FWIW- I swapped out FPR before my trip West.So this is a prime example of engine (ECT) running to hot and fuel boiling. This is great anecdotal evidence and data. Thanks for posting!
Whereas it not a bad idea to replace radiator. I'd be inclined to first clean the fins of radiator, see what outcome is. I'd also replace radiator cap and thermostat with new OEM.
You may also want to reflush using BG Flush & Cool kit. Make sure you drain block drains and examine flush distilled water for color and practicals. This will yield clues of health of radiator. Use compressed at ~10 PSI ,to blow out system before filling with Toyota coolant. That way you'll get most distilled water out. IIRC 03 is Toyota SLL "Pink". Personally I prefer "Red" LL at 50/50 distilled water. But I stick with whatever Toyota OEM recommends for the year.
I've a 90 degree wand for my HP washer. I blast water from inside out, from between fan blades. I pull #1 skid and washer between all radiators. I blow water in from front also. I repeat and repeat and repeat as many times as it take.
LTFT are what engine is doing to correct STFT. Yours are okay. We see LTFT 2.5 to 5.5 often. Closest to zero is goal of ECU. The 5.5 indicates bank 2 running a little lean (hot). ECU is correnting the baseline of STFT to richen the mixture, in your screen shot.
Radiator fins need cleaning! Alert Alert Alert
I've a 06LC w/192K I just bought. In reading history I found PO complained of engine temp raising when both front and rear AC on. Toyota Dealership diagnosed with clogged radiator fins. Recommended new OEM radiator, $600 for the US spec Radaitor plus coolant and labor. They should have added...forum.ih8mud.com
Now that too is great anecdotal evidence and data. Thanks for posting!
This is what I'd expect to see ECT at. It speaks volumes, as to health of your engine and it's cooling system. Nice JOB! It also show this is not a systemic problem with all 100 and 200 series. Even a heavy aromed like yours. Which is what I'm seeing time and time again with my anecdotal evidence of manly stock rigs.
BTW. Do you have Slee bell pan armor or any brand?
Pressure in tank and atmospheric pressure, is reason I replaced the FPR. But it still just a hunch on my part. Thinking was: FPR may be one more factor in high fuel tank pressure. That to much returning fuel to fast, may overwhelm increasing pressure..
I do agree with you on OAT and blacktop radiant temps. These rigs can handle it, when basic are inline as they should be. Or we see this in every 100 & 200 series and many fires. DOT would have had a field-day! But for sure, OAT and radiant heat does contribute to fuel, cabin and drivetrain temps. But should not ever cause fuel boiling to point of overwhelming EVAP or causes a dangerous condition. At least not on this planet as we know it today!
One only needs to keep up PM as spelled out in OM & FSM. Which also included washing radiator fins, remove dirty & debris. Than this should only be issue if a failure occurs. Which is rare if OM followed, like "do not fill gas tank past auto shut off of pump handle". That was clearly spelled out in the 2003-up OM from Toyota. I'd add, that fuel boil building creating excessive pressure, may damage EVAP components.
My question has always been. Does off road modifying vehicle cause issue with EVAP. By reducing air flow, retaining heat and heavy weights work drivetrain harder.???
But We're seeing rigs like @abuck99 and @guardcompany built. The ECT are just fine. They do not have fuel boiling issues of any concern. One of the most off-road built rig I've ever had the pleasure of working on, belongs to @gungriffin. Yet he has no fuel issue. Interesting, His TRD package, has a 160F thermostat and he run what I'd call too cool for a stock engine.
Whereas @J1000 is indicating he at least had fuel boiling issue, before installing many heatshield in the system, even a fuel cooler. Some cool stuff...But that is a modified fuel system engine and not the norm in most built rigs. His data is valuable, but for very different reason. He points to the many in mud with this issue and engine stalls. In places like LV NV. But the key in all cases: Is the vehicle up to spec with PM. My anecdotal evidence says 90%, of all 100 series are not up to spec. 100 series are so over engineered, they'll keep running under very poor maintenance condition, that would kill most vehicles. But just because it gets down the road, does not mean it's fit. I can assure you, my anecdotal evidence of more 100 series than I can remember inspecting and working on. Most need a lot of work. But then it's the sick ones that come to me the most. Yet even so, most do not have the fuel boiling issue. But all I see are run blended fuels.
Great data, THX!
See there you go; 186 -190f ECT in a heavy climbing passes. A well tuned and maintained heavy built 100 series. No unusual temps issues climbing off road passes at high altitude... Nice job my friend!
So it seems built is not big issue, even with full belly pan. May be adding 3f to ECT. I do recall you did the fan clutch mod. That may be helping you keep ECT in line.
Undoubtedly normal US fuel blend is a factor. But still in properly maintained rig, it really not a factory to be overly concerned with apparently.
You should be able to keep those temps w/both AC running. Max seen even on a hot day up there, IMHO, may 2 or 3 degrees higher. Which is hotter ECT than I'd expect in a full stock rig. But not so much as to overwhelm the EVAP.
Will be interesting to see you swap out FPR. See if that minor tank pressure "Removing the gas cap very warm moist vapor escaped" reduces/improves.
I think it's import he tune this puppy. Tune includes inspecting all lines and coolant system service. I bet I'd find a ton of work to do on this one.
Gas tank building excessive pressure & fuel smell. Dangerous for sure! Why does this happen? (7 Viewers)
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There are a few differences through the years of 100s. Just from looking through posts it seems the early years 98-02ish have problems with too much pressure in the tank (blowing gas out when the cap is removed) and the later 03-07s have a problem with no pressure in the tank whatsoever in any circumstance. There is a big change in the evap system in these years.
I isolated my fuel tank by capping off all lines except for the filler neck and it was leaking out of the black plastic ring that is molded into the filler neck as shown below. NOT the fuel cap, the black plastic ring around the outside! This is where it's leaking end of discussion.
I even used a rubber glove to ensure it wasn't the gas gap itself:
Someone posted earlier about getting vapor pressure through the OBD but I am unable to figure out how to bring it into Torque myself.
My Evap OBD checks have all been completed but still I cannot pressurize my tank even with the slightest amount.
Eyedaho
SILVER Star
There are a few differences through the years of 100s. Just from looking through posts it seems the early years 98-02ish have problems with too much pressure in the tank (blowing gas out when the cap is removed) and the later 03-07s have a problem with no pressure in the tank whatsoever in any circumstance. There is a big change in the evap system in these years.
I isolated my fuel tank by capping off all lines except for the filler neck and it was leaking out of the black plastic ring that is molded into the filler neck as shown below. NOT the fuel cap, the black plastic ring around the outside! This is where it's leaking end of discussion.
I even used a rubber glove to ensure it wasn't the gas gap itself:
Someone posted earlier about getting vapor pressure through the OBD but I am unable to figure out how to bring it into Torque myself.
My Evap OBD checks have all been completed but still I cannot pressurize my tank even with the slightest amount.
So the glove did not look like this?
Seriously though, do you think you need to replace the filler pipe if it's leaking out of that seam?
Just about haha. The filler neck is not cheap I think it's $300+ and no point in buying a used one. I am planning to pull mine off and inspect it. If it's just leaking then I will use my buddy Mr. JB Weld and if it's got a broken valve inside or something I'll go from there.
So this is a prime example of engine (ECT) running to hot and fuel boiling. This is great anecdotal evidence and data. Thanks for posting!
Whereas it not a bad idea to replace radiator. I'd be inclined to first clean the fins of radiator, see what outcome is. I'd also replace radiator cap and thermostat with new OEM.
You may also want to reflush using BG Flush & Cool kit. Make sure you drain block drains and examine flush distilled water for color and practicals. This will yield clues of health of radiator. Use compressed at ~10 PSI ,to blow out system before filling with Toyota coolant. That way you'll get most distilled water out. IIRC 03 is Toyota SLL "Pink". Personally I prefer "Red" LL at 50/50 distilled water. But I stick with whatever Toyota OEM recommends for the year.
I've a 90 degree wand for my HP washer. I blast water from inside out, from between fan blades. I pull #1 skid and washer between all radiators. I blow water in from front also. I repeat and repeat and repeat as many times as it take.
LTFT are what engine is doing to correct STFT. Yours are okay. We see LTFT 2.5 to 5.5 often. Closest to zero is goal of ECU. The 5.5 indicates bank 2 running a little lean (hot). ECU is correnting the baseline of STFT to richen the mixture, in your screen shot.
Radiator fins need cleaning! Alert Alert Alert
I've a 06LC w/192K I just bought. In reading history I found PO complained of engine temp raising when both front and rear AC on. Toyota Dealership diagnosed with clogged radiator fins. Recommended new OEM radiator, $600 for the US spec Radaitor plus coolant and labor. They should have added...
Now that too is great anecdotal evidence and data. Thanks for posting!
This is what I'd expect to see ECT at. It speaks volumes, as to health of your engine and it's cooling system. Nice JOB! It also show this is not a systemic problem with all 100 and 200 series. Even a heavy aromed like yours. Which is what I'm seeing time and time again with my anecdotal evidence of manly stock rigs.
BTW. Do you have Slee bell pan armor or any brand?
Pressure in tank and atmospheric pressure, is reason I replaced the FPR. But it still just a hunch on my part. Thinking was: FPR may be one more factor in high fuel tank pressure. That to much returning fuel to fast, may overwhelm increasing pressure..
I do agree with you on OAT and blacktop radiant temps. These rigs can handle it, when basic are inline as they should be. Or we see this in every 100 & 200 series and many fires. DOT would have had a field-day! But for sure, OAT and radiant heat does contribute to fuel, cabin and drivetrain temps. But should not ever cause fuel boiling to point of overwhelming EVAP or causes a dangerous condition. At least not on this planet as we know it today!
One only needs to keep up PM as spelled out in OM & FSM. Which also included washing radiator fins, remove dirty & debris. Than this should only be issue if a failure occurs. Which is rare if OM followed, like "do not fill gas tank past auto shut off of pump handle". That was clearly spelled out in the 2003-up OM from Toyota. I'd add, that fuel boil building creating excessive pressure, may damage EVAP components.
My question has always been. Does off road modifying vehicle cause issue with EVAP. By reducing air flow, retaining heat and heavy weights work drivetrain harder.???
But We're seeing rigs like @abuck99 and @guardcompany built. The ECT are just fine. They do not have fuel boiling issues of any concern. One of the most off-road built rig I've ever had the pleasure of working on, belongs to @gungriffin. Yet he has no fuel issue. Interesting, His TRD package, has a 160F thermostat and he run what I'd call too cool for a stock engine.
Whereas @J1000 is indicating he at least had fuel boiling issue, before installing many heatshield in the system, even a fuel cooler. Some cool stuff...
Great data, THX!
See there you go; 186 -190f ECT in a heavy climbing passes. A well tuned and maintained heavy built 100 series. No unusual temps issues climbing off road passes at high altitude... Nice job my friend!
So it seems built is not big issue, even with full belly pan. May be adding 3f to ECT. I do recall you did the fan clutch mod. That may be helping you keep ECT in line.
Undoubtedly normal US fuel blend is a factor. But still in properly maintained rig, it really not a factory to be overly concerned with apparently.
You should be able to keep those temps w/both AC running. Max seen even on a hot day up there, IMHO, may 2 or 3 degrees higher. Which is hotter ECT than I'd expect in a full stock rig. But not so much as to overwhelm the EVAP.
Will be interesting to see you swap out FPR. See if that minor tank pressure "Removing the gas cap very warm moist vapor escaped" reduces/improves.
I think it's import he tune this puppy. Tune includes inspecting all lines and coolant system service. I bet I'd find a ton of work to do on this one.
Have you ever thought about testing a 160* thermostat just to see what happens? The part is relatively inexpensive at about $35 and it would be interesting to see if it might help to keep the ECT temps to something that works better with the fuel temps.
I haven't ever had my 42 gallon tank boil over, but I have gotten some excessive venting before when I was at elevation in the San Juans. It was boiling, but just slightly. It tends to be the San Juans causing most of the issues because of all of the high mountain passes. Most of the trail leaders will warn people to just leave their trucks running when we stop for a few minutes to avoid a no start situation due to fuel problems. If I remember correctly, it is the 06-07 that seem to have the biggest issues with not restarting due to fuel problems at elevation.
It might also be worth it to pop into the Colorado Plans Silverton thread and see if anyone had any issues while it is fresh on their minds. Colorado plans Silverton July 22nd-26th
There's some sort of (seemingly large) air inlet that I assume has a check valve in the vent valve near the tank or CC. See pic below. I wonder if that is an air passage in that neck and the leaking you noticed was that inlet check valve letting air out? IE, not necessarily a problem at the filler, but a problem in the vent valve or CC that was allowing air to go out where it should only be coming in?
The manual calls for a test of the EVAP line where you apply 4kPA (just over .5psi) to the tank. It's supposed to hold that pressure for "some time" and suggests the vent line as a potential culprit if it doesn't hold pressure.
Annoyingly, the manual lists different troubleshooting steps for pre and post 01/2006 build dates. Must have been significant changes to the system mid year on the 06 cars.
Full fill inlet- I dont think there is a check valve there. Cut off valve is in the top of the tank.
FWIW- The 06 & 07 have a different CC than 03-05, and also 98-2002- 06/06 there's also an added module on the CC (Canister Pump)
FWIW- The 06 & 07 have a different CC than 03-05, and also 98-2002- 06/06 there's also an added module on the CC (Canister Pump)
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I have the 07 LX that @2001LC has been looking at...
I've had the fuel boiling issue for awhile, happens regularly when offroading in summer time. But have also noticed it on longer road trips in summer, and occasionally around town on hot days in the Denver area. I'll smell gas and see traces of fuel that has come out the cap.. but been around cruisers long enough that I've just accepted it
Few weeks ago had a big fuel boiling issue and a "no start" at China Wall, first time with the "no start" problem and with stream of gas pouring out, so that prompted me to start looking at this deeper. It was probably around 80 OAT and 8500 FT and full tank. We stopped on the trail for a few minutes to discuss route, then I needed my keys to unlock my drawer so shut it down for a few. Restarted, ran very rough and was able to drive for a hundred feet then it died and would not restart. I opened the hood and gas cap to vent, fuel was boiling out for a good 15 minutes. Was able to restart and continue on after 30 minutes or so.
Since starting working with @2001LC, been monitoring engine temps via a ScanGauge after new thermostat, coolant flush, radiator clean out, etc.
On highway and around town, range is generally 190 - 200, usually hovers around 191-195.
After the coolant flush I did drive around that night with both heaters on, 80 OAT and engine temps were between 191-197, coolant level was fine in radiator the next morning.
Also done a couple of trails since:
- Devil's Canyon by Idaho Springs: 66 OAT, 9700 - 10,400 FT, 1/2 tank. No gas smell at start of trail, but definitely once on the trail I could start to smell gas and feel some venting out the cap. On the trail engine temps were pretty steady at 191.
- Pierson Park by Estes Park: 55 OAT, 8600 - 9500 FT, Full tank. Engine temp pretty steady at 190. No gas smell, but was much cooler outside with rain.
We still need to replace fan clutch and radiator cap (was on backorder). Will likely do fuel pump as well.
I've had the fuel boiling issue for awhile, happens regularly when offroading in summer time. But have also noticed it on longer road trips in summer, and occasionally around town on hot days in the Denver area. I'll smell gas and see traces of fuel that has come out the cap.. but been around cruisers long enough that I've just accepted it
Few weeks ago had a big fuel boiling issue and a "no start" at China Wall, first time with the "no start" problem and with stream of gas pouring out, so that prompted me to start looking at this deeper. It was probably around 80 OAT and 8500 FT and full tank. We stopped on the trail for a few minutes to discuss route, then I needed my keys to unlock my drawer so shut it down for a few. Restarted, ran very rough and was able to drive for a hundred feet then it died and would not restart. I opened the hood and gas cap to vent, fuel was boiling out for a good 15 minutes. Was able to restart and continue on after 30 minutes or so.
Since starting working with @2001LC, been monitoring engine temps via a ScanGauge after new thermostat, coolant flush, radiator clean out, etc.
On highway and around town, range is generally 190 - 200, usually hovers around 191-195.
After the coolant flush I did drive around that night with both heaters on, 80 OAT and engine temps were between 191-197, coolant level was fine in radiator the next morning.
Also done a couple of trails since:
- Devil's Canyon by Idaho Springs: 66 OAT, 9700 - 10,400 FT, 1/2 tank. No gas smell at start of trail, but definitely once on the trail I could start to smell gas and feel some venting out the cap. On the trail engine temps were pretty steady at 191.
- Pierson Park by Estes Park: 55 OAT, 8600 - 9500 FT, Full tank. Engine temp pretty steady at 190. No gas smell, but was much cooler outside with rain.
We still need to replace fan clutch and radiator cap (was on backorder). Will likely do fuel pump as well.
I wheeled with the same group for the week and no one of 6 trucks of various model years from 98-2007 had any remarkable issues.
2001LC
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #250
Oh. So was the fuel secured in the bracket that bolts to the head cover. If not they bouncing around. There is a few other clips that fasten line & hoses together also, depending on year.Ton of work? Eh not really. I've done new all OEM steering rack/ radiator/ clutch fan/ shocks/ thermostat /CV's all DIY in the last year. Maybe a few hose brackets were loose but its maintained well. I'm not sure if a fuel line inspection is part of a normal service. Cooling system never goes above 193F.
I normally would DIY this job but I have a LS 80 series now that needs all my time so this one got towed to a LC specialist. It was a pinhole crack in the plastic inner line. I could see where the rubber outer part had warn down but it wasn't exactly clear what was rubbing on it. Also, I can't tell if the damaged rubber outer portion is due to friction wear or when the line ruptured it blew the rubber outer part off since 60psi fuel would probably do that. I've only had this for 20k miles so its very possible it was damaged by a VC gasket job done by the prior owner. I'll ask for the old line when it gets replaced.
The fuel line is rubber on the outside but has a hard plastic inner I believe. I'll double check when it gets back but I'm 90% sure it has a plastic core.
Also, to reiterate, I do not think it was caused by any increase in fuel tank/line pressure. It was definitely caused due to wear on the line itself. But I should probably stop speculating until I get the line back...
I've yet to see a ruptured fuel line. I'd like to see picture as yours sits now of LH side of engine and all lines.
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2001LC
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #252
Good report.I have the 07 LX that @2001LC has been looking at...
I've had the fuel boiling issue for awhile, happens regularly when offroading in summer time. But have also noticed it on longer road trips in summer, and occasionally around town on hot days in the Denver area. I'll smell gas and see traces of fuel that has come out the cap.. but been around cruisers long enough that I've just accepted it
Few weeks ago had a big fuel boiling issue and a "no start" at China Wall, first time with the "no start" problem and with stream of gas pouring out, so that prompted me to start looking at this deeper. It was probably around 80 OAT and 8500 FT and full tank. We stopped on the trail for a few minutes to discuss route, then I needed my keys to unlock my drawer so shut it down for a few. Restarted, ran very rough and was able to drive for a hundred feet then it died and would not restart. I opened the hood and gas cap to vent, fuel was boiling out for a good 15 minutes. Was able to restart and continue on after 30 minutes or so.
Since starting working with @2001LC, been monitoring engine temps via a ScanGauge after new thermostat, coolant flush, radiator clean out, etc.
On highway and around town, range is generally 190 - 200, usually hovers around 191-195.
After the coolant flush I did drive around that night with both heaters on, 80 OAT and engine temps were between 191-197, coolant level was fine in radiator the next morning.
Also done a couple of trails since:
- Devil's Canyon by Idaho Springs: 66 OAT, 9700 - 10,400 FT, 1/2 tank. No gas smell at start of trail, but definitely once on the trail I could start to smell gas and feel some venting out the cap. On the trail engine temps were pretty steady at 191.
- Pierson Park by Estes Park: 55 OAT, 8600 - 9500 FT, Full tank. Engine temp pretty steady at 190. No gas smell, but was much cooler outside with rain.
We still need to replace fan clutch and radiator cap (was on backorder). Will likely do fuel pump as well.
OAT been low lately, so not the test conditions we'd hoped for.
So do you feel we got some improvement? I can say I'm not happy with ECT. I really want to get that down, before we dig into EVAP.
BTW: Parts got here today. I'd like to first swap out the fan clutch and see how it behaves. I don't think it going to make a big difference. Based on our inspection of the fan clutch, but worth a shot. You can come by most anytime just text to make sure I'm around..
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hoser
SILVER Star
I don't care to discuss but I have a brand new filler neck in my hand. There's no way it is leaking through the plastic ring. Carry on...
IDK- maybe a small increase in fuel econ.(1mpg) The fuel vapor issue this year was less than previous years- id had a good deal of vapor staining on near the fuel door in past years at Silverton but none this year. Differences; substantially cooler ambient temps, more rain, using lower octane fuel, fan clutch mod, some new vacuum lines. Random.
Eyedaho
SILVER Star
I noticed that Rock Auto has Aisin fan clutches for $73 if you still need one.I have the 07 LX that @2001LC has been looking at...
I've had the fuel boiling issue for awhile, happens regularly when offroading in summer time. But have also noticed it on longer road trips in summer, and occasionally around town on hot days in the Denver area. I'll smell gas and see traces of fuel that has come out the cap.. but been around cruisers long enough that I've just accepted it
Few weeks ago had a big fuel boiling issue and a "no start" at China Wall, first time with the "no start" problem and with stream of gas pouring out, so that prompted me to start looking at this deeper. It was probably around 80 OAT and 8500 FT and full tank. We stopped on the trail for a few minutes to discuss route, then I needed my keys to unlock my drawer so shut it down for a few. Restarted, ran very rough and was able to drive for a hundred feet then it died and would not restart. I opened the hood and gas cap to vent, fuel was boiling out for a good 15 minutes. Was able to restart and continue on after 30 minutes or so.
Since starting working with @2001LC, been monitoring engine temps via a ScanGauge after new thermostat, coolant flush, radiator clean out, etc.
On highway and around town, range is generally 190 - 200, usually hovers around 191-195.
After the coolant flush I did drive around that night with both heaters on, 80 OAT and engine temps were between 191-197, coolant level was fine in radiator the next morning.
Also done a couple of trails since:
- Devil's Canyon by Idaho Springs: 66 OAT, 9700 - 10,400 FT, 1/2 tank. No gas smell at start of trail, but definitely once on the trail I could start to smell gas and feel some venting out the cap. On the trail engine temps were pretty steady at 191.
- Pierson Park by Estes Park: 55 OAT, 8600 - 9500 FT, Full tank. Engine temp pretty steady at 190. No gas smell, but was much cooler outside with rain.
We still need to replace fan clutch and radiator cap (was on backorder). Will likely do fuel pump as well.
Sounds good, I'll come over in the next few days. I have not seen any significant differences in ECT.
Hmm why so certain? Your photo is looking directly at a SEAM in the plastic. Have you aged it for 13 years and gave it plenty of use? How does the plastic ring seal against the metal tube? No possible way? I'm looking at one possible way...
Also this neck is not the same as the neck on my 2007 which has two vent tubes, one from the tank and one from the CC.
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Not true. At least not on my 2007. On a V8 4Runner there is a check-valve in the top of the tank in the filler hose inlet, but not so on the LC/LX. Not so on mine. Sorry but I removed the tubes and stuck my finger in there, so I know
Did it when I was checking all of my hoses for leaks.
personally I'd want as much fuel returning to the tank as possible while maintaining spec pressure and leak down.
The older the spring is, the more returns to the tank. The newer the spring is, the more is retained in the rails - the normally considered hot part of the system.
One air bubble being pushed down the return line, on either side of the regulator, or between the damper and the regulator dooms everything. That is what you hear with the engine off. The only thing I think has changed is the property of the fuel.
isn't it known that a lower temp thermostat will just allow it to start the overheating process faster?
if one unit must have 10mm of lift at a certain temp and another must have 10mm of lift at a lower temp than the first, will they reach an overheated temp at the same time or will one be faster than the other? all else equal, no change in volume through the orifice.
for the life of me I cannot see how normal coolant temps have anything do do with fuel boiling.
The older the spring is, the more returns to the tank. The newer the spring is, the more is retained in the rails - the normally considered hot part of the system.
One air bubble being pushed down the return line, on either side of the regulator, or between the damper and the regulator dooms everything. That is what you hear with the engine off. The only thing I think has changed is the property of the fuel.
isn't it known that a lower temp thermostat will just allow it to start the overheating process faster?
if one unit must have 10mm of lift at a certain temp and another must have 10mm of lift at a lower temp than the first, will they reach an overheated temp at the same time or will one be faster than the other? all else equal, no change in volume through the orifice.
for the life of me I cannot see how normal coolant temps have anything do do with fuel boiling.
