Tools went through a fire. Metallurgy? Annealing to reuse?

[e9999]

So I was digging in the garage and came across a bunch of tools from when my house burned down. Just for the heck of it I cleaned some up with a wirebrush and some came looking OK, with plenty of character . Obviously they got a tad hot, though. But I would not mind having a few spares wrenches and pliers if can rescussitate them. I would think the steel is very soft though now.

So, I was thinking maybe I can just anneal them to make them hard enough to reuse for mild jobs. Only selected hand tools of course for safety. The simplistic take on that would be to just heat them up with a torch and drop them in water or oil I guess but obviously there is more to it than that since good annealing techniques would depend on the composition. But I have little to lose obviously so I'm up for an experiment. To complicate things a bit, some are stamped "chrome vanadium", others just "drop forged". I don't want to play with a furnace and what not, it would be likely just propane torch and pshhh.... I may just use a spring-loaded centerpunch to see the before and after too.

Anybody knows / has advice on what to do or not?

 

[Koffer]

use them all, my tools have had a little heat treatment ( https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=98501 )and I still beat the snot out of them.

 

[REZARF]

I would just use them too. If they cooled slowly they might not have lost all of their previous heat treatment.

Use an 18mm on something and see if it fails, I doubt it would, but at least if it does... you would never need an 18mm tool on a cruiser

 

[e9999]

use them all, my tools have had a little heat treatment ( https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=98501 )and I still beat the snot out of them.

I think we're talking about a different level of heat treatment, mine have globs of aluminum, slag, and glass melted on the tools....

 

[e9999]

I would just use them too. If they cooled slowly they might not have lost all of their previous heat treatment.

Use an 18mm on something and see if it fails, I doubt it would, but at least if it does... you would never need an 18mm tool on a cruiser

well, isn't it the slow cooling that may have made them soft?

Yes, but no 18mm there. Do these even exist or are they just urban folklore?

 

[LukeZero]

well, isn't it the slow cooling that may have made them soft?

Yes, but no 18mm there. Do these even exist or are they just urban folklore?

I have an old Mac 18mm box end. Doesn't look like they still make it, but they do make this...https://www.mactools.com/portal/sit...010VgnVCM100000104d840aRCRD&vgnextfmt=default

 

[e9999]

yes, I'm sure 18mm do exist, just kidding.
Amazingly, though, I bought a kit of these ratchet wrenches at Costco, metric, and it was missing the 17mm, went from 15 to 19...

 

[brian]

i would just try using them as is. if they fail, i doubt they would snap, but rather bend.

snapping would be from getting too hard(heating, quickly cooling), just plain heating(with slow cooling) them would soften them.

 

[e9999]

i would just try using them as is. if they fail, i doubt they would snap, but rather bend.

snapping would be from getting too hard(heating, quickly cooling), just plain heating(with slow cooling) them would soften them.

sure, I'm not worried about them snapping the way they are now, but using a soft wrench on a hard nut would likely damage the wrench mouth, ergo the idea to anneal them....


(needless to say, all the springs are shot, so ratchets, torque wrenches, some pliers etc are all dead...)

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Did I miss when/how you managed to burn your house down?

If the tools are Craftsman, just replace them - lifetime warranty.

 

[e9999]

Did I miss when/how you managed to burn your house down?

If the tools are Craftsman, just replace them - lifetime warranty.

while back, not a happy event...

yes, I did get a few freebies from them, can't beat that...




so any metallurgist around these parts?

 

[619TOY]

The way I understand it is that annealing a metal makes it softer due to the slow cooling. When an aluminum worker says that he can bend a hardened piece of aluminum, he says that he anneals it by taking away it's temper. He then later re tempers it.

What you are trying to do is re temper the tools right? I don't know the specifics but I've heard of heating the metal to a certain temperature and then quenching it in water or oil is how it is tempered in the first place. Maybe you can google the exact process?

Unfortunately, I think the best bet is just to get the ones warranteed out that you can and ditch the rest for the amount of work involved in saving them. Good luck if you decide to try repairing them.

Edit: I just want all you guys to know that both Ford and Chevy still use 18mm

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

What brand are the tools? Just bend them on purpose and return them to Sears if they're Craftsman. Do them in small batches though, so they don't get suspicous

 

[e9999]

OK, I used the wrong term. Annealing is not it, I don't want them soft.
Tempering is probably not it either, cuz I don't think that involves quenching. Plus you need to know the heating times and all.
Dang.

OK, how about we say I just heat them to red and drop them in water, we'll just call it the red and wet technique. Would that do any good?

 

[MoJ]

Many moons ago we made chisels in shop class. It involved heating and quenching and paying attention to the color of the steel as it cooled to know how long to leave it in the room temp water. As it cools it goes through a range of colors. IIRC, after forming, the chisel was heated until glowing. Then only the tip was dipped into water until a straw color appeared and began to travel through the shank and up to the opposite end. Just before the straw color reached the opposite end the entire thing was dunked until cool. The effect of this was to make the point very hard but allow the rest of the chisel to retain a certain degree of softness so that it would not shatter when struck with a hammer. As I remember it, the faster it's cooled the more brittle it may become but also hard. The trick was to watch the colors in order to find the happy medium between brittle and hard or hard and "tough". BTW, I still have the chisel.

EDIT: Looks like I described hardening but had forgotten the follow-up tempering that's necessary.

 

[MoJ]

Ahhh, I was wrong on the definition. Looks like your tools have already been "annealed" aka softened. You need to harden then temper.

From http://threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html It's all explained.

Definitions:
Annealing - Softening the tool steel for working, by heating to the hardening temperature and cooling slowly. Slow cooling can be accomplished by burying the steel in an insulating medium such as lime or vermiculite and allowing it to cool to room temperature.

Hardening - Heating the steel to the hardening temperature and cooling suddenly by quenching in an oil bath.

Tempering - Reheating the hardened steel to the tempering temperature in order to relieve stress induced in the hardening process, and remove some of the hardness in exchange for toughness. Untempered, hardened tool steel is nearly as brittle as glass.

 

[uberhahn]

Motor Oil Quench

Heat up your tools on the grille (get 'em really toasty...) then drop them in used motor oil (housed in an aluminum pan). Smoke, fire, etc. Then get 'em out, and let them air cool the rest of the way.

I purchased TONS (190,000) tons of steel last year. This is probably the easiest way. However, not really a controlled method, but you should get what you need (would be fun regardless).

uber

 

[Trollhole]

http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/heattreat4.html

Good link.

I've got a Kiln at home. Might have to try to make something.

 

[wfd175]

We had a barn fire in 95. All of our tools burned up.

Will still have some of the box wrenches. However, many of their peers snapped. Some of them snapped rather easily, some it was while a cheater bar was in use. The sockets were really iffy. After my experience, I would consider them knuckle busters for sure. Use them for backup or spares. Don't rely on them for field service.

 

[D'Animal]

Isn't Alex E the knife make on here on MUD that really know his stuff about Annealing, Hardening and Tempering?

I'll send him a link to this.