Youve got room and power for a garage band setup. Amps, guitars, bass, and a pawn shop drum kit.
Turn any ONSC event into a music festival and charge "influencers" a buttload of money, and get em lost in the woods
The Moonshine Motel (3 Viewers)
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Youve got room and power for a garage band setup. Amps, guitars, bass, and a pawn shop drum kit.
Turn any ONSC event into a music festival and charge "influencers" a buttload of money, and get em lost in the woods
- Thread starter
- #342
Yesss
- Thread starter
- #343
GSMTR!! Got there fired up the genny and she was overheating, losing oil pressure:
Changed the oil with T6 and added coolant (50/50 zxed-1 and water) and she was fixed. To clarify, oil change because I had never changed the oil, but that didn't fix the overheating issue (duh). There was no detectable coolant in the radiator cap tube somehow. This pic is after running for a few hours, it is running much cooler now somehow.
Picked up a sponsor!!! @Trollhole , thanks again Marhsal!!
Liquid N2 ice cream!!
Last note I almost forgot. As a result of the genny issues, I ordered solar panels finally. 250w residential panels from Santan solar. I'll put between 4 and 8 of the 10 panels I ordered on the motel. Should be awesome.
www.santansolar.com
Changed the oil with T6 and added coolant (50/50 zxed-1 and water) and she was fixed. To clarify, oil change because I had never changed the oil, but that didn't fix the overheating issue (duh). There was no detectable coolant in the radiator cap tube somehow. This pic is after running for a few hours, it is running much cooler now somehow.
Picked up a sponsor!!! @Trollhole , thanks again Marhsal!!
Liquid N2 ice cream!!
Last note I almost forgot. As a result of the genny issues, I ordered solar panels finally. 250w residential panels from Santan solar. I'll put between 4 and 8 of the 10 panels I ordered on the motel. Should be awesome.
Snail Trail SanTan 250W Solar Panel | SanTan Solar
This listing is for 250W solar panels. These are used panels. They have developed a cosmetic blemish known as a snail trail. This does not affect the output of the panel. Manufacturing labels have been removed. Panels have been tested and have good output. These would need to be for off-grid...
www.santansolar.com
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its amazing what a little water will do
The blender is an excellent addition *sponsored by Trollhole's Cruisers*
- Thread starter
- #346
Looking for some advice from you solar guys.
I bought 10 of these panels. At $50 each with $150 flat rate freight shipping, (min order of 10). 250w residential panels:
www.santansolar.com
I am not sure if I want to have 4 or 6 panels up top, but looking at the VOC, it looks like I'm a little over 150v with four of these panels in series, meaning i'll have to step up to a 250v MPPT controller. I need to get one with a VE.Can port on it to integrate into the rest of my Victron system.
Question is, what layout should I use? There are a few combos:
As I understand it, higher voltage is better for efficiency, but partial shade in a string impacts all panels in that string. In my mind, that is a negative of having all four or six panels in series, because if one panel is shaded, the whole string is degraded.
That being said, 2-3 panels in a string is not much voltage, so probably not super efficient.
I'm currently thinking 6 panels in series with this MPPT controller as my go-to. This would allow me to add another string if I wanted in a series-parallel system down the road, or if I wanted ground-deploy panels for some reason.
So, those in the know. Which layout should I choose?
I bought 10 of these panels. At $50 each with $150 flat rate freight shipping, (min order of 10). 250w residential panels:
Used SanTan 250W Solar Panel | SanTan Solar
These are used panels in good physical condition. Manufacturing labels have been removed. Panels have been tested and have a good output. These would need to be for off-grid applications. These panels have both Silver and Black frames. If you have a specific preference, please call our office to...
www.santansolar.com
Specifications:
- Rated Power: 250W
- Open circuit voltage (VOC): 37.6 V
- Max power voltage (VMP): 30.3 V
- Short circuit current (ISC): 8.85 A
- Max power current: 8.27 A
- Power Tolerance 0/+3%
- Maximum system voltage: 600V (UL)
- Fuse Rating: 15 A
- Weight: 41 lbs.
- Dimensions:64.95 × 39.05 × 1.37 in
I am not sure if I want to have 4 or 6 panels up top, but looking at the VOC, it looks like I'm a little over 150v with four of these panels in series, meaning i'll have to step up to a 250v MPPT controller. I need to get one with a VE.Can port on it to integrate into the rest of my Victron system.
Question is, what layout should I use? There are a few combos:
- 4 panels in series (150.4 VOC, max 8.85 ISC)
- 6 panels in series (225.6 VOC, max 8.85 ISC)
- 4 panel series/parallel setup (2 sets of 2 panels in series, paralleled together) (75.2 VOC, 17.7 ISC)
- 6 panel series/parallel setup (2 sets of 3 panels in series, paralleled together) (112.8 VOC, 17.7 ISC)
As I understand it, higher voltage is better for efficiency, but partial shade in a string impacts all panels in that string. In my mind, that is a negative of having all four or six panels in series, because if one panel is shaded, the whole string is degraded.
That being said, 2-3 panels in a string is not much voltage, so probably not super efficient.
I'm currently thinking 6 panels in series with this MPPT controller as my go-to. This would allow me to add another string if I wanted in a series-parallel system down the road, or if I wanted ground-deploy panels for some reason.
So, those in the know. Which layout should I choose?
Snuggle
- Thread starter
- #349
Yesterday was exciting for all the wrong reasons. This post will document what happened and what I did. Next post will document what I think caused it, the mistakes I made, and what needs to happen next, to prevent this from happening again.
Inverter has been off for the past few weeks, just because I haven't been using it. Didn't think a ton of it (mistake #1)
I clicked on the inverter to get things going (plugged into shore power) so that I could winterize it. Inverter said low battery, and generally it won't kick on when that happens, so I walked in the house to grab my phone. Came back out, heard a bang, thought my neighbor dropped something next door, but nope, turns out one or two of the cells in my LiFePO4 (LFP in modern speak) blew up. A fire then grew. Didn't have a fire extinguisher immediately next to the electronics (mistake #2) so I grabbed a pickaxe that was closeby and tore the batteries out. Had to pry against the *very expensive* inverter case to get it out (mistake #3).
Cell #1 blew up completely and spread it's black bull**** everywhere inside the electronics cabinet (very stinky). Cell #2 swelled up like a mfer. Cells 3 and 4 got a little scorched but didn't puke.
Since they were ****ed anyway, I took the pickaxe to them to burn off whatever is coming out. Was freaking out a little bit, and figured if I got htem to burn when I was paying attention to them, that was best. Made for a good pic, but not sure i'd make that same decision again.
Of note, the ANL fuse protecting the batteries did *not* blow, so this was not a dead short situation. Kinda hard to see, but trust me, it's not blown.
Charred remains:
Plywood battery box lid (mistake #4)
Inverter has been off for the past few weeks, just because I haven't been using it. Didn't think a ton of it (mistake #1)
I clicked on the inverter to get things going (plugged into shore power) so that I could winterize it. Inverter said low battery, and generally it won't kick on when that happens, so I walked in the house to grab my phone. Came back out, heard a bang, thought my neighbor dropped something next door, but nope, turns out one or two of the cells in my LiFePO4 (LFP in modern speak) blew up. A fire then grew. Didn't have a fire extinguisher immediately next to the electronics (mistake #2) so I grabbed a pickaxe that was closeby and tore the batteries out. Had to pry against the *very expensive* inverter case to get it out (mistake #3).
Cell #1 blew up completely and spread it's black bull**** everywhere inside the electronics cabinet (very stinky). Cell #2 swelled up like a mfer. Cells 3 and 4 got a little scorched but didn't puke.
Since they were ****ed anyway, I took the pickaxe to them to burn off whatever is coming out. Was freaking out a little bit, and figured if I got htem to burn when I was paying attention to them, that was best. Made for a good pic, but not sure i'd make that same decision again.
Of note, the ANL fuse protecting the batteries did *not* blow, so this was not a dead short situation. Kinda hard to see, but trust me, it's not blown.
Charred remains:
Plywood battery box lid (mistake #4)
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- Thread starter
- #350
Now, what the actual **** happened here.
LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries aren't as flammable as other Lithium battery chemistries, primarily because they're not self-igniting, and secondarily because they aren't self-oxygenating. These things I knew. Biggest issue you can have is that if a battery blows up, the LFP battery will vent. I also knew this. What I didn't know, is that *when* a LFP battery vents, that vented gas from the LFP battery *is itself flammable*. This is a pretty ****in important detail that I did not previously know. Reference below. Do your own research:
So, let's get into what went wrong.
Ever since I had this battery array in the trailer I had one cell that was marginal. Meaning, it didn't have the measured capacity of the others, and in general brought down the whole pack, via BMS protection, because it would get close to overvoltage, or hit undervoltage, before the rest. Not a big deal, that's why the bms is there right. Well, if a LFP battery is left in the undercharged state for too long, it can fail and offgas. Also, if it gets too cold and is attempted to be charged or discharged, it can also offgas. This is important.
Mistake #1. I left the inverter off for a few days / week, and it's been below freezing for the first time this year. Can't do that. I know the pack was in a protection state when I clicked on the inverter, because the inverter told me *low battery*. So, don't leave them to discharge all the way in the winter, that was dumb.
Mistake #2. I didn't have a fire extinguisher *immediately* next to the batteries. I didn't think that fire was a concern, but that was, in hindsight, ****in dumb. Always have a fire extinguisher right next to your electronics, one rated for electronics fires.
Mistake #3. The battery box was right next to the inverter. This was the biggest mistake I think.
Remember when I said that the LFP produces flammable gas when they fail and offgas? Right, well having the battery next to an inverter that has large contactors within it is ****in stupid. What I think happened is that at some point over the past few days/weeks, the battery failed and started to offgas. There's not a ton of ventilation in that area, so I assume this flammable gas was building up. When I clicked on the inverter, it didn't blow up immediately, but what I would bet happened is that one of the contactors switched on to try to charge the battery, and the tiny arc from that (inside the inverter case) was enough to ignite the flammable gas from the LFP. This flame front traveled up into the battery that had failed and caused it to blow up, blowing apart the plywood battery box.
Mistake #4. The flame at first was so small that it took me 10 seconds or so to realize it was on fire, but between that time and the time it took me to find a ****ing extinguisher / tool, the plywood lit on fire. The plywood fire is what caused most of the soot and scorching.
So, ****. What are we going to do about it, and what should I take away from this?
First of all, don't put your LFP batteries in wooden boxes.
Second, keep your LFP batteries away from ignition sources.
Third, keep electronics rated extinguishers next to your batteries, no matter the chemistry. Lithium rated extinguishers for lithium.
Wanted to share my experience. I'm going to have a rethink of my layout to deal with these new problems. I'm a bit rattled, but thankfully I was there when this happened, instead of my camper burning to the ground for me.
Be safe out there.
LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries aren't as flammable as other Lithium battery chemistries, primarily because they're not self-igniting, and secondarily because they aren't self-oxygenating. These things I knew. Biggest issue you can have is that if a battery blows up, the LFP battery will vent. I also knew this. What I didn't know, is that *when* a LFP battery vents, that vented gas from the LFP battery *is itself flammable*. This is a pretty ****in important detail that I did not previously know. Reference below. Do your own research:
So, let's get into what went wrong.
Ever since I had this battery array in the trailer I had one cell that was marginal. Meaning, it didn't have the measured capacity of the others, and in general brought down the whole pack, via BMS protection, because it would get close to overvoltage, or hit undervoltage, before the rest. Not a big deal, that's why the bms is there right. Well, if a LFP battery is left in the undercharged state for too long, it can fail and offgas. Also, if it gets too cold and is attempted to be charged or discharged, it can also offgas. This is important.
Mistake #1. I left the inverter off for a few days / week, and it's been below freezing for the first time this year. Can't do that. I know the pack was in a protection state when I clicked on the inverter, because the inverter told me *low battery*. So, don't leave them to discharge all the way in the winter, that was dumb.
Mistake #2. I didn't have a fire extinguisher *immediately* next to the batteries. I didn't think that fire was a concern, but that was, in hindsight, ****in dumb. Always have a fire extinguisher right next to your electronics, one rated for electronics fires.
Mistake #3. The battery box was right next to the inverter. This was the biggest mistake I think.
Remember when I said that the LFP produces flammable gas when they fail and offgas? Right, well having the battery next to an inverter that has large contactors within it is ****in stupid. What I think happened is that at some point over the past few days/weeks, the battery failed and started to offgas. There's not a ton of ventilation in that area, so I assume this flammable gas was building up. When I clicked on the inverter, it didn't blow up immediately, but what I would bet happened is that one of the contactors switched on to try to charge the battery, and the tiny arc from that (inside the inverter case) was enough to ignite the flammable gas from the LFP. This flame front traveled up into the battery that had failed and caused it to blow up, blowing apart the plywood battery box.
Mistake #4. The flame at first was so small that it took me 10 seconds or so to realize it was on fire, but between that time and the time it took me to find a ****ing extinguisher / tool, the plywood lit on fire. The plywood fire is what caused most of the soot and scorching.
So, ****. What are we going to do about it, and what should I take away from this?
First of all, don't put your LFP batteries in wooden boxes.
Second, keep your LFP batteries away from ignition sources.
Third, keep electronics rated extinguishers next to your batteries, no matter the chemistry. Lithium rated extinguishers for lithium.
Wanted to share my experience. I'm going to have a rethink of my layout to deal with these new problems. I'm a bit rattled, but thankfully I was there when this happened, instead of my camper burning to the ground for me.
Be safe out there.
Yotahead52
GOLD Star
Thank goodness the motel is in one piece. Lucky stroke. Thanks for the other info on config/ batteries. Geez.
- Thread starter
- #352
Ordered this as a replacement. Completely sealed, waterproof, integrated heater. Should solve all of the problematic parts of my last setup.
www.epochbatteries.com
12V 460Ah LiFePO4 Battery | Group 8D Size, IP67, Heated, Bluetooth & Victron Comms
Lucky you were there and caught it very quickly, It could have been extremely bad. Even though the new battery is sealed I would build a sealed metal battery box with a external vent.
- Thread starter
- #354
I am getting a little defensive here, because people don't seem to understand what happened. I'll boil it down more.
All wire protections that I had in place still work, none of them failed.
No wires were burnt. Not one, other than the bms balance leads that were on top of the batteries, because one cell was on fire (duh). The bms itself, which was outside the battery box, didn't heat up at all (no insulation melted off anywhere), and appears functional.
Inverters have things called contractors and switches in them. They're not always sealed (waterproof) like the contractors for your winch are because who would subject your $2000 inverter to water. The breakers in your house also arc when you switch them on or off, FYI, you just can't usually see it.
A tiny switching arc from an inverter in normal operation is enough to ignite a flammable gas at the right stoich ratio.
To summarize my lengthy posts:
1. When I bought the cheap grade B cells, one was way crappier than the others. It has fought me for years. I probably should have replaced that cell two years ago.
2. It must have been venting/offgassing when I switched on the inverter, meaning it finally kicked the bucket, maybe due to cold weather, maybe not. It has been cold, but I haven't been in there in a few weeks (it was warm a few weeks ago).
3. An arc from the inverter must have ignited the gas from that one cell which blew it and some other things apart.
4. The small battery fire caught my plywood battery box on fire, which is when it became much worse.
Summarizing even more:
One of my lfp battery cells failed, because it was cheap, the gas from which was ignited by an electrical arc from (I assume) inside the inverter enclosure, which then caught my plywood battery box on fire.
None of my 3.5 year old wiring failed, just a single lfp cell.
Steps to fix:
Higher quality battery from the start.
Sealed box for it to live in.
Store it away from ignition sources such as inverters.
Possibly stick it in a fireproof box.
All wire protections that I had in place still work, none of them failed.
No wires were burnt. Not one, other than the bms balance leads that were on top of the batteries, because one cell was on fire (duh). The bms itself, which was outside the battery box, didn't heat up at all (no insulation melted off anywhere), and appears functional.
Inverters have things called contractors and switches in them. They're not always sealed (waterproof) like the contractors for your winch are because who would subject your $2000 inverter to water. The breakers in your house also arc when you switch them on or off, FYI, you just can't usually see it.
A tiny switching arc from an inverter in normal operation is enough to ignite a flammable gas at the right stoich ratio.
To summarize my lengthy posts:
1. When I bought the cheap grade B cells, one was way crappier than the others. It has fought me for years. I probably should have replaced that cell two years ago.
2. It must have been venting/offgassing when I switched on the inverter, meaning it finally kicked the bucket, maybe due to cold weather, maybe not. It has been cold, but I haven't been in there in a few weeks (it was warm a few weeks ago).
3. An arc from the inverter must have ignited the gas from that one cell which blew it and some other things apart.
4. The small battery fire caught my plywood battery box on fire, which is when it became much worse.
Summarizing even more:
One of my lfp battery cells failed, because it was cheap, the gas from which was ignited by an electrical arc from (I assume) inside the inverter enclosure, which then caught my plywood battery box on fire.
None of my 3.5 year old wiring failed, just a single lfp cell.
Steps to fix:
Higher quality battery from the start.
Sealed box for it to live in.
Store it away from ignition sources such as inverters.
Possibly stick it in a fireproof box.
Wow Johnny, glad it wasn’t worse. Is there any way to mount the batteries externally? I imagine since the new battery is sealed, breathability should not be an issue. I appreciate your forensic breakdown and remedies that help any of us designing a solar powered system. See you soon brother.
Johnny, Like Shaun, I want you to know how much I appreciate the information you shared on this thread, and on the forum as a whole. I learn something new from practically all of your posts. I think many of us (myself included) are not on your level of understanding the intricacies of off-grid power systems. We see the pics of the burned battery box and attach that image to our own trailers, campers, etc. Perhaps suggestions have been made in good faith, just not in good understanding, because we fear an event like this happening with our own stuff, but don't know enough about how to prevent it. Anybody who would go so far as to criticize your setup or your handiwork would have to be expert-level badass. I know I'm not that guy. Most of us aren't. Don't put your guard up. Please keep the information flowing so that we can all learn from this.
Glad you caught that before stuff went really bad. I bring my lion technologies batt and noco charger in from my camper for the winter. Mine doesn't have an integrated heater, and they don't like to be charged below 34 degrees. I charge mine in the house, and have it at the ready in the event of a power outage. We can charge phones, and run a 12v electric blanket.
When its in the camper, it's in a plastic battery box, inside an aluminum tongue box. 200 amp breaker, then a 200 or 300 amp blue sea switch. 1 or 2 gauge wire into the cabinets in the camper, with a pair of bussman breakers. One large one feeds the inverter via 2 gauge, and one sub 100 amp size feeds a 12 port blue sea fuse panel via 4 gauge for the 12 volt stuff. I size my power and ground to match.
When its in the camper, it's in a plastic battery box, inside an aluminum tongue box. 200 amp breaker, then a 200 or 300 amp blue sea switch. 1 or 2 gauge wire into the cabinets in the camper, with a pair of bussman breakers. One large one feeds the inverter via 2 gauge, and one sub 100 amp size feeds a 12 port blue sea fuse panel via 4 gauge for the 12 volt stuff. I size my power and ground to match.
I know nothing about battery setups, but have experienced failures in other areas before first hand. Your debrief and unpacking of this is a solid learning experience. Unfortunately it was an eventful one. Thanks for posting what happened, what you did both before and after, and what's next. It will help me and others see what's what and a better way of doing this setup in the future. Hat's off to you for your honesty and posting this. Thank you.
Experience is the mother of all teachers - she's not always kind, but she never lies.
Experience is the mother of all teachers - she's not always kind, but she never lies.
- Thread starter
- #359
New battery arrived today! Will get to play with it soon.
- Thread starter
- #360
97lbs and 460ah of capacity, which equals almost 6kwh of storage at nominal voltage. Hell yeah.
Came with remote power button and SOC meter as well. SOC meter enables bluetooth directly to the battery, which is super duper neat. It will integrate with the rest of my victron system as well.
Now to figure out where to mount it...
Came with remote power button and SOC meter as well. SOC meter enables bluetooth directly to the battery, which is super duper neat. It will integrate with the rest of my victron system as well.
Now to figure out where to mount it...
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