Would you recommend potentially setting a higher preload on new bearings to account for the initial loss of preload once they settle? Or is this just something that needs to be adjusted over time as the bearings settle?
Wheel Bearing; FSM Torque to Light or just Right. (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter 2001LC
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Would you recommend potentially setting a higher preload on new bearings to account for the initial loss of preload once they settle? Or is this just something that needs to be adjusted over time as the bearings settle?
It's just like any other vehicle with tapered front wheel bearings. Shop manual does not differentiate between new v. existing bearings.
hth
Steve
Thanks, I'll definitely do that. My LX only has 70k miles, so I'm wondering if the 2.2 is still the correct application, or if I'll have gap in a few hundred miles. I'll check, and report back.
- Thread starter
- #64
No. You can take to higher limit of 15lb BW preload, if you like. IMHO factory accounts for this and is why they recommend service every 30K miles. I have reset BW preload after 500 and 2K miles as I do like tight, but not necessary.
WOW 70K. The 2.2 should be good, Still I'll bet you have a measurable gap, but within spec. of less than 0,20mm.
Not sure why you even replaced those bearings. But no matter new will last a very long time, as long as kept tight.
Just another data point, I repack and adjust my wheel bearings every year before our Colorado wheeling season. I pulled mine this weekend and found my adjuster nut finger tight... YIKES! (my lock nut was tight and the lock washer was doing it's job) I thought I had a light rotor warp issue as I was getting a little wobble at slow braking speeds. but it turns out my FSM spec on tightening the adjuster nut is not going to work with the 35's I am now running.
I found this thread and went with @2001LC recommendation for the adjuster nut to be torqued to 23 ft/lbs. and bumped up to 25# as I was getting a good pull with my scale at 25# on the adjuster nut with the rotor turning free at about 15 pounds of force. That is where I am going to leave it for the season unless I see a reason to change it.
A big thanks to 2000lc for your analysis and detailed approach man. I'd love to bust your chops for being so analytical but this thread really helped bud, keep up the good work!
I REALLY think mods this thread should be tacked onto the FAQ. More and more 100's are being used on the trails and the FSM is just too low for our modified rigs running bigger meats. I think the 80's series guys can confirm this as well as I read posts over there too.
I found this thread and went with @2001LC recommendation for the adjuster nut to be torqued to 23 ft/lbs. and bumped up to 25# as I was getting a good pull with my scale at 25# on the adjuster nut with the rotor turning free at about 15 pounds of force. That is where I am going to leave it for the season unless I see a reason to change it.
A big thanks to 2000lc for your analysis and detailed approach man. I'd love to bust your chops for being so analytical but this thread really helped bud, keep up the good work!
I REALLY think mods this thread should be tacked onto the FAQ. More and more 100's are being used on the trails and the FSM is just too low for our modified rigs running bigger meats. I think the 80's series guys can confirm this as well as I read posts over there too.
- Thread starter
- #66
It was the off-roads guy's here in mud that first clued me to the "tighter the better". Once larger tires, lift, spacers, etc are added it puts addition force on bearings. So taking it to the limit of 15lb pull on fish scale (springs scale) preload is even more advisable. Just remember to check again after locking nut torqued to 47ft-lbf. Because after lock nut torqued, it often increases breakaway preload 1 to 2 lb.
I'm finding new bearings or ones in really good condition, will take 45ft-lbf to 70ft-lbf of torque on adjusting nut to get only ~12-13 lb preload. Keep in mind, preload and torque declines with mileage. At only ~5k miles, lock nut loosen to ~20ft-lbf and preload to ~8lb of breakaway preload.
You didn't mention your snap ring gap (axle hub flange to axle). Very important to keep supper tight also. The combination of tight bearings and narrow gap save axle teeth and hub flange from being eaten on the trail.
I'm finding new bearings or ones in really good condition, will take 45ft-lbf to 70ft-lbf of torque on adjusting nut to get only ~12-13 lb preload. Keep in mind, preload and torque declines with mileage. At only ~5k miles, lock nut loosen to ~20ft-lbf and preload to ~8lb of breakaway preload.
You didn't mention your snap ring gap (axle hub flange to axle). Very important to keep supper tight also. The combination of tight bearings and narrow gap save axle teeth and hub flange from being eaten on the trail.
So I'm in the process of doing this for the second time. First time doing it I didn't have a scale, set the nut to 47lb and put the locking nut on it at 47lb also.
Today i have a scale, and for the life of me, i can't get the scale to give me anything over 5lb even when tightening the nut from 47lb to 80lb! What am i doing wrong here?
Reused the bearings, just repacked them and cleaned everything else.
Thanks in advance!
Update, after torquing the locking nut to 47lb, i managed to get the scale up to 8.9 pounds.
So the first nut is at 57lb and the locking nut at 47. I think I'm just going to button it up and call it a day.
Today i have a scale, and for the life of me, i can't get the scale to give me anything over 5lb even when tightening the nut from 47lb to 80lb! What am i doing wrong here?
Reused the bearings, just repacked them and cleaned everything else.
Thanks in advance!
Update, after torquing the locking nut to 47lb, i managed to get the scale up to 8.9 pounds.
So the first nut is at 57lb and the locking nut at 47. I think I'm just going to button it up and call it a day.
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- Thread starter
- #68
You've got very good bearings!
The better condition the wheel bearings are in, the cleaner the bearings are, the better the grease used. The higher the torque will go to achieve the desired preload. I've hit 74ft-lbf on adjusting nut to get 12lb preload pull on spring scale. I don't like applying much more torque than that, out of concern I may strip thread.
Spring scale must be pulled at perfect 90 degree angle every time. Repeatable consistence is key!
The better condition the wheel bearings are in, the cleaner the bearings are, the better the grease used. The higher the torque will go to achieve the desired preload. I've hit 74ft-lbf on adjusting nut to get 12lb preload pull on spring scale. I don't like applying much more torque than that, out of concern I may strip thread.
Spring scale must be pulled at perfect 90 degree angle every time. Repeatable consistence is key!
So i went back and redid the whole thing this morning, after realizing that the inner adjusting nut torque numbers are in inch and NOT foot pounds last night. So that throws everything out the window!
I took it on a drive last night and by the end of it i couldn't touch the dust cap or the hub at all, which is what lead me to discover the difference in the torque units used in the fsm on step two 2 sub step d
I took it on a drive last night and by the end of it i couldn't touch the dust cap or the hub at all, which is what lead me to discover the difference in the torque units used in the fsm on step two 2 sub step d
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I just completed this job and found the FSM procedure to yield less than 5lbs preload. I had to tighten the adjuster a LOT to get closer to 10-15. I'm probably at 50+ ft-lbs on the adjuster. I stopped measuring torque after the tenth time or so and realized I just needed to crank that nut, test, crank, test, crank, test, etc...
My bearings have not been touched in 80k miles since I bought the car and I have no record of anyone prior to me touching them. The vehicle is at 272k now, so the bearings in there have somewhere between 80k and 272k miles.
I couldn't figure out why the FSM method seemed so far off. I had to apply around 10x the suggested torque to the adjuster nut to get the preload where they wanted it.
Perhaps I should measure my hub temps...
My bearings have not been touched in 80k miles since I bought the car and I have no record of anyone prior to me touching them. The vehicle is at 272k now, so the bearings in there have somewhere between 80k and 272k miles.
I couldn't figure out why the FSM method seemed so far off. I had to apply around 10x the suggested torque to the adjuster nut to get the preload where they wanted it.
Perhaps I should measure my hub temps...
That's what happened with me, 170k and third repack. I did the last one, 47lb and went with it. This time around,i had a fish scale and fsm in front of me. Kept torquing until i got within range of the preload, then realized I'm at almost 80 foot pound. So i backed off a bit and put it together. Went on a 5 mile trip and when i got to my destination i couldn't touch the dust cap or rotor hat.
Which had me open up the fsm again and that's when i realized the range of 38-57 was in inches and not pound feet!
So i loosened everything again this morning and tightened the adjustment nut to 5 foot pound, which is in the upper range of what the fsm specifies, then torqued the locking nut to 47 foot pounds.
Feels nice and tight, preload between 5 and 50 foot pound is really about the same. I ended up changing the radiator hoses and thermostat and ran out of coolant so i never got a chance to drive it after the second adjustment.
I'm kind of in a panic as I'm getting ready to load up and hit the road Friday night to attend hih.
I probably should've left it all alone and just used the slee tool to grease the needle bearings, which was the reason this all happened.
And now I'm lost between this new fsm way or the way i did it before.
Good insight. I can jump into mine again easy enough this weekend and maybe leave it a little looser. I just got the damn spring scale to test this preload to spec and now it seems it's only made things worse.
- Thread starter
- #73
You need to read one step further:
2 (d), 38-57in-lbf torque on adjusting nut. This is only is only starting point.
2 (e) is the key to set bearing tension (preload). This compensates for condition of bearings. If all was always the same FSM would just give a torque spec. The preload is the key to a proper bearing job. But so often either a mistake was made during assembly. OR preload is not set correctly due to angle and or direction at which spring scale is pulled in relation to vehicle.
Setting bearing adjusting nut to 57in-lbf, is way to loose. It is all about the breakaway preload (BP) as read on fish scale.
Examples of what I've seen over the last 100 or so wheel bearings services I've done over past 15+ years:
Bearings in poor condition, I'll see ~20FT-lbf at a 12lb BP.
Brand new bearings clean and properly greased, I'll see ~45ft-lbf at a 12LB BP.
With very good well broken in bearings I'll see ~65ft-lbf at a 12lb BP.
Best bearings I've ever seen I hit 74ft-lbf at a 12lb BP.
Much more than that, I've fear of stripping threads. But even at 74ft-lbf torque on adjust nut, bearings ran cool. I check with IR temp gun.
Setting adjusting nut (inner bearing nut) at a torque of 47ft-lbf, you should see hub flange temp of around 110 -120F IIRC with new OEM bearings. It's been years since I check temp with IR temp gun. But I can assure they run cooler when bearing tighter, provided BP is not over 15LB. They run hot when bearings are loose, period.
Some reasons I see good bearings run hot.
1) Bearing are to loose. bearings will chatter (vibrate) eating into claw washer and back of spindle. Which makes bearings loosen faster. This will cause damage to components over the long term.
2) Oil seal in back of hub flange is installed backward. This put a raised portion of seal out, and it rides on back of spindle. This cause false reading on breakaway pre-load, yielding loose wheel bearings. Also metal of seal shaves off getting into wheel speed sensor and possible eats at seal.
3) Wheel hub cavity not properly pack with grease. To little grease will burn up bearings during HWY long haul trip, and fuse hub to spindle. It will strand the vehicle. To much and bearing run a little hot, not a big deal.
2 (d), 38-57in-lbf torque on adjusting nut. This is only is only starting point.
2 (e) is the key to set bearing tension (preload). This compensates for condition of bearings. If all was always the same FSM would just give a torque spec. The preload is the key to a proper bearing job. But so often either a mistake was made during assembly. OR preload is not set correctly due to angle and or direction at which spring scale is pulled in relation to vehicle.
Setting bearing adjusting nut to 57in-lbf, is way to loose. It is all about the breakaway preload (BP) as read on fish scale.
Examples of what I've seen over the last 100 or so wheel bearings services I've done over past 15+ years:
Bearings in poor condition, I'll see ~20FT-lbf at a 12lb BP.
Brand new bearings clean and properly greased, I'll see ~45ft-lbf at a 12LB BP.
With very good well broken in bearings I'll see ~65ft-lbf at a 12lb BP.
Best bearings I've ever seen I hit 74ft-lbf at a 12lb BP.
Much more than that, I've fear of stripping threads. But even at 74ft-lbf torque on adjust nut, bearings ran cool. I check with IR temp gun.
Setting adjusting nut (inner bearing nut) at a torque of 47ft-lbf, you should see hub flange temp of around 110 -120F IIRC with new OEM bearings. It's been years since I check temp with IR temp gun. But I can assure they run cooler when bearing tighter, provided BP is not over 15LB. They run hot when bearings are loose, period.
Some reasons I see good bearings run hot.
1) Bearing are to loose. bearings will chatter (vibrate) eating into claw washer and back of spindle. Which makes bearings loosen faster. This will cause damage to components over the long term.
2) Oil seal in back of hub flange is installed backward. This put a raised portion of seal out, and it rides on back of spindle. This cause false reading on breakaway pre-load, yielding loose wheel bearings. Also metal of seal shaves off getting into wheel speed sensor and possible eats at seal.
3) Wheel hub cavity not properly pack with grease. To little grease will burn up bearings during HWY long haul trip, and fuse hub to spindle. It will strand the vehicle. To much and bearing run a little hot, not a big deal.
No kidding.
So i just topped off the coolant and took it for a 5 mile drive including 3 miles of freeway driving, rotor hats are hot to touch (understandably) but the dust cap and the hub were barely warm. Much better than my results yesterday. Only thing is I'm afraid of the whole thing falling apart on me knowing how little i torqued it.
I didn't need this can of worms right now.
I've packed the axle hub exactly as shown with grease with the oil seal properly installed with the flat side out.
I could've torqued the hubs to a million and it seems like it wouldn't change preload. Like i said earlier, i almost hit 80 foot pounds last night and was still on the very low end of the fish scale. But the whole assembly ran HOT.
I guess I'll try it again tomorrow. This is getting old and I'm sick of handling and cleaning up grease.
Not sure if this changes anything, but i believe I'm running the original bearings if that makes any difference.
I've got a friend with a 100 I could maybe cross compare. He's got a similar rig with "normal" bearings. I can use a laser thermometer I've got.
I do think a little too tight is better than too loose, but I don't need a glowing hub during an 9 hour road trip with a two year old...
- Thread starter
- #78
Indicator of a job done wrong or right; is 30K miles later at next service. If claw washer is scored, job was not done right. Claw washer on good job come out looking like when they went in, and can be reused either side in.
Tighter is better provide not over 15lb BP on final check. FSM tell us on 3 (d) to recheck BP after torque lock nut (outer nut). I like to take right up to 15lb, which happens when locking nut is torqued to the spec of 47ft-lbf, if, toque was low getting to the 12lb BP on adjusting nut.
If you packed grease properly and assembled properly. Loose wheels are not going to fail. They will just start eating into claw washer and loosen faster and faster, generating more heat from the chatter. But to get the very best life out of all components involved, which includes the very pricey front drive shaft, it is best to follow the FSM to the letter. The FSM says what it means. Follow each step! It is not necessary to check torque as you go, only breakaway preload matters when set adjusting nut.
That said. You can just take off hub flange and lock washer, and leave caliper on. Just make sure as you pull on the spring scale brakes pads are not rubbing/dragging on rotor. Also make sure to pull in direction of travel. Pull just like picture show (in line with plane of vehicle) repeat three times for average of ~12LB. Each pull to be counted must be within 1lb of each other. Each pull must be done the same way exactly and pull very slowly. Pull fast and hard, wheel hub will just breakaway form force rather than pull. Also spin the hub to get one stud to pull on at the very top (dead on top), just as picture in FSM shows. Do not rotor in opposite direct even 1mm to center stud at top. If you miss getting a stud dead on top, keep turning in same diction to next stud. Sometime you'll feel wheel hub spin/rotate easily. Don't stop at easy point/stud on top. Keep turning until you come up on some resistance. Otherwise the hub turns to easy and you'll fiddle with for ever.
Also very important, more so when bearing are loose. Replace the hub flange snap ring. Make sure to check the gap, and use the thickest snap ring you can. 80% of the time I use a 2.4mm snap ring, 15% of time I need a 2.6mm, 5% of time I need to use a 2.8mm snap ring. Never do I need a factory 2.2mm snap ring.
If everything is done by the book. BP & snap ring gap are keys to a good job and reliability. If done correct every 30K miles, axle and wheel bearings can last a million miles perhaps longer.
Trust me on this. I've done so many I can do in my sleep. I always inspect as I pull apart to grade what kind of job was previously done. Most are done poorly, few are tight enough and almost know one replaces snap ring or check gap. We would never see guys on the board say "My front diff blew" Then TM will say "check your C clip (AKA snap rings pops off)" If FSM is followed to the letter.
Tighter is better provide not over 15lb BP on final check. FSM tell us on 3 (d) to recheck BP after torque lock nut (outer nut). I like to take right up to 15lb, which happens when locking nut is torqued to the spec of 47ft-lbf, if, toque was low getting to the 12lb BP on adjusting nut.
If you packed grease properly and assembled properly. Loose wheels are not going to fail. They will just start eating into claw washer and loosen faster and faster, generating more heat from the chatter. But to get the very best life out of all components involved, which includes the very pricey front drive shaft, it is best to follow the FSM to the letter. The FSM says what it means. Follow each step! It is not necessary to check torque as you go, only breakaway preload matters when set adjusting nut.
That said. You can just take off hub flange and lock washer, and leave caliper on. Just make sure as you pull on the spring scale brakes pads are not rubbing/dragging on rotor. Also make sure to pull in direction of travel. Pull just like picture show (in line with plane of vehicle) repeat three times for average of ~12LB. Each pull to be counted must be within 1lb of each other. Each pull must be done the same way exactly and pull very slowly. Pull fast and hard, wheel hub will just breakaway form force rather than pull. Also spin the hub to get one stud to pull on at the very top (dead on top), just as picture in FSM shows. Do not rotor in opposite direct even 1mm to center stud at top. If you miss getting a stud dead on top, keep turning in same diction to next stud. Sometime you'll feel wheel hub spin/rotate easily. Don't stop at easy point/stud on top. Keep turning until you come up on some resistance. Otherwise the hub turns to easy and you'll fiddle with for ever.
Also very important, more so when bearing are loose. Replace the hub flange snap ring. Make sure to check the gap, and use the thickest snap ring you can. 80% of the time I use a 2.4mm snap ring, 15% of time I need a 2.6mm, 5% of time I need to use a 2.8mm snap ring. Never do I need a factory 2.2mm snap ring.
If everything is done by the book. BP & snap ring gap are keys to a good job and reliability. If done correct every 30K miles, axle and wheel bearings can last a million miles perhaps longer.
Trust me on this. I've done so many I can do in my sleep. I always inspect as I pull apart to grade what kind of job was previously done. Most are done poorly, few are tight enough and almost know one replaces snap ring or check gap. We would never see guys on the board say "My front diff blew" Then TM will say "check your C clip (AKA snap rings pops off)" If FSM is followed to the letter.
I really do appreciate your help. Hopefully third times the charm.
I'm not sure if those videos on YouTube are yours or not, but you wiped the shaft that the hub goes on with a microfiber towel, mine was covered in grease. Would that affect readings at all?
I'll update you with my findings tomorrow.
- Thread starter
- #80
Not really. I like to keep very clean so I wiped for video to emphasize. Sometime I grease the spindle, just because I may have washed. Once washed I may allow to sit over night, so it will rust if not greased. Sometimes I don't grease spindle, it's not needed nor does change preload reading.
