there are also other good after market parts (just look at the tens of thousands of posts for suspension mods).

The OEM alternator is rated at 180A so the factory wiring can handle that much. So long as you don't increase your load beyond that you're OK. And if later if you want to upgrade the alternator +, -, and engine ground you can do it for modest $ if you hire a pro like I did. In the mean time you can add nifty electrical stuff and your upgraded alternator will loaf and will likely last forever.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

Now that's an interesting option. Thanks for pointing that out!

From the CAD it looks like there's a plate (yellow) that provides the mounting points. Just trying to visualize where this would physically fit. It looks like it goes under and behind the top radiator hose? There's a reason the OE alt sits down the side of the V so that it doesn't protrude. Unfortunately, no installation media on their website.

View attachment 3867303

There's just not a lot of space in there to fit it. (pic not mine, it's @gaijin )

View attachment 3867305

View attachment 3867308

My original setup was a perfectly fine OEM alternator, REDARC BCDC charger and a Odyssey 55Ah AGM 2nd battery. Alternators require a battery if for nothing else an electrical buffer. A battery functions much like a huge capacitor; it absorbs peaks and fills in valleys. There are situations where you can run battery-less but ours aren't one of them. Modern alternators require battery power to create the electromagnetic field required to generate electricity and incidentally charge the battery. Old old cars used generators had fixed magnets and did not have this limitation. New alternators are also more efficient. This is my understanding, anyway.

So I came very close to tossing the REDARC and getting a single separate alternator paired with my 55Ah Odyssey. From there it got really complicated. This is my understanding:

• Why not 2 alternators?
  • My 2nd 55Ah battery isn't big enough to buffer the higher output.
• What would have been required for 2 alternators?
  • 1-200Ah worth of batteries, lithiums would have been great but I would be housing them in the cargo bay and I didn't want to lose cargo capacity.
• Anything else? Well yeah...
  • There's a general problem with alternators, batteries and varying ancillary loads. Remember that in our cars the main job of the alternator is to recharge the starter battery and then run the car. The extent to which the alternator generates voltage and current is based on the load required to recharge the battery, and in our case, temperature. Colder = more voltage.
  • So, if you have high and low varying loads it can trick the alternator regulator into thinking the battery isn't charged so it compensates by generating more voltage/current thus overcharging the battery.
    • If you have ancillary charging like solar input the reverse can happen: the battery is under charged.
  • A HD alternator can supply a large amount of power and it will be safe but your battery can be inadvertently overcharged. The alternator is safe but the battery isn't. Again, widely varying loads can trick the regulator into over or under charging.
• So what's the answer?
  • The answer is a regulator that splits the battery charging vs supplying load in an intelligent way. Such a regulator is made by Wakespeed. WS500 Advanced Alternator Regulator - Wakespeed - https://www.wakespeed.com/product/ws500-advanced-alternator-regulator/

I could add a Wakespeed to my existing setup but so far it looks like it isn't necessary. I do think that I could be in the high load battery overcharge situation when I start the truck and the 2nd bat is discharged and I have the trailer charging. In time I think my battery will cook and I'll go to Walmart and stick in another.

This is my understanding, anyway.

 

[OregonLC]

I'm not sure I agree with much of this. A properly designed system won't overcharge a battery. Voltage is voltage. If there is load from any source the alternator only sees the resulting voltage and responds accordingly. Seat heat, defrost, fans, lights, etc. all vary and the electrical system load, some of them cyclically, and the system isn't grumpy at all. Allowing the 180A factory alternator to do it's thing is sufficient. The BCDC will prioritize starting battery charge and only take the excess. Similarly, it will monitor the battery it's charging and only deliver what is required for the selected profile. I've installed both a BCDC and Manager 30 and they work seamlessly. You could have a 1000A alternator and it would continue to do it's thing whether charging a 55Ah single or a 300Ah array.

A 100Ah battery is more than sufficient for a Land Cruiser that moves every 3 days. And this will charge in 2-3 hours from empty which is under the typical overlander drive day. I suppose an exception would be using electricity to cook.

If your discussion is regarding using solar as an reduncancy strategy in lieu of a second alternator, then, yes, you would need to have some battery in the system to excite the alternator field. As long as the solar could get the battery above whatever the minimum voltage is for the engine circuits to run then it would act as a surrogate charging source. If the starting battery was truly roached, one could jumper from the house battery to get things going. As @Sandroad suggest, I doubt a 100W panel (6A) would be sufficient. My guess is 200-300W would be required. Though, that doesn't mean a 100W panel would be useless. You'd just need to perform a drive-charge-drive shuffle to allow charging to catch up with consumption.

 

[FrazzledHunter]

I'm not sure I agree with much of this. A properly designed system won't overcharge a battery. Voltage is voltage. If there is load from any source the alternator only sees the resulting voltage and responds accordingly. Seat heat, defrost, fans, lights, etc. all vary and the electrical system load, some of them cyclically, and the system isn't grumpy at all. Allowing the 180A factory alternator to do it's thing is sufficient. The BCDC will prioritize starting battery charge and only take the excess. Similarly, it will monitor the battery it's charging and only deliver what is required for the selected profile. I've installed both a BCDC and Manager 30 and they work seamlessly. You could have a 1000A alternator and it would continue to do it's thing whether charging a 55Ah single or a 300Ah array.

A 100Ah battery is more than sufficient for a Land Cruiser that moves every 3 days. And this will charge in 2-3 hours from empty which is under the typical overlander drive day. I suppose an exception would be using electricity to cook.

If your discussion is regarding using solar as an reduncancy strategy in lieu of a second alternator, then, yes, you would need to have some battery in the system to excite the alternator field. As long as the solar could get the battery above whatever the minimum voltage is for the engine circuits to run then it would act as a surrogate charging source. If the starting battery was truly roached, one could jumper from the house battery to get things going. As @Sandroad suggest, I doubt a 100W panel (6A) would be sufficient. My guess is 200-300W would be required. Though, that doesn't mean a 100W panel would be useless. You'd just need to perform a drive-charge-drive shuffle to allow charging to catch up with consumption.

There's no issue on the other side of a BCDC.
The issue, AFAIK, comes into play with large varying loads. Large varying loads on my starter battery can fake out the alternator regulator into thinking that the battery isn't charged. The alternator will put out too much voltage. If the battery* voltage is 13.5V but the alternator puts out 14.2 then current will flow, no matter what, into the battery but the battery doesn't need it. I think. Right?

This is my understanding as to how a lead acid battery will become overcharged in these circumstances.

EDIT: battery open charge voltage

 

[OregonLC]

There's no issue on the other side of a BCDC.
The issue, AFAIK, comes into play with large varying loads. Large varying loads on my starter battery can fake out the alternator regulator into thinking that the battery isn't charged. The alternator will put out too much voltage. If the battery* voltage is 13.5V but the alternator puts out 14.2 then current will flow, no matter what, into the battery but the battery doesn't need it. I think. Right?

This is my understanding as to how a lead acid battery will become overcharged in these circumstances.

EDIT: battery open charge voltage

If loads were problematic then events like winching would result in battery overcharging. This isn't the case, the system handles the load/unload events without any concern or need to add supplemental controls.