2018 200 series vs GX550 (1 Viewer)

[krice118]

Failure rate isn't any greater that the 2000 100 series transmission, or the 80 series head gasket, or the 3UR cam tower leak, and significantly less than the beloved 200 series radiator. No machine is perfect and the brand value of Toyota reliability is an asset not worth risking on an unaddressed problem. This would literally take Toyota down if it were as big of a problem as discussed. I'd rock a 550 with zero concerns.

I think the difference is those 3UR issues are way easier / cheaper to fix than an engine out issue that the 3.5 TT V6 has.

New radiator and cam tower fixes are under $3k if paying a dealer…..

 

[skrypj]

Are we really putting Ford up as a benchmark? Cam phasers?

Lol, thats kinda my point. Even Ford didnt have a problem making a durable turbo V6 for trucks 14 years ago. Ecoboosts weren't blowing up at 20-30k routinely. At its core, the Ecoboosts have been proven to be pretty tough engines, especially the 2.7L. This isnt an over-stressed issue clearly.

Cam phasers were design by Borg Warner BTW, but still, at least they were not eating crank bearings requiring the motor to be pulled. A cam phaser job probably isnt and worse than the Cam tower job in the 5.7L and Ford had the phasers updated and going into trucks at the factory within 2 years.

 

[OregonLC]

I think the difference is those 3UR issues are way easier / cheaper to fix than an engine out issue that the 3.5 TT V6 has.

New radiator and cam tower fixes are under $3k if paying a dealer…..

Or... 100% of 3UR will have radiator failures and a larger percentage (compared to V35A) of cam tower leaks, valley plate leaks, etc. Not minimizing the cost or severity of the a main bearing failure, just that if measured as total cost to the fleet the 200 has a not small financial footprint.

It's a case of the devil you know; we're familiar and accept the known 200 risks while the 550 is currently unquantifiable and therefore we project the scale to be large and scary. It's either a problem and Toyota will take care of it or it happens so rarely that it's not worth worrying about. The fear factor is that Toyota will turn their back and not address it and that is not a scenario that I subscribe to.

 

[skrypj]

It’s not that, at least not for me. What drew me to Toyota was their ethos plainly on display through conservatively overbuilt and understressed platforms that can go anywhere with some mild mods and get back home every time and do so for hundreds of thousands of miles. The 3UR was a very advanced engine for its time—it produces 90% of its max torque at 2600 rpm but is still low-stress in stock form.

There are what, 3 or 4 million-mile 3URs at this point? For Toyota having a disproportionately small fraction of work truck fleet sales, that is flat out impressive.

Contrast this with the V35A-FTS twin turbo. Yeah it’s more powerful. It will presumably beat Toyota’s v8s in every metric and every race, except the one many Toyota owners care the most about: the slow march to 300k+ miles. I know the bottom end failures are a small % but I still can’t help but feel that we are seeing the end of Toyota’s golden era. Would love to be wrong.

I think you missed my point though. I was stating that types of engines(gasoline turbocharged direct injected) have been in trucks now for well over a decade and, in general, have not seen major bottom end failures like the V35A has been. There was some failures with the very early 3.5L Ecoboosts because of water ingestion hydrolocking the motor. Ford's solution was to redesign the intercooler. It was not due to the engine being over-stressed or not being able to cope with the stress from 3.5L moving a 6000 lb truck around.

Since then, Ford also debuted the 2.7L Ecoboost in the F150, and that motor is considered exceptionally reliable overall. The only major issue with it was leaky plastic oil pans(cam towers anyone?) 2.7L, IMHO, is the best half ton motor on the market.

Now GM has had their own 2.7L since the 2019 model year. Bottom ends arnt blowing up.

I think that Toyota had to make the V35A because the competition was killing them in power and towing comfort. If Toyota can manage to make an engine that can “slow march” to 250k and yet produce tons of power, then i am all for it.

I have the Ford 3.5 Powerboost powertrain (hybrid), which makes 430 HP and 570 Torque. I have 2019 LC with the V8. I am sure that the V8 will potentially last longer with less issues. But on the highway (or streets), there is just no comparison. It is like a V8 vs. I4. I can go from 70-100 mph in a blink of an eye in my Ford to pass someone. In LC, it takes a lot longer and more revving/noise and foot to floor. Cruising at 80, my Ford is just as silent if not slightly more than LC. Mountains? An even bigger divide!

So, if Toyota can bridge the quality difference in providing tons of power + good (but not great) durability (that Ford lacks), then i think that it is a huge win.

(And Toyota needs to use Lithium battery in their hybrids! Geez freaking 2010 calling Toyota!)

This. While the 5.7L has suprised me with its grunt, the Ecoboost is so strong down low. And in the newer trucks that are lighter and more powerful than my 2014, they are just monsters. Driveability wise, they are unbeatable. And I was able to stuff 35's on mine and it didnt even care one bit. Regearing was not a consideration at all.

And at no point in time did I ever second guess if my Ecoboost would leave me stranded. I would pull my trailer way out into the middle of nowhere in southern UT and not think twice.

Meanwhile I put 285/70's on my GX460 and thing was a total dog.

IMO, Toyotas golden era was in the 90s with 3G 4Runner, 80 series LC, MKIV Supra, LS400, etc.

This. 100%. The cracks started to show up in the armor in the early 2000's I would say.

The 'golden era' was represented by the quality gap. A 22RE, isn't a 500k 3UR. It's just that it could make it to 150k while Chevy was 100k at best. CNC manufacturing and common sourcing has closed this gap. Take the ZF transmission. That is used in such a wide range of vehicles that it makes economic sense to invest heavily in design and engineering. This elevates the quality of those brands and closes the gap with Toyota.

The other part of the equation is the performance expectation. 235 hp from a 4.7 V8 or 236 hp from a 4.0 V6 is a very under-stressed engine. 479 lbs-ft of torque from a 3.4L is a different animal. If the GX was making 250 hp there would be huge complaints about how Toyota missed the mark on power.

I don't think main bearings will the be the ultimate hallmark of these engines. Rather, it will be turbo longevity. I'm guessing we're looking at 150k service life with expensive repairs around that point and early engine failures should it not be address and the engine ingests a compressor wheel.

100% this. The 22RE could go pretty far but the guys ive talked to that really knew the motor and worked at Toyota shops said that by 200k they needed a rebuild. I had a 22RE in my 1995 4Runner and it was in rough shape at 210k miles. It was drinking oil like crazy. I'd have to put in like 2 quarts just to get 4.5 hours down to Moab.

 

[xeuxaz]

Or... 100% of 3UR will have radiator failures and a larger percentage (compared to V35A) of cam tower leaks, valley plate leaks, etc. Not minimizing the cost or severity of the a main bearing failure, just that if measured as total cost to the fleet the 200 has a not small financial footprint.

It's a case of the devil you know; we're familiar and accept the known 200 risks while the 550 is currently unquantifiable and therefore we project the scale to be large and scary. It's either a problem and Toyota will take care of it or it happens so rarely that it's not worth worrying about. The fear factor is that Toyota will turn their back and not address it and that is not a scenario that I subscribe to.

Have you seen the repair procedure for the V35A-FTS? Toyota only provides short blocks, and it is a cab-off repair. That's quite a bit different than Cam Towers or a Radiator. I'm specifically referencing the number of ancillary parts/bolts/etc that are touched for the repair. Trucks that have this issue will never go back together the same. Period.

 

[xeuxaz]

I think @bjowett is on to something concerning his oiling theory for the V35A.

Japanese V35A-FTS Bearing Issues

I know the tundras have lots of documented cases. Surprised to see LX600s with the issue too. Have any members had experience with this on their LX600?

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[TeCKis300]

Ford had the phasers updated and going into trucks at the factory within 2 years.

I'm not so sure of that. My buddies with 2016 and 2017s both had their phasers repaired to the tune of thousands of dollars.

Buddy with second gen Raptor traded it in because of catastrophic engine failure. His next third gen Raptor had constant MFD issues and then it broke a trailing arm bracket off the rear axle. He's on his third Raptor, and his A/C keeps failing and freezing up on extended off-roading days.

Of 5 friends that have F150s, they've all had serious phaser, turbo, transmission, mechanical issues under 100k miles. From my perspective, these are disposable cars.

 

[skrypj]

I'm not so sure of that. My buddies with 2016 and 2017s both had their phasers repaired to the tune of thousands of dollars.

Buddy with second gen Raptor traded it in because of catastrophic engine failure. His next third gen Raptor had constant MFD issues and then it broke a trailing arm bracket off the rear axle. He's on his third Raptor, and his A/C keeps failing and freezing up on extended off-roading days.

Of 5 friends that have F150s, they've all had serious phaser, turbo, transmission, mechanical issues under 100k miles. From my perspective, these are disposable cars.

You buddies 2016 did not have phaser issues. His timing chain stretched, probably due to extended OCI's. That issue was addressed by API SN+ and API SP oil standards and the 3.5L Ecoboost was used as the case study in the design of those standards. Gasoline oils were not built to cope with the soot and fuel dilution from direct injected motors during the early years of the ecoboost. Phasers were not an issue on that gen.

2017 was when the 2nd Gen 3.5 Ecoboost came out and that was the one that had phaser issues. By 2019 they were installing the updated designs at the factory and any trucks with the issues should have received updated phasers during recalls. And of your friend's with late 2019 or 2020+ trucks probably have not had phaser issues?

Either way, you are trying to argue a point I never made. I dont believe I ever stated Ecoboost were perfect, or Ford's in general. Most of the issues you stated are issues any vehicle with any engine could have. Toyota is having serious issues with the A760 transmission in the GX460, last I heard they were on backorder cause so many are s***ting the bed.

That video I was responding to was about the motor being overstressed leading to bearing failures which simply isnt the case historically. It might be the case with the V35A, but generally claiming that these turbo motors are overstressed is a false statement. If thats the case then so are most diesels in passenger cars and yet all you hear from the Toyota crowd is how badly they want a Toyota diesel.

 

[LX Cruiser]

Highway acceleration can be important if you travel on single lane roads like i do and have to pass someone.

I am sure that my Toyota will outlast my Ford…but at this very moment, my Ford is FAR more practical for my needs than my LC. Far more. I am sure that in the race to 200-300k+ miles, the Ford will statistically be worst.

But as of right now with 21k miles on my Ford, I have had LESS issues than i have had with my 59k miles LC when it was at similar age. My LC infotainment center gave up the ghost at under 30k miles. Both have similar amount of rattles at times…basically none. My Ford gets 4-5 mpg better than LC.

The only place where LC has clear advantage are off-road capability and longevity. Other than that, daily driving, comfort, practicality / features, etc. all favor Ford.

Yes, I drive on two lane highways as well and have zero problems passing people. When we drive to visit family, I spend about 6 hours crossing an entire state on two lane roads. Passing zones are few and far between.

It sounds like we’re kind of saying the same thing. The Ford is here for a good time; the Toyota is here for a long time.

I’m just glad we have options.

 

[LX Cruiser]

I think you missed my point though. I was stating that types of engines(gasoline turbocharged direct injected) have been in trucks now for well over a decade and, in general, have not seen major bottom end failures like the V35A has been.

I get that point. My point is that, rare catastrophic failures aside, small displacement high power engines are inherently less durable over the long term.

While the 5.7L has suprised me with its grunt, the Ecoboost is so strong down low. And in the newer trucks that are lighter and more powerful than my 2014, they are just monsters. Driveability wise, they are unbeatable. And I was able to stuff 35's on mine and it didnt even care one bit. Regearing was not a consideration at all.

You also admitted on a different forum that your F150 needed a new engine at 110k miles or something. You said it was due to irresponsible tuning. I know a few other guys who needed new engines or new turbos at similar and even less mileage. Catastrophic failures are rare, sure; I am just surrounded by Ford guys, everywhere I look. I know WAY too many people who have constant, nagging issues with Fords, especially EcoBoost F150s made after around 2016. But boy they sure love to give me crap about 14 mpg. Lol.

And of your friend's with late 2019 or 2020+ trucks probably have not had phaser issues?

One of my buddies had the cam phaser rattle on a 2019 Expedition Limited. Ford fixed it under warranty, and it started making the exact same noise a couple weeks later. Now the same dealer says it’s “normal”, and there’s nothing they can do. He has been driving with it for a while. About to hit 100k miles and is considering trading it in.

 

[rscoleman]

2 to 3 years old is my limit for a used vehicle not that I bought a lot of used vehicles (car in 1993, motorcycle in 1994, LC in 2018). I also try not to buy newly released vehicles. I do not want the growing pains of new releases. If my LC was totaled tomorrow then GX550 Overtrail would be my first choice as last of LC are all going to be over 3 year in year or 2. I not interested in LX600 to many things I do not want.

 

[Supra Turbo]

2 to 3 years old is my limit for a used vehicle not that I bought a lot of used vehicles (car in 1993, motorcycle in 1994, LC in 2018). I also try not to buy newly released vehicles. I do not want the growing pains of new releases. If my LC was totaled tomorrow then GX550 Overtrail would be my first choice as last of LC are all going to be over 3 year in year or 2. I not interested in LX600 to many things I do not want.

That is funny, but I understand your reasoning. For me personally, I would not even consider anything new or as new as a 2-3 year old vehicle. My general rule for daily drivers is 10-20 years old and for fun toys 30-50. IIRC, out of the last 50 vehicles in the past 10 years, my 11 year old LC is the newest. I'll pick up a GX550 OT once it's been out for a decade or so

 

[Joshuak172]

I get that point. My point is that, rare catastrophic failures aside, small displacement high power engines are inherently less durable over the long term.

You also admitted on a different forum that your F150 needed a new engine at 110k miles or something. You said it was due to irresponsible tuning. I know a few other guys who needed new engines or new turbos at similar and even less mileage. Catastrophic failures are rare, sure; I am just surrounded by Ford guys, everywhere I look. I know WAY too many people who have constant, nagging issues with Fords, especially EcoBoost F150s made after around 2016. But boy they sure love to give me crap about 14 mpg. Lol.

One of my buddies had the cam phaser rattle on a 2019 Expedition Limited. Ford fixed it under warranty, and it started making the exact same noise a couple weeks later. Now the same dealer says it’s “normal”, and there’s nothing they can do. He has been driving with it for a while. About to hit 100k miles and is considering trading it in.

I would be curious to know the actual data regarding prevalence of bottom end failures on the V35. I certainly don’t like the idea of driving a ticking time bomb but so far my 23 tundra has been nearly perfect and likely the best half ton I have owned.

 

[Valgrind]

I would be curious to know the actual data regarding prevalence of bottom end failures on the V35. I certainly don’t like the idea of driving a ticking time bomb but so far my 23 tundra has been nearly perfect and likely the best half ton I have owned.

Well idk about number of how many its happened, but my buddy who is a tech at a toyota dealership said he had 5 or so when the new tundra first came out. It seems like toyota figured out the engine bearing issue really quick. All were done completely under warranty btw.

 

[Madtiger]

Reliable inside sources told me that Toyota started using this to fix the issue definitively:

 

[skrypj]

I get that point. My point is that, rare catastrophic failures aside, small displacement high power engines are inherently less durable over the long term.

You also admitted on a different forum that your F150 needed a new engine at 110k miles or something. You said it was due to irresponsible tuning. I know a few other guys who needed new engines or new turbos at similar and even less mileage. Catastrophic failures are rare, sure; I am just surrounded by Ford guys, everywhere I look. I know WAY too many people who have constant, nagging issues with Fords, especially EcoBoost F150s made after around 2016. But boy they sure love to give me crap about 14 mpg. Lol.

One of my buddies had the cam phaser rattle on a 2019 Expedition Limited. Ford fixed it under warranty, and it started making the exact same noise a couple weeks later. Now the same dealer says it’s “normal”, and there’s nothing they can do. He has been driving with it for a while. About to hit 100k miles and is considering trading it in.

yes, my F150 was tuned from 15k miles making 500 ft-lbs at 2000 rpm and 550 ft-lbs at 2500. It then towed >22000 miles tuned in the Rockies and when it blew up it had 105k. However, there was a question as to whether the fuel pump failed and caused the motor to go lean because the pump needed to be replaced once they put the new motor. So it’s not clear that the bottom end actually failed due to just not being strong enough.

I believe in the supercharger thread here there was just a post about a stock trd supercharged 5.7L with an aftermarket tune disintegrating a piston at 99k?

Your buddies 2019 got the old parts that the dealer had leftover.

You’d think of all the people, I’d be the first one to bash turbo’d truck motors but I actually respect how well my Ecoboost did considering how much stress I exposed it too. I absolutely abused mine harder than probably 99.99% of the people out there.

 

[LX Cruiser]

Your buddies 2019 got the old parts that the dealer had leftover.

That’s possible, but I doubt it. The work was done in early ‘22, and this is not exactly an uncommon problem. I think it’s more likely that the company that spends billions more than anyone else in warranty costs just sucks at quality control.

I absolutely abused mine harder than probably 99.99% of the people out there.

I don’t disagree. But I know a lot of people who drive F150s and Expys who didn’t abuse theirs, and the general trend is they start having regular problems around 100k-125k miles.

I'm not so sure of that. My buddies with 2016 and 2017s both had their phasers repaired to the tune of thousands of dollars.

Buddy with second gen Raptor traded it in because of catastrophic engine failure. His next third gen Raptor had constant MFD issues and then it broke a trailing arm bracket off the rear axle. He's on his third Raptor, and his A/C keeps failing and freezing up on extended off-roading days.

Of 5 friends that have F150s, they've all had serious phaser, turbo, transmission, mechanical issues under 100k miles. From my perspective, these are disposable cars.

Of the dozen or so F150s my friends and relatives drive, they just start falling apart sooner than Toyotas. Almost every one of those trucks is 8 years old or less.

Interesting anecdote: a friend of mine who got a $8k repair bill for his 2013 ecoboost at 113k miles also traded his in on an LX, just like @skrypj. He said that his F150 was a great truck…until it wasn’t. And you just never really know when that time is coming. Based on everyone’s experience around me, I’d have to agree.

 

[Madtiger]

That’s possible, but I doubt it. The work was done in early ‘22, and this is not exactly an uncommon problem. I think it’s more likely that the company that spends billions more than anyone else in warranty costs just sucks at quality control.

I don’t disagree. But I know a lot of people who drive F150s and Expys who didn’t abuse theirs, and the general trend is they start having regular problems around 100k-125k miles.

Of the dozen or so F150s my friends and relatives drive, they just start falling apart sooner than Toyotas. Almost every one of those trucks is 8 years old or less.

Interesting anecdote: a friend of mine who got a $8k repair bill for his 2013 ecoboost at 113k miles also traded his in on an LX, just like @skrypj. He said that his F150 was a great truck…until it wasn’t. And you just never really know when that time is coming. Based on everyone’s experience around me, I’d have to agree.

That is why I have extended warranty on my F150 till 120k miles. After that I will trade it in at first sign of trouble.

I had a connecting rod blow on Toyota venerable 3.5L V6 in my 2008 Sienna. $4500 repair bill. After repair, it started to leak oil. Got rid of it.

I had 2015 Acura MDX with venerable 3.5L V6 that started leaking everywhere by 175k miles.

I hope that my LC will go against the trend for me.

 

[Madtiger]

Hmm

 

[2021 LC200]

That is why I have extended warranty on my F150 till 120k miles. After that I will trade it in at first sign of trouble.

I had a connecting rod blow on Toyota venerable 3.5L V6 in my 2008 Sienna. $4500 repair bill. After repair, it started to leak oil. Got rid of it.

I had 2015 Acura MDX with venerable 3.5L V6 that started leaking everywhere by 175k miles.

I hope that my LC will go against the trend for me.

Your experience goes against what I have seen. Statistically that is possible. Not trying to second guess your “grieve” yet trying to understand the potential cause; Did you own the Sienna and MDX from new? Or had any overheating events?