Builds Turbo 1FZFE FZJ80 Build

[scottryana]

Looks like the T61 you picked, is almost identical with the GT4088R at 8psi! If you go diesel what are you thinking?

Yeah, going to hard to find a turbo in its efficiency range at that boost with that size engine. This is kind of a fun project for me if it does not work then my investment is low and I can move forward with the diesel swap I really want.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Looks like the T61 you picked, is almost identical with the GT4088R at 8psi! If you go diesel what are you thinking?

Yeah does not look too bad at all, its got a bit of room to move up if I wanted.

If I did a diesel I would put in a 1HD-T out of a HDJ81, not looking for more power than the 1fz out of it just more range. Plus I can easily make my own fuel if I went Diesel.

 

[guzzla]

I can only assume the engines in the US have a different tune and injectors to what we get here in OZ. When I first installed my turbo, dyno and flow bench testing clearly showed the stock injectors exceeding 80%of their max duty cycle at just 5psi. Sustaining that for any period of time is just asking for engine failure.

As for the EOM ECU, no one where has managed to run over 7psi without the need for at least some kind of piggyback computer to get better control of injector cycles. Again, if you guys can do that, it reinforces my opinion Toyota tune these engines depending on which continent they go to.

Also, I see no point why you wouldn't just upgrade the 6 injectors to the right size, rather than bodging in a 7th injector. After all, the 6 that are already in there are basically in the best positions. The time spent hacking your fuel rail and manifold and the associated plumbing and wiring could easily justify the cost of simply upgrading the 6 original injectors properly.

Having a predetermined boost goal is the wrong way to go about it. Boost pressure really doesn't mean much at all relative to achievable power and torque. Yes, typically more boost increases power and torque but a properly tuned engine can make more power and torque on a lower boost setting, more safely, that an engine with high boost and poor tune. I've read of other turbo setups making the same power as mine but with double the boost. Clearly they are doing it wrong as they sure don't last long.

As for turbo selection, I think you'll be hard pressed to go past the GT3582 in any compressor configuration for these engines. They have been used extensively and proven to make good power everywhere. Where they apply boost and how can be easily controlled with a quality boost controller.

I really think if you're looking for a cheap power upgrade, turboing your 1FZFE isn't for you. Sure, you'll get half decent results at the start, but all your shortcuts along the way will catch up with you at some point, no doubt about it. It's just the nature of the beast and our own need to push things to their limits. Controlling detonation is a huge part of the tuning hurdles. Dropping compression, head work and an ECU that allows for good timing control all work together.

 

[scottryana]

Good inputs, I very rarely do anything cheaply or half decent.

80% max duty cycle is fine, is this at full throttle 5psi boost? Do you know what your injectors are rated for? That would be an easy way to see if Toyota does anything different between continents. If the part numbers are different or the flow is different (which I doubt they are) it could give one of us another option for larger injectors.

I am pretty sure we have several members on here that are running 8lbs of boost with smaller supercharger pulleys and a member who is running 10lbs of boost on a turbo. None have aftermarket fueling at this time.

Sizing injectors is fine, but finding the correct injectors at the right size hasn't proven to be easy. If you have aftermarket options there I would love to see what it is that you are using. I agree that would be the better solution.

I assume you are talking about ignition timing when you are talking about 2 engines making different powers on the same level of boost?? If so I agree but it also increases cylinder pressure, and without going to a full standalone system I don't see this happening with the Toyota ECU.

I guess if it is all figured out, in regards to injector sizing, timing, boost levels without going to a full stand alone motec/haltec/etc system, I have not seen it and would love to hear more. Do you have a dyno of your truck?

I can only assume the engines in the US have a different tune and injectors to what we get here in OZ. When I first installed my turbo, dyno and flow bench testing clearly showed the stock injectors exceeding 80%of their max duty cycle at just 5psi. Sustaining that for any period of time is just asking for engine failure.

As for the EOM ECU, no one where has managed to run over 7psi without the need for at least some kind of piggyback computer to get better control of injector cycles. Again, if you guys can do that, it reinforces my opinion Toyota tune these engines depending on which continent they go to.

Also, I see no point why you wouldn't just upgrade the 6 injectors to the right size, rather than bodging in a 7th injector. After all, the 6 that are already in there are basically in the best positions. The time spent hacking your fuel rail and manifold and the associated plumbing and wiring could easily justify the cost of simply upgrading the 6 original injectors properly.

Having a predetermined boost goal is the wrong way to go about it. Boost pressure really doesn't mean much at all relative to achievable power and torque. Yes, typically more boost increases power and torque but a properly tuned engine can make more power and torque on a lower boost setting, more safely, that an engine with high boost and poor tune. I've read of other turbo setups making the same power as mine but with double the boost. Clearly they are doing it wrong as they sure don't last long.

As for turbo selection, I think you'll be hard pressed to go past the GT3582 in any compressor configuration for these engines. They have been used extensively and proven to make good power everywhere. Where they apply boost and how can be easily controlled with a quality boost controller.

I really think if you're looking for a cheap power upgrade, turboing your 1FZFE isn't for you. Sure, you'll get half decent results at the start, but all your shortcuts along the way will catch up with you at some point, no doubt about it. It's just the nature of the beast and our own need to push things to their limits. Controlling detonation is a huge part of the tuning hurdles. Dropping compression, head work and an ECU that allows for good timing control all work together.

 

[scottryana]

Nevermind Guzzla, I just read your engine thread, you are using a stand alone engine management system. Completely different ball game.

Yes if any of us were to go with Motec or Halltech and we had complete control over injector size, injector pulse width, ignition timing, boost by gear, etc, it wouldn't matter what injectors we went with because it could all be tuned. But that is not the case with a piggy back system tied to Toyota's Closed Loop ECU.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Erm when I said keeping my set-up on the cheap I did not mean in the quality department or skimping on anything I felt it needed. I meant I can make most the parts to fit a turbo myself baring the turbo/WG and BOV. I built most of my 700whp Supra (engine, turbo, ECU and 90% of the other work related to making it reliable). That car is still driving daily for the new owner with 90k kms on it.

I know how easy is can be to mess up an engine with a turbo not set up properly. I also know that stating boost PSI and power as a general term between two different turbo's is pointless. A GT42R on my Supra made 600whp at 18psi but it took my BBT67 28psi to make the same power, the BBT67 was much funner to drive though and offered a much more usable power band. So boost in relation to power is different on each turbo.

I believe the OBDII injectors on the 1fz are 315cc so that would by a general rule of thumb in my experiences mean at 300WHP they would be over 95% duty. That is not taking into account anything other than the size of the Inj them selves I would not push a stock ECU system that far. I have done with standalone's to see the limits of injectors in the past though.

 

[scottryana]

Yes hopefully people understand it isn't the psi of boost that makes the power it is the amount of air. Just like if you want 5 gallons of water in a specific amount of time it has to come out of a jet spray nozzle at a much higher psi than a fire hose.

That is why sizing a turbo is so important. If you have to push that turbo way out side of its design limits to give you the power you want it could be doing lots of different things; surging, choking, over reving, over heating the air, etc. that is why I spent my time plotting my desired power levels on the compressor maps against the pressure ratio and the "corrected mass air flow" which is what actually determines how much power you can make. I suppose I gave too much info considering I know what my goals are when I should have been more general in my discussion of how to pick a turbo so it meets other people's goals.

But if your goals are the same as mine. Haha. About double stock horse power the best turbo I looked at would be the 3076.

The fueling and electronics are all still TBD.

 

[guzzla]

Just to clarify, my injectors were reaching 80% duty cycle at 5psi at just less than half throttle. Just over that and they went to max DC, as Jeremy suggested they would.

These are the injectors I swapped to. They are a direct fit and the OEM wires plug straight in. You can go too large with injector size and that can create its own set of issues like poor idling and injector control at part throttle input. Better to have them spot on for size and projected flow requirements and make any minor changes with fuel pressure, if needed. Also, with mine now running full sequential injection, it idles silky smooth and very quiet.


On a side note but still relevant to this thread, I removed the spark plugs for an inspection after running 8L of octane booster through the fuel tank over 10,000km of driving using crap fuel. As the image shows, the octane booster has heavily contaminated the entire electrode. Of more importance is that there are the early signs of detonation (the little filings) on the electrode. There is also signs of heat migration up the first 4 threads of the plug. These plugs are 1 heat range cooler than standard, since you always run a cooler plug in boosted engine. As they are now, they have done about 30,000km in total. All things considered, not bad for standard, off the shelf plug. I'm not convinced a platinum or other high tech style of plug would look or last any better.

My tuner has advised to run new plugs 1 heat range cooler again and when time permits, put it back on the dyno and maybe take some timing out and check the fueling. Again, just something else to keep in mind going down this road. Now the trick is trying to find such a plug since NGK don't have anything to suit in OZ. Currently waiting to hear back from the Bosch rep for his advice.

 

[scottryana]

Yeah injector sizing will be tricky, I know you went the stand alone route and it is a much better decision but also much more expensive and more difficult with electronically controlled transmission. I think 415cc is a good size. Motec recommends HP/Cylinders * 5.5cc so with 415cc injectors you should be good up to 450hp, on pump. That size fits perfectly with my goal of 400hp at the motor.

 

[scottryana]

Ok last one for the night, but this is a current generation M90, like the TRD Supercharger is based off of at 300hp, you can see by swapping pulleys you are pushing it way out to 54% efficiency, and it has to spin at almost 12,000 rpm's at red line, that is a lot of heat induction this is why I think the TRD Supercharger has to have 93 octane to avoid ping, or really needs an intercooler.

 

[alia176]

I just love charts and graphs......it makes me all warm and fuzzy......I'm enjoying the learning process very much.

 

[jdeitch]

I've had a ton of vehicles and have been turning wrenches for years, both as a hobby and professionally. My wife and I met in a car club and continue to restore cars. My son now works at a hot rod shop while going to college to complete his automotive degree.

I feel as though I know my way around a monkey wrench

I wanted to sincerely tell you all how humbled I am with your conversations regarding this turbo project. Your level of research and attention to detail are very impressive. I thought I knew a lot, but you guys are truly amazing.

I know just enough about this aspect of the industry to understand what you are talking about. I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion and learning a lot too.

My 1994 OBD1 cruiser anxiously awaits an infusion of power.

 

[cruiserdan]

Should pass the computerized and "sniffer" portion of any smog test just fine as long as we put one catalytic converter in the exhaust.

Except for CARB.......

 

[inkpot]

Except for CARB.......

There may be other states that require a visual inspection of OBD II rigs, also. Arizona does if you fail the initial plug in on the port. John

 

[guzzla]

Yeah injector sizing will be tricky, I know you went the stand alone route and it is a much better decision but also much more expensive and more difficult with electronically controlled transmission. I think 415cc is a good size. Motec recommends HP/Cylinders * 5.5cc so with 415cc injectors you should be good up to 450hp, on pump. That size fits perfectly with my goal of 400hp at the motor.

That looks about right.

You're also spot on regarding aftermarket ECUs and computer controlled transmissions. Just so others are aware, I've had a few PMs from this board and seen threads on others about guys having issues with their auto after installing an aftermarket ECU. The OEM trans ECU works in conjunction with the factory ECU to operate. Sometimes that communication is lost with the install of an aftermarket ECU. Not major, but enough to cause some headaches before solving them, as I understand it.

I knew nothing about this at the time and was lucky as mine was a manual. When I swapped it for an A442F electronic gearbox, it was operated by another stand alone computer, the Compu-Shift, so I avoided any trans issues related to aftermarket ECU's.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Yeah injector sizing will be tricky, I know you went the stand alone route and it is a much better decision but also much more expensive and more difficult with electronically controlled transmission. I think 415cc is a good size. Motec recommends HP/Cylinders * 5.5cc so with 415cc injectors you should be good up to 450hp, on pump. That size fits perfectly with my goal of 400hp at the motor.

That is also what I have found in many dyno tuning session. If you plan to run a stock ECU and adjust fuel with a piggy back of some kind make sure you do not go to big on the the injector. With a big injector and a piggy back system when you start taking fuel out (adjusting the MAF signal) it also effects timing usually advancing and that is about the last thing you want to be doing on a ECU mapped for a non turbo engine. It also has effects on Idle quality and transitional throttle points.

I have a friend that does lots of ECU work (standalone Motec, Haltech, Vipec, Bosch and others). When he was working and living in OZ he did quite a few cars where the Standalone was used to tune the fuel and timing. The stock ECU was retained for trans control and other things like idle. Said he should be able to do the same with my 1fz but would need to get the stock ECU plugs to make a jumper as well as Haltech Sprint 500 (or Sport 1000).

 

[scottryana]

Again this is why I am not going to a bigger injector with a piggy back system.....

I still believe without going to a standalone ECU/TCU, the best way to do this is going to be 7th injector and O2 calibration. Like you said if you put bigger injectors in, even if you are using a piggy back to adjust the injector pulse width, while in closed loop the stock computer will continue to cut pulse width and timing until is sees the AFR it wants to see.

Example you swap in 415cc injectors they flow 31% more than stock. The computer uses its "canned" maps and at the regular pulse width you are running way rich at the O2 sensor, so it cuts injector pulse width and timing 30%, now your AFR is higher than you want, and your timing is way off the map, but you want to get lower AFR readings so you adjust with your piggyback, the computer cuts injector pulse width again, to stay at 14.7AFR, it is a loosing battle.

Now with the O2 sensor calibrated to read 14.7 when the engine is at say 12, then the stock computer wouldn't do anything to adjust fueling because it thinks it is happy, then you use a real AFR gauge to monitor and add any additional fueling you might need via 7th injector. Many 7th injector kits allow you to do a separate map just for that injector, so when you do stop running in closed loop and go open loop where the Toyota computer seems to want to run really rich, you also make sure you have proper fueling there. *This is basically what Safari did with their kit* someone please correct me if I am wrong.

It is far from a perfect, solution, the other solution is just to stay within the stock computer's A/F correction capability, but if you do push it a little and tune at say summer high altitude, when you drive down to sea level in the winter your truck wouldn't be able to keep up and would end up running lean, because the % of correction couldn't go high enough to fuel.

So in my mind I see 5 possible solutions based off of budget, power requirements?

1.) TRD Supercharger $3400 ~280hp

2.) Turbo, Stock fueling, and computer low boost, 275-300hp, very similar to the TRD Supercharger

3.) TRD Supercharger with custom A/W IC, A/W radiator and smaller pulley 320hp maxed out injectors

4.) Turbo, A/W IC, A/W radiator, Some type of piggyback system for ECU and fueling, stock TCU, 360-380hp pushed to max 400hp

5.) Full stand alone ECU and TCU, new injectors, new fuel pumps, built head, upgraded transmission, sky is the limit.

I am just talking out loud here, hope no one minds the rambling, but writing a post kind of helps me think options through.

That is also what I have found in many dyno tuning session. If you plan to run a stock ECU and adjust fuel with a piggy back of some kind make sure you do not go to big on the the injector. With a big injector and a piggy back system when you start taking fuel out (adjusting the MAF signal) it also effects timing usually advancing and that is about the last thing you want to be doing on a ECU mapped for a non turbo engine. It also has effects on Idle quality and transitional throttle points.

I have a friend that does lots of ECU work (standalone Motec, Haltech, Vipec, Bosch and others). When he was working and living in OZ he did quite a few cars where the Standalone was used to tune the fuel and timing. The stock ECU was retained for trans control and other things like idle. Said he should be able to do the same with my 1fz but would need to get the stock ECU plugs to make a jumper as well as Haltech Sprint 500 (or Sport 1000).

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Yep you nailed it, just wanted to make sure its clear to other reading this thread later.

I think your list is good, one nice thing about a turbo set-up is even if you start basic (#2) and then find the power bug has bit you its easy to to jump to #4-5 with added on parts/budget.

Looking over that S/C plot you did last night really sums up how that was sized for this motor at X amount of boost. Once you go higher you really start pumping a lot of heat plus the wear on the blower.

 

[alia176]

Again this is why I am not going to a bigger injector with a piggy back system.....

I still believe without going to a standalone ECU/TCU, the best way to do this is going to be 7th injector and O2 calibration. Like you said if you put bigger injectors in, even if you are using a piggy back to adjust the injector pulse width, while in closed loop the stock computer will continue to cut pulse width and timing until is sees the AFR it wants to see.

Example you swap in 415cc injectors they flow 31% more than stock. The computer uses its "canned" maps and at the regular pulse width you are running way rich at the O2 sensor, so it cuts injector pulse width and timing 30%, now your AFR is higher than you want, and your timing is way off the map, but you want to get lower AFR readings so you adjust with your piggyback, the computer cuts injector pulse width again, to stay at 14.7AFR, it is a loosing battle.

Now with the O2 sensor calibrated to read 14.7 when the engine is at say 12, then the stock computer wouldn't do anything to adjust fueling because it thinks it is happy, then you use a real AFR gauge to monitor and add any additional fueling you might need via 7th injector. Many 7th injector kits allow you to do a separate map just for that injector, so when you do stop running in closed loop and go open loop where the Toyota computer seems to want to run really rich, you also make sure you have proper fueling there. *This is basically what Safari did with their kit* someone please correct me if I am wrong.

It is far from a perfect, solution, the other solution is just to stay within the stock computer's A/F correction capability, but if you do push it a little and tune at say summer high altitude, when you drive down to sea level in the winter your truck wouldn't be able to keep up and would end up running lean, because the % of correction couldn't go high enough to fuel.

So in my mind I see 5 possible solutions based off of budget, power requirements?

1.) TRD Supercharger $3400 ~280hp

2.) Turbo, Stock fueling, and computer low boost, 275-300hp, very similar to the TRD Supercharger

3.) TRD Supercharger with custom A/W IC, A/W radiator and smaller pulley 320hp maxed out injectors

4.) Turbo, A/W IC, A/W radiator, Some type of piggyback system for ECU and fueling, stock TCU, 360-380hp pushed to max 400hp

5.) Full stand alone ECU and TCU, new injectors, new fuel pumps, built head, upgraded transmission, sky is the limit.

I am just talking out loud here, hope no one minds the rambling, but writing a post kind of helps me think options through.

6) cough V8 cough !

 

[Tapage]

this thread it's getting better ..

I wonder if environment conditions and fuel quality are the key factors here ..

We don't have good fuel down here even if you see 95 oct ( ROM ) in the gas station .. also we have pretty hi humidity levels with pretty nice temps around 84°F up to 110°F in any regular day ..

detonation it's definitely an issue for us .. ( me ? ) here .. so water / alcohol injection it's my option in that battle .. cheap option when you don't have chance to manipulate timing ..