Suspension Woes. Thoughts on these Spring Perches (1 Viewer)

[BJSnooper]

Hey,

I'm not sure what to think of these blocks welded onto my frame, which have the spring perches welded onto them. The PO then put a sweet OME 3" lift on, but is has really thrown my angles off. I have a couple questions:

-Will a caster shim fix the pinion angle?
-Thoughts on frame stability with these welded blocks?
-Should I cut them out and return to stock? -->how stable is this now?
-Should I be looking at a frame swap? Is this a unstable mod?

I realize if I cut out the block and manage to re-weld the perches back onto the frame, I'll need to move the slider. I will also not be using the large rivets (are there serious issues with doing this?)

Pictures below show the welded in "lift" blocks. First one is the front, second picture is the rear.

(new body bushings are on the way)

Thanks

 

[pbgbottle]

need to see pics of the other end also (shackle end)
.maybe even a pic of the whole truck would be nice .

 

[camcruiser13]

Junk


Cut them off. Start from stock.

 

[DSRTRDR]

I wouldn't use those kinds of spring pins again, either

go with Kurt's - much beefier

 

[BJSnooper]

need to see pics of the other end also (shackle end)
.maybe even a pic of the whole truck would be nice .

Ah man, I'm going to be brutal at this multi-quote issue! Thanks for the responses. The 4 people that responded had a total of 14000 messages to their names.

Anyways, here are the pictures of the shackle end and of the rig of conversation

first picture is the rig of question. Second is the front, 3rd is the rear.

Upon looking at my, the front's seem wrong. I'm not super familiar with how the fronts are supposed to look, I will search the forum later but just how they sit now seems odd to me...

 

[BJSnooper]

Junk


Cut them off. Start from stock.

Camcruiser - what do you suggest I do then? Can I weld them back into place, even though they were originally riveted? Can I get new perches, or can I reuse the current ones? I'm not sure "how to return to stock" Should I be looking for a new frame? You'll have to help me with that, sorry for the inexperience.

I wouldn't use those kinds of spring pins again, either

go with Kurt's - much beefier

Again, I have to pull the new-guy card, what/where are the spring pins? What is wrong with the current ones? Kurt is?? My mind is a sponge, I just want to absorb all I can right now!!

Thanks again for both replies!

 

[Cruiserdrew]

The mount extensions appear a bit dodgy but if it works and the welding looks safe, run it until there is a problem.

The front extensions looks bad to me and I would have a plan to return to a more standard set-up.


In an ideal world, you would cut out the new and return to stock, but this may be a golden opportunity to do a spring over or something great, even though you are starting with junk.

Funny, there was a guy I met at Rubithon years ago, who was set up just like this and his girlfriend drank hard lemonade from dawn to late night every day. You didn't buy this in SoCal did you?

 

[BJSnooper]

The mount extensions appear a bit dodgy but if it works and the welding looks safe, run it until there is a problem.

The front extensions looks bad to me and I would have a plan to return to a more standard set-up.


In an ideal world, you would cut out the new and return to stock, but this may be a golden opportunity to do a spring over or something great, even though you are starting with junk.

Funny, there was a guy I met at Rubithon years ago, who was set up just like this and his girlfriend drank hard lemonade from dawn to late night every day. You didn't buy this in SoCal did you?

I'll have to get down with the magnifying glass to really inspect the welds. They honestly don't look that bad but I'll have a good hard look tomorrow.

I've thought of SOA but I don't think its in my future, I want a fairly streetable, DD, and a good trail rig. I think SOA could be in my future, one day, just not yet.

So, I hate to keep belabouring this point, but how to I return to stock? Take the lift "block" out and reweld onto my frame? re-rivet? This is the major part I am concerned about. I really don't mind removing this block, but I am unsure about how to reattach this perch (if that's what its called... I've just been calling it that) I honestly want to do it right, I just haven't been guided in that direction, whether it a new frame or good re-weld.

Sorry, I personally haven't been to Rubithon. That's not to say the truck hasn't (I don't believe it has, but I'd love to be re-informed) I bought it up here, and I think it has been up in Canuckistan for the last 10 years or so. Previous that - Your guess is as good as mine!!

 

[pbgbottle]

the shackle ends looks fine. i wouldn't worry about the spacers as long as they are welded on there solid and there are no cracks in the frame.
the spacers could flex and may crack the frame when you are wheeling the rig.






it's not still snowing in calgary is it??

 

[BC40]

Seen a few out of Alberta with those lift blocks.

This thread might give you some ideas for removing them:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/245813-1hz-install-into-1978-fj40-3.html

 

[Mark W]

Yes caster shims can correct the pinon and caster problems that this approach has created. As will appropriate length shackles

If the welding was done right there is little concern about strength or "stability". Some gussets would be a good addition if you leave the blocks there.

No need for a frame swap if you want these gone. Just cut them off and weld the original spring hangers back where they started.

This approach is not one I would take, and it is not not seen often, but it is not something that is horrifying.


Not sure what you mean when you say that the "fronts" do not look right to you. If you mean the attachment of the front of the friont srpingd. That is OEM (with OME anti-inversion shackles).


Mark...

 

[John Smith]

What is your current caster reading? I think that drop would help out the caster angle, not hurt it. Get the caster correct with a shim and enjoy driving truck. If the drop brackets bother you, cut them off and weld on new hangers.

Kurt is "Cruiser Outfitters", a Land Cruiser parts seller, and Claudia is referring to your drilled spring pins with the grease fittings. They tend to break, unlike the solid stock ones.

 

[El Bender]

Go into your yellow pages and look for a welding shop that does " structural steel". These are where you find crafts people that understand stress, angles etc.
What becomes a nightmare with a parts changing "mechanic", who just happens to own a welder, is childs play to the structural guys..... or even an ornamental iron guy that builds spiral stairs and handrails for hospitals etc etc.
Most of those guys are into air boats, swamp buggies, race cars, motorcycles, go karts and many other things as a side hobby. They're the best of the best..
Those are also the guys you want building roof racks,brush guards, bumpers, trailers, engine stands, rock sliders, fenders and ....it goes on and on.

 

[Plowboy]

I've had 2 inch blocks between the solid hanger and frame since 1978. I also added 2 inch longer shackles.
With everything moved down 2 inches there is no change in steering geometry. I know not a common change, but in 78 not a lot of options, and this is how the Japanese military (or should I say defense force) gained ground clearance for large military style tires.

 

[lcwizard]

I've had 2 inch blocks between the solid hanger and frame since 1978. I also added 2 inch longer shackles.
With everything moved down 2 inches there is no change in steering geometry. I know not a common change, but in 78 not a lot of options, and this is how the Japanese military (or should I say defense force) gained ground clearance for large military style tires.

Agreed. Before any worthwhile loft springs were available this was a very common solution to a lift. Most of the independent suspension lift kits use this
principal. I ran a perch lift with stock springs for over 15 years and quite frankly
it road better and was more stable than the equivalent spring lifts of today.

 

[DSRTRDR]

Again, I have to pull the new-guy card, what/where are the spring pins? What is wrong with the current ones? Kurt is?? My mind is a sponge, I just want to absorb all I can right now!!

Kurt = cruiseroutfitters.com Cruiser Outfitters

the spring pins are the bolts that hold the springs in their hangers at the frame - the type you show in your pics have broken on two different occasions in my truck - greasable spring pins have a hole that is a weak point in their design https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/382945-i-am-so-done-greasable-spring-pins.html

 

[Plowboy]

the spring pins are the bolts that hold the springs in their hangers at the frame - the type you show in your pics have broken on two different occasions in my truck - greasable spring pins have a hole that is a weak point in their design I am so done with greasable spring pins

I had a 1950's Crosley stationwagon that had zerks in the spring-ends. Only car I have ever seen that you could lube the pins through the springs.

 

[mikeymouse]

I agree with Camcruiser13...

If it's hollow box tubing I would be really concerned about side loading and it collapsing. Structurally it might be ok... "Might" isn't good enough for me. I definitely wouldn't wait until there's a problem. It might be suddenly too late. I have an Advance Handling shackle reversal kit on mine, and the extended spring perches up front are strong enough for a front end loader. Anything less, I would be concerned. I wouldn't want just hollow, un-gusseted, box tubing to be a perch 'extender'. The rears have at least the tubing end plates welded to them, but it still looks wonky.

As far as the Caster angle the spec. should be +1 to +3 degrees which means the top pivot is more rearward than the bottom pivot. The block under the rear perch increases your Caster angle. The more caster, the better the steering wheel will self center. That's good IMHO. I wouldn't worry about the pinion angle that much unless you had a SOA or were in 4wd 90% of the time. The Caster angle is going to be more applicable more often than the pinion angle. If you start grenading U-joints then I would consider shims. Even shims are wonky! Aluminum shims don't like steel perches. They corrode and the u-bolts get loose... not cool. Copper/Brass shims are softer than steel... not cool. Steel shims are better, but can still be an issue. Cut & turn the tubes is the real solution for both Caster angle and pinion angle.

I had a 1980 FJ40 and I put long front shackles on it and it was down right scary to drive in traffic. It had a mind of its own and would follow slight tire dips in the pavement. It doesn't take a whole lot of "out of whack" to make it not fun to drive.... and just a little more to be dangerous.

 

[BJSnooper]

Thanks for all the responses. I went out last night and checked the welds, they look pretty stout. There is a plate welded to the backside as well. I think I am going to run with them for the summer and then take a good look at them and decide what to do with them over the winter while its tucked away in my garage.

I'm going to look into replacing the greaseable shackles. I noticed last night (also, see the first picture in my original post) there is a loose bolt, the rustier one in the picture. I went to tighten it and it just spun. I can tap it for a bigger one but I'll investigate other avenues for replacement.

 

[ridgerunner]

IIRC, a Canadian Cruiser shop was doing this kind of work to lower the spring to give it some lift, which usually included a longer shackle.

(Not to say that the shop did the work, but that it has been done in the past.)