Sweet pin dude
The Official 1HD-T/FT Fuel Pump Mod Tuning Thread
- Thread starter ForealBoreal
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the one i make will be designed to suck ,lol.
- Thread starter
- #323
interesting approach for the profile.
Looks neat.
Looks neat.
Yanmar marine version of the 1HD-FT motors - In addition to the different IP with the 14mm plunger, I found out that the Injectors are different too. The HP and Torque are rated quite a bit higher than the Toyota version. HP Yanmar = 315, Toyota = 168. Torque FT-LB Yanmar = 516, Toyota = 280. Without a doubt the marine version of the motor has opened up a few ponies.
Here are the injector specs and differences...now I know another reason why Jan's 80 goes like stink. So, perhaps another upgrade is to go with the Yanmar IP, and change injectors or tune to the following specifications. Thoughts from the collective Mud Think-Tank?
Toyota #2 Opening Pressure Specs
Yanmar #2 Opening Pressure Specs = 1000 PSI higher!
Toyota #1 Opening Pressure Specs
Yanmar #1 Opening Pressure Specs - also around 1000 PSI higher
Yanmar Engine Specs
Yanmar Power Curve
Here are the injector specs and differences...now I know another reason why Jan's 80 goes like stink. So, perhaps another upgrade is to go with the Yanmar IP, and change injectors or tune to the following specifications. Thoughts from the collective Mud Think-Tank?
Toyota #2 Opening Pressure Specs
Yanmar #2 Opening Pressure Specs = 1000 PSI higher!
Toyota #1 Opening Pressure Specs
Yanmar #1 Opening Pressure Specs - also around 1000 PSI higher
Yanmar Engine Specs
Yanmar Power Curve
so I'm wondering, I've got some questions about tuning my gX gturbo - is this still a place that I can get some group consensus, or has it degenerated too far into pissing contests that nobody wants to contribute? Hopefully I can get some help, but maybe i'll wait and see if anyone is prepared to put their hand up 'for free'...?! I'm hoping that we can still all help the punters out who are prepared to have a go, but by the sound of things, I'm not so sure. Prove me wrong?
thx.
thx.
Dude, ask a question, that was just silly
Heh, your funny. Have fun with your turbo.
mudgudgeon
Resident galah
wow. its been a long time since i looked in on this thread.
good to see some clued up fellas willing to share their learnings, observations etc with fellow enthusiasts.
It a shame to see a large fragile ego taking up so much band-width though.
Over the years I've had a few people here and other forums contact me (including afore-mentioned ego) and quiz me about what I'd done and learnt about these pumps and tuning up the 1HD-T. As an enthusiast, like so many here, who enjoys tinkering, finding solutions, info etc and having a go without spending a lot of $$, I'll happily share what I know.
What I know has been gleaned (as others have done) from Toyota forums, Cummins forums, VW, Landrover, Patrol, you name it, then trial and error to find what works.
It seems that not a lot of what is discussed in this thread is rare, unobtainable, or brilliantly original ideas. There's some solid knowledge about, just not all collected in a Toyota forum. The fact that people are posting pics of commercially available aftermarket products shows this.
To hear someone who has sought info and knowledge from myself and others, then turn around and bleat about intellectual property being ripped off, people stealing ideas etc rubs me up badly (particularly when not so much as a cheers was offered in return for my detailed responses to questions).
TBB, no doubt you have put together some quality gear and it is getting some decent raps. but there is an old adage, in business there are three basic fundamentals. Quality, Service and Price. As a customer, choose two of the three, you can't have all three.
With your approach in responding to criticism and comments on forums, you've turned off a potential customer (clutch is rooted). Instead of spending my hard earned, I'll go out of my way to find alternatives.
Kudos to the likes of Yotahead, Foreal Boreal, Gerg, Gbentink, Dougal and others who share what they know and ideas over and over again with no expectation of a return.
good to see some clued up fellas willing to share their learnings, observations etc with fellow enthusiasts.
It a shame to see a large fragile ego taking up so much band-width though.
Over the years I've had a few people here and other forums contact me (including afore-mentioned ego) and quiz me about what I'd done and learnt about these pumps and tuning up the 1HD-T. As an enthusiast, like so many here, who enjoys tinkering, finding solutions, info etc and having a go without spending a lot of $$, I'll happily share what I know.
What I know has been gleaned (as others have done) from Toyota forums, Cummins forums, VW, Landrover, Patrol, you name it, then trial and error to find what works.
It seems that not a lot of what is discussed in this thread is rare, unobtainable, or brilliantly original ideas. There's some solid knowledge about, just not all collected in a Toyota forum. The fact that people are posting pics of commercially available aftermarket products shows this.
To hear someone who has sought info and knowledge from myself and others, then turn around and bleat about intellectual property being ripped off, people stealing ideas etc rubs me up badly (particularly when not so much as a cheers was offered in return for my detailed responses to questions).
TBB, no doubt you have put together some quality gear and it is getting some decent raps. but there is an old adage, in business there are three basic fundamentals. Quality, Service and Price. As a customer, choose two of the three, you can't have all three.
With your approach in responding to criticism and comments on forums, you've turned off a potential customer (clutch is rooted). Instead of spending my hard earned, I'll go out of my way to find alternatives.
Kudos to the likes of Yotahead, Foreal Boreal, Gerg, Gbentink, Dougal and others who share what they know and ideas over and over again with no expectation of a return.
- Thread starter
- #329
Koodoos to Yotahed for this below.
Its going to be a balance to find your optimum spring tension.
You want the pin to travel full depth for maximum fuel.
With the far right fuel depending on your turbo it would be nice to find that sweet spot of cruising boost for the highway where your not fueling excessively so to speak. Mainly being the pin is indexed right before the steep part of the roller coaster (remember the pin travels down into the boost comp to fuel more)
That way you can punch it, your boost will launch up, and you will be into more fuel.
Reason why TBB uses the pin he does it to maximize full throw and get max fueling of the aneroid.
By allowing the pin to be hollow so to speak at the higher boost levels it gets his pin to full throw.
Its going to be a balance to find your optimum spring tension.
You want the pin to travel full depth for maximum fuel.
With the far right fuel depending on your turbo it would be nice to find that sweet spot of cruising boost for the highway where your not fueling excessively so to speak. Mainly being the pin is indexed right before the steep part of the roller coaster (remember the pin travels down into the boost comp to fuel more)
That way you can punch it, your boost will launch up, and you will be into more fuel.
Reason why TBB uses the pin he does it to maximize full throw and get max fueling of the aneroid.
By allowing the pin to be hollow so to speak at the higher boost levels it gets his pin to full throw.
Ha ha too funny... Surely you cant be serious. You know how I learnt to tune? I spent a long time tuning my own truck in many different approaches. I then started tuning mates trucks to see if it was transferable (cause and effect/settings). Any single person here can go and do the same! Its really not rocket science.
After getting the results I wanted, I was happy to show everyone at home how I did this. But due to criticism and frankly ungrateful w@nkers. I thought fine, I will just tune trucks myself, and have done. Another 3 today even. 1 for a highly regarded employee of ARB. All funds go straight back into R&D. I have not taken a single bit of info from yourself mudgudgeon. And I always give credit where credit is due. Sure I could help bigtime. But simply choose not too.
= in the above pictures you have not allowed enough room for the fueling pin itself. And every truck that runs different loads/intercooler/fuel pump/injector condition etc etc will require a different grind. Its that simple
I think TBB may have just answered my question above anyway in a round about kind of way, but I'll have a go anyway.
Running HD-FT stock, gX turbo, safari fmic, auto/nomad, FZ airbox lid, safari snorkel,
Towing heavy tandem work trailer daily
Seem to have a flat spot at 19psi and unsure of how to get around it. Turbo happy with egt and AFR up to that point, leans off midrange and then happy fuels to about 15-1/24psi momentarily and then settles about 20-1/23.5psi WOT
I drive the thing sedately and with mechanical sympathy, but I seem to have a large flat spot at 19psi. Throttle position doens't really encourage it to go past that until you're pressing the pedal hard into the firewall. You can kind of play with the accelerator whilst you're getting up to speed and it won't really budge past 19psi until you really push it hard down, yet back at about 50% throttle position, you're still seeing 19psi. After the TC locks up, you have a better chance at getting past 19psi, but you have to be pretty savage still.
Fresh air cleaner also.
So, is it a matter of getting more fuel from the pin? Main screw seems to be set about right, albeit a touch high but I'm careful to watch the guages in those situations, so it gets max fuel it needs for 24psi. Its reasonable down low for AFR/EGT/Smoke, nothing standout. But its just this flat spot...!? I'm wondering if the taper needs to be cut back progressively harder towards max position as you can see in the screen shot above? I'll try to dig up a shot of the pin grind, but its fairly standard for a first attempt gturbo grind. Just deepened up a lot more than standard, not much detail in the profile.
Also, wondering if someone can clarify for me - does the pin move up evenly with the increase in boost? Ie 1psi for .5mm or whatever (its not .5mm but you know what I mean) Is it linear movement or does it ramp up? Trying to work out roughly where 19psi would fall on the pin if 24psi is max...
Thanks in advance for any help proffered.
Running HD-FT stock, gX turbo, safari fmic, auto/nomad, FZ airbox lid, safari snorkel,
Towing heavy tandem work trailer daily
Seem to have a flat spot at 19psi and unsure of how to get around it. Turbo happy with egt and AFR up to that point, leans off midrange and then happy fuels to about 15-1/24psi momentarily and then settles about 20-1/23.5psi WOT
I drive the thing sedately and with mechanical sympathy, but I seem to have a large flat spot at 19psi. Throttle position doens't really encourage it to go past that until you're pressing the pedal hard into the firewall. You can kind of play with the accelerator whilst you're getting up to speed and it won't really budge past 19psi until you really push it hard down, yet back at about 50% throttle position, you're still seeing 19psi. After the TC locks up, you have a better chance at getting past 19psi, but you have to be pretty savage still.
Fresh air cleaner also.
So, is it a matter of getting more fuel from the pin? Main screw seems to be set about right, albeit a touch high but I'm careful to watch the guages in those situations, so it gets max fuel it needs for 24psi. Its reasonable down low for AFR/EGT/Smoke, nothing standout. But its just this flat spot...!? I'm wondering if the taper needs to be cut back progressively harder towards max position as you can see in the screen shot above? I'll try to dig up a shot of the pin grind, but its fairly standard for a first attempt gturbo grind. Just deepened up a lot more than standard, not much detail in the profile.
Also, wondering if someone can clarify for me - does the pin move up evenly with the increase in boost? Ie 1psi for .5mm or whatever (its not .5mm but you know what I mean) Is it linear movement or does it ramp up? Trying to work out roughly where 19psi would fall on the pin if 24psi is max...
Thanks in advance for any help proffered.
Hi rebuilt80,
I think the problem is the same as 90% others experience who try to tune themselves and usually wind the main fuel screw in too far searching for the holy grail in power
It's simply that the spring tension isn't high enough such that pin depression at 24psi is enough to run the aneroid pin profile follower up the reverse taper (overboost fuel cut).
You can get around this when tuning by:
A) increasing spring tension
B) using washers installed over the pin to limit maximum depression
C) grind away that area.
I typically do C, because it also allows better fuel control - I grind the increased fuel profile further into the pin in the area it's usually defueled. So this gives a longer pin travel/wider area of operation for the spring
As a Gturbo customer I would be happy to email you a tuning guide. The contents in it are what I have posted on MUD over the last 6 years anyway, but finding it all would be onerous...
I think the problem is the same as 90% others experience who try to tune themselves and usually wind the main fuel screw in too far searching for the holy grail in power
It's simply that the spring tension isn't high enough such that pin depression at 24psi is enough to run the aneroid pin profile follower up the reverse taper (overboost fuel cut).
You can get around this when tuning by:
A) increasing spring tension
B) using washers installed over the pin to limit maximum depression
C) grind away that area.
I typically do C, because it also allows better fuel control - I grind the increased fuel profile further into the pin in the area it's usually defueled. So this gives a longer pin travel/wider area of operation for the spring
As a Gturbo customer I would be happy to email you a tuning guide. The contents in it are what I have posted on MUD over the last 6 years anyway, but finding it all would be onerous...
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Thanks Graeme, appreciate the comments.
I'd love to see any additional tuning guide you could send me. I understand what you're saying, and have originally ground the pin as per your instructions that come with the turbo (I'd like to make the grind a tad more concave towards the last third to bring in a bit more fuel in the mid section) and tuned it to a safe variation of your instructions. I don't recall exactly how many turns I put on the star wheel but it was quite a few, and was under the impression that I was close. Early boost was good and reasonably clean as per your instructions, its just the flat spot at the upper end that's confusing me. I don't understand the theory required to get it to push through that spot - is it more RPM/ gas pressure/ more fuel or more air?! As is the case with most tuning, I suspect its a combination of both, it just seems to be a very strange spot to have a flat spot.
There is no flat section left on my pin either, the grind goes all the way back to max fuel which is a continuation of the original grind in effect, just a little deeper.
Again, I'm just trying to understand what is causing a flat spot in the boost curve, effectively... I can't see how the spring tension is affecting it. If its travelling too far and trimming fuel back out, then surely it wouldn't go past the 19psi or so, and the EGT wouldn't rise up hard after it pushes past (under WOT) unless there is some sort of fuel pumper/secondary I don't know about?! That to me says its getting the fuel it needs through to the max, its just got a flat spot. My thought would be to add a concave in right towards the end similar to the pictures a few posts back ^^^ More fuel around that point would help to push it through and continue to raise boost/turbine pressure/BC pin etc. (this is very ghetto backyard thinking, but everyone starts somewhere I guess!)
Am I close, or is the key in the spring tension do you think? Happy for anyone to chime in that can help, I'm surely not the first to experience something like this during tuning.
Thanks,
I'd love to see any additional tuning guide you could send me. I understand what you're saying, and have originally ground the pin as per your instructions that come with the turbo (I'd like to make the grind a tad more concave towards the last third to bring in a bit more fuel in the mid section) and tuned it to a safe variation of your instructions. I don't recall exactly how many turns I put on the star wheel but it was quite a few, and was under the impression that I was close. Early boost was good and reasonably clean as per your instructions, its just the flat spot at the upper end that's confusing me. I don't understand the theory required to get it to push through that spot - is it more RPM/ gas pressure/ more fuel or more air?! As is the case with most tuning, I suspect its a combination of both, it just seems to be a very strange spot to have a flat spot.
There is no flat section left on my pin either, the grind goes all the way back to max fuel which is a continuation of the original grind in effect, just a little deeper.
Again, I'm just trying to understand what is causing a flat spot in the boost curve, effectively... I can't see how the spring tension is affecting it. If its travelling too far and trimming fuel back out, then surely it wouldn't go past the 19psi or so, and the EGT wouldn't rise up hard after it pushes past (under WOT) unless there is some sort of fuel pumper/secondary I don't know about?! That to me says its getting the fuel it needs through to the max, its just got a flat spot. My thought would be to add a concave in right towards the end similar to the pictures a few posts back ^^^ More fuel around that point would help to push it through and continue to raise boost/turbine pressure/BC pin etc. (this is very ghetto backyard thinking, but everyone starts somewhere I guess!)
Am I close, or is the key in the spring tension do you think? Happy for anyone to chime in that can help, I'm surely not the first to experience something like this during tuning.
Thanks,
Graeme, TBB, Yotahead or anyone else.
Does anyone know of the spring rate is linear, or does it tighten up with compression? Is there a point where the star wheel is so high that the spring will actually restrict the travel of the B/C pin? Is the starting position of the B/C pin in relation to the metering rod pretty much constant no matter the spring tension, ie when you fit the cap on (with the smoke screw/slanted disk ground off and the top of the B/C pin ground down to the nut) does the pin always start in the same position, and then its just a matter of spring tension, or does spring tension drastically change the B/C pin starting point.
Does anyone know of the spring rate is linear, or does it tighten up with compression? Is there a point where the star wheel is so high that the spring will actually restrict the travel of the B/C pin? Is the starting position of the B/C pin in relation to the metering rod pretty much constant no matter the spring tension, ie when you fit the cap on (with the smoke screw/slanted disk ground off and the top of the B/C pin ground down to the nut) does the pin always start in the same position, and then its just a matter of spring tension, or does spring tension drastically change the B/C pin starting point.
- Thread starter
- #335
the spring does tighten up with compression.
It can affect it depending on how much you have the start wheel turned out (more spring tension) or turned into the housing (decreased spring tension)
It can affect it depending on how much you have the start wheel turned out (more spring tension) or turned into the housing (decreased spring tension)
hi all, just read 17 pages and learnt a lot.
some of you may be interested in this vid but its not in English. good if somebody could translate.
some of you may be interested in this vid but its not in English. good if somebody could translate.
My French is good enough to follow what he is saying, and understand at least 90%. IMHO, there is really no need to translate, as the video speaks for itself. It shows how easy it is to change out the pin for one with a different profile.
Following up on my post a little while back, I've made some changes;
Tightened the spring up two full turns - this was to get the starting position of the B/C pin high enough so that the fueling pin starts at the full diameter section of the pin.
added one 2.1mm shim under the pin to restrict its travel depth
Ground down the top slanted disc/smoke screw as much as I dare without compromising the o-ring groove.That resulted in a slightly less responsive feel down low, AFR was less likely to move off '30' or 'at rest' during normal suburban driving and was still experiencing 800+ degrees (pre) at full load (we're talking maybe 10 sec of WOT/foot to the floor up a gradual hill) however AFR's looked to stablize around 20-21.
Wanted a bit more low down response so loosened the spring off 1/4 turn and added another 2.1mm washer under the pin to try and restrict top end fuel a little. AFR's became a bit more responsive
Still seeing the higher temps at the top end so trimmed 1/3rd turn of fuel out of the main screw.Idle has dropped about 30-40RPM
AFR has moved a little closer to 30 during each spike of movement. LEaving the lights it would dip to 25 say previously and then return to 28, now it dips to 27 and returns to 29. Its moved up the scale of lean-ness but seems to head the right way quickly (lean) when the boost catches up to the fuel.
BUT, when standing on it at 95 and getting to 100, AFR is stable about 16-17...!!
This was not the case before. Fuel screw must have been wound the correct way as the idle dropped so its not additional fuel... Pin has 4mm underneath it so it shouldn't be getting too much fuel and boost seems to be not that keen to move past 22-23. If the pin is restricted for depth by the washers, surely we shouldn't be getting to much fuel, but if the boost was able to go higher, that would correct the AFR issue...!?
Seems like I'm starting to chase my tail a little. Happy with most of it, just the fueling at WOT with the TC locked up. Did a test yesterday with the TC manually locked up from 60km to 100kmh, AFR was stable around 16-17 as well, but thats not a normal driving situation. Fairly smoky and obviously very hot... All these tests have been done towing my work trailer which is fairly heavy at about 2.5tonne. Ambient temps's are around the 25deg.
Thoughts to address the top end??
Thanks
Tightened the spring up two full turns - this was to get the starting position of the B/C pin high enough so that the fueling pin starts at the full diameter section of the pin.
added one 2.1mm shim under the pin to restrict its travel depth
Ground down the top slanted disc/smoke screw as much as I dare without compromising the o-ring groove.That resulted in a slightly less responsive feel down low, AFR was less likely to move off '30' or 'at rest' during normal suburban driving and was still experiencing 800+ degrees (pre) at full load (we're talking maybe 10 sec of WOT/foot to the floor up a gradual hill) however AFR's looked to stablize around 20-21.
Wanted a bit more low down response so loosened the spring off 1/4 turn and added another 2.1mm washer under the pin to try and restrict top end fuel a little. AFR's became a bit more responsive
Still seeing the higher temps at the top end so trimmed 1/3rd turn of fuel out of the main screw.Idle has dropped about 30-40RPM
AFR has moved a little closer to 30 during each spike of movement. LEaving the lights it would dip to 25 say previously and then return to 28, now it dips to 27 and returns to 29. Its moved up the scale of lean-ness but seems to head the right way quickly (lean) when the boost catches up to the fuel.
BUT, when standing on it at 95 and getting to 100, AFR is stable about 16-17...!!
This was not the case before. Fuel screw must have been wound the correct way as the idle dropped so its not additional fuel... Pin has 4mm underneath it so it shouldn't be getting too much fuel and boost seems to be not that keen to move past 22-23. If the pin is restricted for depth by the washers, surely we shouldn't be getting to much fuel, but if the boost was able to go higher, that would correct the AFR issue...!?Seems like I'm starting to chase my tail a little. Happy with most of it, just the fueling at WOT with the TC locked up. Did a test yesterday with the TC manually locked up from 60km to 100kmh, AFR was stable around 16-17 as well, but thats not a normal driving situation. Fairly smoky and obviously very hot... All these tests have been done towing my work trailer which is fairly heavy at about 2.5tonne. Ambient temps's are around the 25deg.
Thoughts to address the top end??
Thanks
- Thread starter
- #340
@rebuilt80
Here is some good advice from Graeme.
I'll post my opinion below.
I would personally do what G mentioned about removing the aneroid and setting your max AFR under full load.
Your first tune didn't sound too bad but you said it lacked a little down low. Make a note of that.
Its going to be finicky.
So by loosing your start wheel off and reducing the spring tension by 1/4 turn your going to make the pin it more responsive to boost (travel deeper). Another shim was added to try and restrict the top end. The second tune you did sounds like (because your running a turbo that boost really good down low aka the GX) the aneroid pin is getting enough boost that its indexing where its getting too much fuel at highway cruise.
I would tighten the star wheel back up in that case.
Here is some good advice from Graeme.
I'll post my opinion below.
I would personally do what G mentioned about removing the aneroid and setting your max AFR under full load.
Your first tune didn't sound too bad but you said it lacked a little down low. Make a note of that.
Its going to be finicky.
So by loosing your start wheel off and reducing the spring tension by 1/4 turn your going to make the pin it more responsive to boost (travel deeper). Another shim was added to try and restrict the top end. The second tune you did sounds like (because your running a turbo that boost really good down low aka the GX) the aneroid pin is getting enough boost that its indexing where its getting too much fuel at highway cruise.
I would tighten the star wheel back up in that case.
