TJM T17 Bumper is coming Back!

[LandCruiserPhil]

Sometimes. But price wars often breed replication, because innovation is expensive and risky.

Before Dissent Offroad and few of the newer locally-grown fabricators, what innovation did we have? We had a choice of three manufacturers - ARB, TJM and IronMan... all making the same bumper. Slee, Dissent Offroad and others brought us the innovation. So now, TJM sees the 100 market as viable, cranks up a Chinese factory to spit out lightweight bumpers (thinner gauge, less structure, lower quality steel) and returns at a purported low price point. Not seeing how this benefits the 100 market at all.

The T-17 has ALWAYS been a lightly made bumper having owned one.

Price point is only talk until it hits the market

 

[benc]

Competition breeds innovation

Price point is only talk until it hits the market

Agreed, but as @Manhattan said,
Price wars will do nothing but bad for the 100 series after market.
I'm all for compatition, in fact I welcome it. It will force me to continue to make better product!
We will see what the price comes in at but I honesty think if it is released at that price point it will be a huge step backwards for the 100 series market!
As a vendor I'm not worried at all from a business standpoint, but as a owner of a 100 series and landcruiser enthusiast i am.
there are plenty of other platforms that would be very profitable from a business stand point, probably more so than the 100 series, but as a enthusiast I hate to see the 100 series market
Turn into what so many other markets have.
I'm not knocking the tjm products at all, great looking well designed bumper but that price is too low!
I guess time will tell what the actual price will be.
There likley will not be a price war as most vendors on here are likely making less profit that the big name guys, but if people are not willing to pay what our products cost due to low prices coming to market it will simply force vendors to move on.
Then what happens when the big name manufactuers decide again that the U.S 100 market is not profitable enough and pull the products again?
Then We will be back to square one.
Again I'm talking as an enthusiast not a vendor.

 

[Luke111]

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. In looking at paulbgardners post 18 on page 1, I see it mounted to a land cruiser and showing some gaps. I think the curves on my LX are different. So I'm wondering if I will see more gap or less gap. Or perhaps there will be an LX specific version made available.

If you follow the details the bumper on paulgardners LC was a prototype and was scanned on the truck after install so the could make changes and as PhilmDamon stated the design was adjusted to fill those gaps.

Sometimes. But price wars often breed replication, because innovation is expensive and risky.

Before Dissent Offroad and few of the newer locally-grown fabricators, what innovation did we have? We had a choice of three manufacturers - ARB, TJM and IronMan... all making the same bumper. Slee, Dissent Offroad and others brought us the innovation. So now, TJM sees the 100 market as viable, cranks up a Chinese factory to spit out lightweight bumpers (thinner gauge, less structure, lower quality steel) and returns at a purported low price point. Not seeing how this benefits the 100 market at all.

At the end of the day I don't think Slee or Dissent will be effected by this bumper... some will see the benefits of thicker gauge and structure
and won't blink about the price and there are many that price will be the determining factor just like the company's making drawer systems.
You have Trekboxx at the top of the market and are not effected by all the less expensive systems. BTW paulgardner has the $4600 Trekboxx
in the back of his LC.

 

[bamabrock]

I missed why they were redesigning the bumper if they previously had been making them for a vehicle that has been out of production for 10 years. What changed?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

At this point price is just speculation lets wait and see

 

[benc]

If you follow the details the bumper on paulgardners LC was a prototype and was scanned on the truck after install so the could make changes and as PhilmDamon stated the design was adjusted to fill those gaps.


At the end of the day I don't think Slee or Dissent will be effected by this bumper... some will see the benefits of thicker gauge and structure
and won't blink about the price and there are many that price will be the determining factor just like the company's making drawer systems.
You have Trekboxx at the top of the market and are not effected by all the less expensive systems. BTW paulgardner has the $4600 Trekboxx
in the back of his LC.

100% agreed.
I guess what I'm trying to say is the 100 series market in general will be affected.

I bought a 2016 Tacoma about a year ago and sold my 100 as I figured I will need to branch out a bit of this was going to be a full time gig and the 3rd gen Tacoma market is huge right now.
That being said, I have recently bought another 100 and decided to make that my #1 focus and have not even released anything for the Tacoma yet.
I see new guy coming about with front bumpers that have also mentioned sliders, rear bumpers, roof racks ect, ect.
If we don't support these guys there is plenty of talent and skills that they could be very profitable with building products for other platforms.
The guys like slee offroad, bump it offroad, cruiser outfit, gamiviti, Trekboxx, and now dissent offroad, Kavik, land shark and many others. These are the guys that have took a gamble to bring some awsome innovative American made products, that support the landcruiser community, these are the guys that I want to spend my money with, if we do we will only see more great options become available.
Ultimately if we continue to support them they will continue to support the 100 series market.

 

[benc]

I'll put this out there as well,

I have no problem with supporting tjm as they do offer great products!
Just not at that price point, I feel the deciding factor for the consumer should be function and what best fits their needs and tast, not price, if all prices were similar this would remain the deciding factor.

 

[470SNC]

This is one of my all time favorite looking bumpers for the 100, cant wait for the return! Been wanting one since I first laid eyes on one!

 

[lx470LA]

My 2 cents.

I strongly support local vendors when they make high quality products. In fact I just received my BIOR bumper from Mike last week. Great product and good service.

However, I should point out that all these "support local vendors comments" occurred only after they mentioned that the bumpers might be made in Asia (not confirmed yet). Obviously we had no problems at the beginning that a lot of us are buying from Australian companies when we were praising TJM and ARB's products.

I would definitely choose US made products when the products made in US and Asia (or anywhere else) are comparable. But I sense that there is anti-Asian sentiment here.

Isn't it ironic here to slam made in Asia products in a forum focusing on Japanese vehicles?

 

[Manhattan]

...However, I should point out that all these "support local vendors comments" occurred only after they mentioned that the bumpers might be made in Asia (not confirmed yet). Obviously we had no problems at the beginning that a lot of us are buying from Australian companies when we were praising TJM and ARB's products.

I would definitely choose US made products when the products made in US and Asia (or anywhere else) are comparable. But I sense that there is anti-Asian sentiment here.

Isn't it ironic here to slam made in Asia products in a forum focusing on Japanese vehicles?

Nope, i lobbed the first "support the guys supporting us" post back on Page 1 - well ahead of any ref to Asia.

 

[shanester]

It's tough but not impossible.
What makes it tough is low prices flooding the market!
If a manufacturer wants to make stuff overseas that's fine, but when a manufactuer gets product made overseas and then prices it at 1/2 the price of American made products, that is what kills the American market and quality.
As a buyer that price looks great!
As a 100% American made manufacture who takes extreme pride in every bumper I build it is frustrating.
I think there is definitely a place for overseas manufacturing but if your going to do so don't put the American manufacturers out of business by under pricing product.
It's probably not my place to even say anything but if we let this made in China stuff flood the 100 series market the 100 series comunity will ultimately suffer!
There are several vendors on here that took a gamble a put a ton of time and money to develop great American made products for a very slim market and have plans for many more products to come,
Myself included. But, if we don't support them they will be forced to move on to different markets and you will see many of these vendors stop development for the 100 series and move on to focus on other platforms.
Some food for thought before ordering product.

Come on, benc. Business is business. When has it ever been fair? They priced their product to be competitive, and it's a decision any business owner would make. The cost of sitting around complaining is more customers lost to the competition.

If you believe your products to be superior, it's your job to market them that way. If you want to acquire your ideal customer, the guy that pays more attention to the fine details like the quality of steel, than its your job to make sure that potential customer sees the value in paying a higher price. It's why people buy a Toyota over a Kia.

The 100 series community will not suffer. I mean, come on. I'm a business owner in a different market (commercial video production) and there is always someone with a camera who can do it cheaper. If I were to sit back and complain about how my competition's pricing is hurting mine and other businesses, I'd be OUT of business. What I decided to do is make sure I position my company so that my ideal customer sees an immense amount of differentiation between me and my competition. When they see my business, they're not even thinking twice. If you're truly building something better, you can absolutely win over the market, and you should.

This is off of the top of my head, but for someone like you this would mean a few extra features that no one else offers. It could mean your turn around time gets better. It could mean you revamp your website and launch a campaign on your story or how you use superior steel. One thing you can't do is nothing.

TJM is making some buzz with this price point, so now it's the competitions time to step up.

 

[benc]

My 2 cents.

I strongly support local vendors when they make high quality products. In fact I just received my BIOR bumper from Mike last week. Great product and good service.

However, I should point out that all these "support local vendors comments" occurred only after they mentioned that the bumpers might be made in Asia (not confirmed yet). Obviously we had no problems at the beginning that a lot of us are buying from Australian companies when we were praising TJM and ARB's products.

I would definitely choose US made products when the products made in US and Asia (or anywhere else) are comparable. But I sense that there is anti-Asian sentiment here.

Isn't it ironic here to slam made in Asia products in a forum focusing on Japanese vehicles?

I have no issue with where the product is made, I have plenty of made in China products, probably more than I think, it's the under pricing that bothers me.
Again the pricing is just speculation now but i wouldn't of even chimed in if that low number wasn't mentioned.
I'm glad to see tjm coming back to the U.S market but if they underprice the products it will not be good in the long run.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

A 10% increase on the T-17 from 2006 prices is wishful thinking on anyone part.

 

[benc]

Come on, benc. Business is business. When has it ever been fair? They priced their product to be competitive, and it's a decision any business owner would make. The cost of sitting around complaining is more customers lost to the competition.

If you believe your products to be superior, it's your job to market them that way. If you want to acquire your ideal customer, the guy that pays more attention to the fine details like the quality of steel, than its your job to make sure that potential customer sees the value in paying a higher price. It's why people buy a Toyota over a Kia.

The 100 series community will not suffer. I mean, come on. I'm a business owner in a different market (commercial video production) and there is always someone with a camera who can do it cheaper. If I were to sit back and complain about how my competition's pricing is hurting mine and other businesses, I'd be OUT of business. What I decided to do is make sure I position my company so that my ideal customer sees an immense amount of differentiation between me and my competition. When they see my business, they're not even thinking twice. If you're truly building something better, you can absolutely win over the market, and you should.

This is off of the top of my head, but for someone like you this would mean a few extra features that no one else offers. It could mean your turn around time gets better. It could mean you revamp your website and launch a campaign on your story or how you use superior steel. One thing you can't do is nothing.

TJM is making some buzz with this price point, so now it's the competitions time to step up.

As I said, probably not my place and I should have stayed out of it, that would make the most sense business wise!
But for me I was a enthusiast long befor a vendor, so really most of my thoughts are coming from there not as a vendor.
Not complaining at all, simply suggesting that when looking to buy a product for your 100 look to the vendors that have listened to your requests and have brought some great product to market for the 100 series platform rather than buying under priced items because they are worth a try at that price.
The fact is that the U.S spec 100 is an extremly slim market to start with, this is why there are very few options available, if to many under priced products come to market it will not hurt the vendors one bit, they will move on to larger more profitably markets but it will absolutely hurt the consumer.
As a business this market really is not a big money maker and most vendors on here are not doing it for the money but for the love of the 100 series platform and the and the landcruiser community in general. That being said I don't think one under priced bumper will change that but I do think it will be a step back.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it

 

[jdayment]

I have no issue with where the product is made, I have plenty of made in China products, probably more than I think, it's the under pricing that bothers me.
Again the pricing is just speculation now but i wouldn't of even chimed in if that low number wasn't mentioned.
I'm glad to see tjm coming back to the U.S market but if they underprice the products it will not be good in the long run.

I am sure the price would go up if they were using a thicker gauge steel like what you are offering I don't feel the T17 compares anywhere with what you offer. It is just another piece that is being added to the pie. When I look at it your bumper for some people might be overkill for their needs to where a T17 might be just right for what they need a little added protection and can take a winch. I have been talking it over with the wife and as much as I like the price point on the T17 it will not meet our needs because it will be weaker that others based on specs we have seen so far.

 

[AndersN]

I think a head to head test video is in order when it releases.

 

[benc]

Somtimes it sucks being a vendor .
I'm used to saying whatever I want and now I guess I have to tune it down a bit and just sit back and watch
Or open an account under a different name

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

The plain and simple dynamics is that TJM, etc has their profit margin based off of 1000 or so units at a time.. Where the small US fabricator has the same profit margin based on 10-20 units at a time..

If you break the numbers down... its the same % of money each company is making. A small fabricator just needs to deal with those numbers and hope they can keep up with their own business model, quality and lead times.

I spoke to a TJM rep at an expo several years ago and asked if myself, Luke, Dave etc.. made any impact on their bottom line and the rep replied "WHO?"

I know of 4-5 more overseas front and rear bumper fabricators coming to the 100 series market in the next few months. ALL seem to think that the USA 100 series market has the volume to support their move.

IMO, if you asked a major fabricator to double/triple their prices so you could compete (be in the same range) they could simply reply..... why don't your double/triple your output and lower your prices to get to where we are.

J

 

[aljogav]

i totally understand what benc is saying. as a small business owner myself, i felt the same way when costco offered competing products at a lower price point. a lot of small mom & pops businesses felt the same way and had to close. but business is business. shanester couldn't have said it any better. bottom line, i think the 100 series market will do just fine.

 

[Phil Damon]

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. In looking at paulbgardners post 18 on page 1, I see it mounted to a land cruiser and showing some gaps. I think the curves on my LX are different. So I'm wondering if I will see more gap or less gap. Or perhaps there will be an LX specific version made available.

The gaps you see in the pictures of Paul's bumper have been addressed in the production parts. When the production parts arrive, we will want to do a test fit on an LX470 to verify fitment.