Wheel Bearing; FSM Torque to Light or just Right. (4 Viewers)

[2001LC]

If the lock washer is in place, I don't see how either one of the adjustment nuts could loosen up.

Implications: Was set loose on last job (30k ago), or possible loosen as lock nut was removed, just as it tightens when torqueing locking nut on. It may have been at ideal setting, unfortunately we have no way of knowing what it was set to.

What's I find interesting is that claw washer was not grooved/scored. Loose bearings will vibrate/chatter on claw washer, causing scoring. The goal is to find optimum preload, tight enough we don't get chatter, but loose enough bearings move as freely as possible.

 

[khymel5]

Resurrecting this thread because I saw something interesting in the FSM:

Notice: the specified range of 9.5-15.0 is not given in pounds, it's given in pound-feet. The torque applied via the fish scale, and the force applied via the fish scale will have different magnitudes unless the radius is one foot, which it isn't.

For example, if the lever arm (distance from the center of axle shaft to the point where the scale is attached) is 6 inches, then you would need to apply 20 lbs of force to the fish scale to achieve a torque of 10 lb*ft. Perhaps this confusion is the reason the FSM preload appears to be too low, causing scoring and chatter for some.

 

[uHu]

Tis actually f for force, as the main number is given in N (Newton).
Same with the kg (KiloGram) number, you would never use feet with kg, so kgf is kg-force. Just look at the main unit of measure, the N for Newton, and all is clear.
See more here: Conversion of force units newtons N mass gravity unit newton gravitational force Newton - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

 

[khymel5]

Tis actually f for force, as the main number is given in N (Newton).
Same with the kg (KiloGram) number, you would never use feet with kg, so kgf is kg-force. Just look at the main unit of measure, the N for Newton, and all is clear.
See more here: Conversion of force units newtons N mass gravity unit newton gravitational force Newton - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Yep, thanks for catching my mistake

 

[JS114]

Edited 10-14-15 found reading on spring scale is very depended on turning wheel at least one full turn (without backing off at all) then pulling with spring scale at perfect 90 angle in same direction (direction of travel). Have now achieved breakaway preload of ~13 -15lbf at 23ft-lbf of torque to adjusting nut.

Are you getting this 23 ft-lb with a completely clean and dry adjusting nut against a clean/dry claw washer? I had a lot of grease in there and ended up with a final torque on the adjusting nut closer to 40 ft-lbf to achieve 12 lbs on the fish scale. I'm nervous I've overdone it...

 

[abuck99]

Are you getting this 23 ft-lb with a completely clean and dry adjusting nut against a clean/dry claw washer? I had a lot of grease in there and ended up with a final torque on the adjusting nut closer to 40 ft-lbf to achieve 12 lbs on the fish scale. I'm nervous I've overdone it...

....I'll chime in. I had too much grease packed around the adj nut and washer and it did have a negative impact on torque spec.

If you're adjusting bearings with mileage- I've found it takes higher torque to achieve FSM breakaway load spec. 40ft lbs is not uncommon. New bearings require less (closer to 20-25ftlbs)

 

[JS114]

I feel good about it. I did 5 miles on the highway this morning, both hubs and dust caps were cool to the touch. After 20 more miles, I hit them with a FLIR, hubs were both right around 98F, brake rotors were around 200F.

And yes, the PS bearings that took the higher torque were 30k miles old, the DS didn't take as much and were brand new with new races.

 

[2001LC]

I agree with @abuck99.

@JS114 your preloads & temp test are as I would expect. I also retest temps once vehicle sits at least ~10 minutes after drive. Without air cooling, heat radiates out to hub giving better reading of internal (bearings). Making sure hub are not in direct sun.

The bearings themselves will loosen up as they settle in with use/wear. Temperature gun test show hotter temps, sometimes uneven temps from side to side first few hundred miles. Then they'll settle in, loosening up & balancing out temps. I've rechecked breakaway preload at 5K (on high mileage bearings), and found BP drops from ~12.5 to ~6.5lb preload. With new bearings they may even loosen more.

I can't see where wiping grease off claw washer will initially effect starting preload, provide bearings are properly "settle down". Nor does FSM tell us to wipe grease away. Although it may subsequently have an almost immeasurable effect on preload, as thin layers of grease may become thinner with use. Would make interesting test!

That said I'm now using 50ft-lbf on adjusting nut "as a rule of thumb", as to when bearings should be replaced at following service. It's not that I've found bearings running to hot or anything wrong with running bearings at even 72ft-lbf. It just that going much over the locking nuts FSM recommend torque of 47ft-lbf concerns me. Concern is damaging thread of adjusting nut or spindle.

Naturally if bearing don't pass visual test, they should then be replace.

 

[abuck99]

Its been 6,000 miles since I installed new wheel bearings, I may go in and give them a check. I bought the slee spindle grease tool-going to give that a try.

Paul- Ive been using a #2 red wheel bearing grease (non-moly) for the spindle bearings. Do you use the # M1 red synthetic on the spindle bearings?

 

[2001LC]

Its been 6,000 miles since I installed new wheel bearings, I may go in and give them a check. I bought the slee spindle grease tool-going to give that a try.

Paul- Ive been using a #2 red wheel bearing grease (non-moly) for the spindle bearings. Do you use the # M1 red synthetic on the spindle bearings?

Yes, these days I just use M1 #2 in everything.

A Toyota Shop foreman had said to me, "May hear a bit of groan, on cold mornings in slow turns in dips, with #2 but it will not hurt".

You may find this interesting.

I found factory grease untouched in very high mileage bushing & needle bearing looking good. That grease is off white. Interesting moly fortified grease generally have a dark appearance! So I find interesting, the one place regarding axle bushing & bearing Toyota 01 booklets & manuals state Molybdenum.

Drive shaft Thrust bushing & Bearing:

Synthetic oil & lithium soap base chassis grease……..............Owner’s manual page 268 (Thrust bushing)

Synthetic oil & lithium soap base chassis grease NGLI #1…….FSM V2 SA-22 & 23 (bearing & bushing)

Molybdenum-disulfide lithium-base chassis grease….............Scheduled maintenance guide page 23 (drive shaft bearing)

Note: About the only time I use #1 (w/moly) anymore is on difficult propeller shaft slide yoke. I no longer use moly fortified grease on any high speed bearing. Moly retains heat.

 

[2001LC]

One thing to be mindful of when using the Slee spindle tool, don't pump to much grease out back side. If you do scrap some out or it makes checking axle hub flange to snap ring gap, when cavity in backside is full of grease very difficult.

This is why developed the puller set up.

 

[abuck99]

^that is interesting- thank you

My knowledge of application of Moly, or moly fortified lube is in EP applications- typically splined applications like drive shaft- or if necessary inside CV axle(although I prefer Toyota grease for that app). Moly is not good for roller or needle bearing apps. as I understand it it causes skating- which will show up on the spindle as scoring, or in ujoints as premature wear.

One thing to be mindful of when using the Slee spindle tool, don't pump to much grease out back side. If you do scrap some out or it makes checking axle hub flange to snap ring gap, when cavity in backside is full of grease very difficult.

This is why developed the puller set up.
View attachment 1435557

Thank you- that is good info.

 

[jerryb]

This is why developed the puller set up.
View attachment 1435557

How hard do you guys pull on the stub end before you install the snap ring? Is it ok to have zero gap at the flange snap ring interface? I say zero, but I mean that I can't get any feeler in there.

 

[2001LC]

Pull as hard as you can and hold. This squeezes out excess grease that may otherwise give false gap measurement.

The tighter the gap the better, no such thing as to tight!
In above picture you'll see .23 on feeler gauge. The next snap ring up in thickness is .20mm thicker. That yield a final gap of .03mm which is a very good final gap, 0.01mm would be a great gap.

 

[jerryb]

Thanks Paul. I believe my original ring was 2.0 or 2.2 mm, it was extremely loose. I fitted the 2.8 on a fresh install with new races bearings, flange, washers and nuts.
I also saw pretty ugly chatter marks on the previous snap ring and claw washer was pretty ugly.
I might be too tight on everything, I'm doing some more checking today to make sure it's good. I really appreciate all your threads.

 

[2001LC]

Never to tight. I've hit 72ft-lbf torque on wheel bearing adjusting nut to get just 10lb breakaway preload (BL), with a final BL of 12.5lb after locking nut torqued to 47ft-lbf. The bearings where just fine and ran cool. Also worth noting, they loosen within 500 miles down to 8lb BP. These bearing are very tough, and I've yet to fine damage from over tightening. I do find lots of damage from loose BP or wide snap ring gaps!

However I do schedule wheel bearing for replacement next service, if, adjusting nut must be torque much above 57 or 67ft-lbf to get desired BP. My concern here is with threads of adjusting nut & spindle will be over torque on next wheel bearing service (30K miles). I've found each 30K miles service I must increase torque a little higher than last.

 

[Climrox]

This was a very helpful thread for me. I just completed a refresh up front consisting of rotors, pads, bearings (Toyota - made by Timken), and grease on my '05 LX. I also used the Slee tool. My old bearings only had 70k miles on them, but were scored from what I imagine was being too loose for too long. Same with the claw washer, etc. I measured the breakaway preload before complete disassembly and I was at 1.5-2 lbs.

I was worried about the amount of torque it took on the adjusting nut to get within spec (38 ft lbs on one side, and 39 ft lbs on the other), but after reading this I guess I'm not too worried. I ended up with a final breakaway preload of 13-13.5 on both sides.

 

[2001LC]

This was a very helpful thread for me. I just completed a refresh up front consisting of rotors, pads, bearings (Toyota - made by Timken), and grease on my '05 LX. I also used the Slee tool. My old bearings only had 70k miles on them, but were scored from what I imagine was being too loose for too long. Same with the claw washer, etc. I measured the breakaway preload before complete disassembly and I was at 1.5-2 lbs.

I was worried about the amount of torque it took on the adjusting nut to get within spec (38 ft lbs on one side, and 39 ft lbs on the other), but after reading this I guess I'm not too worried. I ended up with a final breakaway preload of 13-13.5 on both sides.

Those are nice final numbers, good job!

I find the Slee tool handy for those times I don't pull knuckle. But grease build-up does make pulling the axle out to check snap ring gap difficult. It's why a use a puller, that is, to make sure I've pull hard enough to squish grease built up between the brass bushing & axle. Driving then rechecking gap works just as well.

What was your final snap ring to hub flange gap?

 

[Climrox]

Those are nice final numbers, good job!

I find the Slee tool handy for those times I don't pull knuckle. But grease build-up does make pulling the axle out to check snap ring gap difficult. It's why a use a puller, that is, to make sure I've pull hard enough to squish grease built up between the brass bushing & axle. Driving then rechecking gap works just as well.

What was your final snap ring to hub flange gap?

Yeah, I definitely took my time to remove the excess old grease that I pushed past the brass bushing. I then attached a bolt to the stub shaft and pulled really hard with a t-handle I made to attach to the bolt. I felt like I pulled as far as I could when I hear the sucking sound coming from the bushing area as it seated back in place, and only then would my snap ring physically be able to fit back in place.

The gap was nonexistent. I measured my old snap rings, and they are the 2.2mm variety. Gap was the same before disassembly as well (none). I probably got lucky in that respect.

Thanks again for a good thread.

 

[2001LC]

Yeah, I definitely took my time to remove the excess old grease that I pushed past the brass bushing. I then attached a bolt to the stub shaft and pulled really hard with a t-handle I made to attach to the bolt. I felt like I pulled as far as I could when I hear the sucking sound coming from the bushing area as it seated back in place, and only then would my snap ring physically be able to fit back in place.

The gap was nonexistent. I measured my old snap rings, and they are the 2.2mm variety. Gap was the same before disassembly as well (none). I probably got lucky in that respect.

Thanks again for a good thread.

You may want to check the gaps again in 500 miles or so. Just remove the grease cap & pull the axle as you did. I use two feeler gauge blades, inserting thinnest blade (0,03 or 0,04mm) first between face of hub flange and back side of snap ring, then slid the thicker blade behind it. This works well for very tight gaps. With a factory 2,2mm snap ring, I'd be very surprised if you could not measure some gap, something around the FSM recommend of <0,20mm.

In most every rig I've serviced much over 100K miles, I've had to go up to a 2,4 or 2,6mm snap ring. Before I started using this tool/clamp set up I didn't find as many wide gaps after greasing axle bearing & bushing.

In this case I moved up to a 2,4mm snap ring, which yielded a 0,03mm gap.