Seeking suspension advice -- unique case

[NY2LA]

@bloc That's a solid argument. I'm too new at this to balance the equation, but to play devil's advocate, one could also make an argument in favor of the Australian options. For the same money as just the King's suspension, you get a number of other drivetrain parts that have been engineered to work together to correct the geometry after lift. That would presumably create less wear on a number of other components, help prevent a wider range of maintenance issues and trail failures, and also save one from the hassle of trying to put together one's own kit with the hope that everything plays well together.

Again, not sure the best path. Just looking at the different sides and thinking things through as best I can.

 

[CharlieS]

FWIW, I agree with @bloc 's reasoning. I went in the same direction for largely the same reasons. It'd be super if you tried something new though, and gave the community additional options. For me, the cost is significant enough that I wanted to go with a known quantity.

 

[bloc]

@bloc That's a solid argument. I'm too new at this to balance the equation, but to play devil's advocate, one could also make an argument in favor of the Australian options. For the same money as just the King's suspension, you get a number of other drivetrain parts that have been engineered to work together to correct the geometry after lift. That would presumably create less wear on a number of other components, help prevent a wider range of maintenance issues and trail failures, and also save one from the hassle of trying to put together one's own kit with the hope that everything plays well together.

Again, not sure the best path. Just looking at the different sides and thinking things through as best I can.

Personally I’m of the mindset to reduce lift so that other bandaids don’t need to be applied in the first place. I begrudgingly went with UCAs for my ~2.5” lift, but only did because ARB/OME seems to have come out with a maintainable design that actually eliminates squeaks. This will put my alignment adjusters back near the center of their range, and fix the slightly less than 1 degree of positive camber the shop couldn’t dial out (though they said they did). If the lift had stayed under 2” I don’t think UCAs would be necessary, but I can’t get it any further down without softer front springs and the shocks/springs work so well I don’t want to go messing with them.
I’ve come to appreciate a lower truck over the years. These things are very capable stock, and as reliable and well thought out as you can get. I don’t want to go too far into upsetting that balance. My primary motivator for kings was increased damping capacity at speed on gravel, not the lift. I did notice you’ve mentioned 35s a few times.. if you do some digging here you’ll find posts by well respected members that got them to work moving back down to smaller tires, specifically because of the compromises required. @Markuson is the primary one I can think of.
I am aware you are looking for a suspension system with unique characteristics, and other people’s experience may not carry over as directly. But there is still a lot to learn from them.. and I know you are. Given your desires, I’d have to ask if that superior system will be as tunable in the ways you need? Simply having compression adjusters won’t go as far as Ben being able to set the range of what those adjusters will do for your unique use case. Can you get different rate springs if they are called for? Will there be any viable support if they don’t work like you need? King’s cost what they do for a reason, and when I saw them in person frankly I thought they should cost more. The quality is impressive. If you have to put other high quality parts on, as I ended up doing, so be it. You can make decisions about which parts on the market best fit your needs, and likely end up with a system that works better overall, even if it takes longer to end up on your doorstep and costs more.

 

[NY2LA]

More great points, @bloc. This stuff is maddening, so I appreciate everyone's advice and experience.

One thing I'll add is this page from Superior Engineering: Superior Outback Adventurer Australia Wide Legal 3" or 4" Lift, 33"-35" Tyres, 3.9T GVM Upgrade Kit for the Toyota 200 Series Landcruiser

I do like how they've thought everything out. Their kits are federally approved in Australia, where the rules sound pretty strict (though I could be naive in this regard). They also show all the tire sizes that fit and the impact of their kits on GVM and towing capacity. I've been corresponding with them too, and they've been answering my questions. They seem to be honest about a couple of bits that are most likely to be subject to wear and need for replacement.

One thing that seems a bit different from common setups here is that they install their kits with zero offset wheels. They were not able to advise me on how my 60 mm offset Heritage wheels would perform, either alone or with a 1.25" spacer. I don't want to turn my truck into a rolling slingshot, so I might need their fenders too if I go this route. Not clear though.

 

[rlynch356]

Never heard of superior.. I imagine they are. budget brand in AUS.. may be good but who knows.. the big brands are big for a reason. the product is quality and lasts, you have a warranty that is honored in the states, etc. Its kinda like buying Rancho shocks in the US Vs. say ARB.

The GVM upgrade is a huge thing in AUS, they are very strict on that since off roading is a lifestyle there. AUS inspection is not like the TUV in Germany, but it stricter than the US. You need to re-certify the truck with each major component change.

But all the manufactures offer that, they have to.

so could it it great stuff? Sure.. I'm sure its not bad since most holidays camping and off-roading in Australia are multiple weeks long. they would not last if it was total crap, good enough for once a year 3-4 week trip, I'm sure it is. But have no idea.

Terrain tamer is another company like ARB that serves the mining industry in AUS and ZA, they make great stuff, and are usually cheaper than stock or ARB. I know they make remote res shocks for the land cruiser. maybe give them a look.

 

[linuxgod]

Interesting. The kit comes with this. I wonder if you can get it separately...

• 1 x CAN Bus Speedo Corrector

@BloggerL You'd need a ~2" spacer to get close to zero offset. On stock, or near stock, wheels you'll most certainly rub all over the place.

If you don't want fender flares but need to fit wide tires or low offset wheels, look at having someone roll your fenders. That said unless the superior kit involves cutting sheet metal the flares are probably more for Australian DOT rules which likely disallow tires that jut outside the wheel well, rather than for actual suspension fitment.

Honestly if they are spec'ing 0 offset wheels I'm suspect on their "superior engineering". With factory suspension, +60 offset is optimal on factory (31") tires. If you step up to 33s then the +50 offset RWs get you closest to factory geometry. On 35s you should be around +37 offset. Unless their UCAs and LCAs are actually changing the kingpin inclination angle/scrub radius I would expect torque steer under heavy throttle and some squirreliness under extreme braking.

 

[NY2LA]

Interesting. The kit comes with this. I wonder if you can get it separately...

• 1 x CAN Bus Speedo Corrector

@BloggerL You'd need a ~2" spacer to get close to zero offset. On stock, or near stock, wheels you'll most certainly rub all over the place.

If you don't want fender flares but need to fit wide tires or low offset wheels, look at having someone roll your fenders. That said unless the superior kit involves cutting sheet metal the flares are probably more for Australian DOT rules which likely disallow tires that jut outside the wheel well, rather than for actual suspension fitment.

Honestly if they are spec'ing 0 offset wheels I'm suspect on their "superior engineering". With factory suspension, +60 offset is optimal on factory (31") tires. If you step up to 33s then the +50 offset RWs get you closest to factory geometry. On 35s you should be around +37 offset. Unless their UCAs and LCAs are actually changing the kingpin inclination angle/scrub radius I would expect torque steer under heavy throttle and some squirreliness under extreme braking.

MIght be worth contacting them about the speedo corrector. They are pretty responsive.

I'm a bit confused about scrub radius, to be honest. I asked Ben at Filthy Motorsports about this issue, and he rather passionately dismissed the notion that there should be any concern over scrub radius for the kinds of changes most of are talking about on this forum. He said this was splitting hairs, and it would take a large change in wheel spacing for scrub radius to matter. I forget the actual measure he used when talking about this large change. I think he said several inches, but don't quote me on that.

At the same time, I myself am concerned about raised COG and loss of lateral stability, as that seems like a real safety issue. So maybe 2 inch spacers on a 3" lifted truck would actually be a good thing?

Maybe someone with more expertise than me will talk to Superior about their kits. There are all kinds of components in some of them that go well beyond UCAs and LCAs, so they seem to be correcting for a number of things. But I just don't have the automotive background necessary to analyze that intelligently. I can talk cameras all day, but my IQ drops 100 points when the conversation shifts to vehicle components.

At this point, I may wait and get some more experience in the truck before modifying the suspension. I'm just too confused about everything right now, and I can plan my trips to avoid any major rock climbing. I can also air down my tires just a little for short periods to help with smooth filming on roads--perhaps replacing my tires every 10K for extra safety.

 

[nwfl4runner]

Interesting thread. Am I right that your goal is a smoother more consistent ride with your added weight and electronics? Nothing more fancy than that?

 

[NY2LA]

Interesting thread. Am I right that your goal is a smoother more consistent ride with your added weight and electronics? Nothing more fancy than that?

I'd summarize it as the ability to reliably reach places deep off road, to drive thousands of miles comfortably across the highway to get to those places, and to minimize the jolts from bad/broken pavement along the way--especially the vibrations/jerky stuttering that occur when a rapid series of road bumps "overwhelm" the stock suspension.

 

[nwfl4runner]

I'd summarize it as the ability to reliably reach places deep off road, to drive thousands of miles comfortably across the highway to get to those places, and to minimize the jolts from bad/broken pavement along the way--especially the vibrations/jerky stuttering that occur when a rapid series of road bumps "overwhelm" the stock suspension.

gotcha. The best thing to do is to get loaded up and 4 corner weighed. Take that and get Kings. Ben @ Filthy or Accutune will be able to sort out the fronts and tune them to your liking. As for the rears, you should consider new coils depending on how much weight you have. Another option if you are truly looking to control the ride is going to bypass shocks in the rear instead. It’s probably overkill for your driving style, but an option that allows for maximum tuning.

stay away from non oem bushings as they are honestly slightly harsher on the ride (although most will be hard pressed to notice). No need for UCA if you keep your lift below 2”. For your use, I wouldn’t bother with a lift. All it does is eliminate droop and you don’t seem to need it.

lastly - good tires and I’m absolutely worthless in that regard. I run muddies on mine, so they ride like bricks with rocks inside. But, folks on here will have good suggestions.

The King wait is as long as they say but worth it. Buy once cry once. Also, by the time you’ve covered 30-50k in miles, you won’t be upset for a week downtime while they’re being rebuilt. Heck, keep your OEM and just swap them in.

 

[bloc]

For your use, I wouldn’t bother with a lift. All it does is eliminate droop and you don’t seem to need it.

Kings add ~2” of down travel in front and 3/4” in rear, so the part about eliminating droop isn’t entirely true.

 

[nwfl4runner]

Kings add ~2” of down travel in front and 3/4” in rear, so the part about eliminating droop isn’t entirely true.

didn’t realize they were extended length coilovers - then if you’re gaining travel no worries.

edit - I see the claim of 1” with UCA?

https://www.chaosfab.com/salespecs/2020/2008+Land-Cruiser-200-Series-Sales-Guide.pdf

 

[TeCKis300]

Hey @KLF , @bloc ,@TeCKis300 et al, have you guys seen this kit from Superior Engineering in Australia: Superior Remote Reservoir 2.5 3 Inch Lift Kit Suitable For Toyota Landcruiser 200 Series | Superior Engineering

This one is 3 to 4 inches and can do a 35" tire. They also have 0 to 2 inch kits. This one comes with a bunch of drivetrain goodies to correct for various geometry issues, including CV angles.

I'm almost wondering if it's good to just go 3" and have flexibility in place for whatever I find works best down the road -- no pun intended.

Anyone have thoughts on these kits?

Been away overlanding in Death Valley with no connection, but I'm back. Happy Thanksgiving all.

I'm with others and not particularly excited about this kit, which throws the kitchen sink at the vehicle. It may be an easy button, but there's some fundamental things I stick to when I build. Less is more and keeping as many OEM parts as possible is my preference. When things fail off-road in remote places, and they will, they almost always tend to be aftermarket stuff. OEM parts are the only ones that go through true long term validation tests, quality manufacturing processes, and are easier to source in a pinch.

3" lift is huge and puts the suspension at angles which no matter what adjustment is provided here, does not address the LCA at steep angles, rear panhard at steep angles, which ultimately result in sloppy handling with toe steer, side to side wandering, and weird jacking forces as the suspension cycles. 2" or less is where one wants to be if handling is a priority IMO. On and high speed off-road.

I stand by my recommendations in an earlier post. Your desires for suspension aren't much different to what most people want. Yet it's tough as there's a certain want to throw many things, shiny things, at it in trying to make things better. Adjustability is a double edged sword and I'd be careful going down the slippery slope for more, rather than designed and tuned right from the get go. My personal and professional approach in building complex platforms is that it should be addressed as an overall system, understanding use case, and not forgetting about less sexy aspects that are important to the overall setup. Things like highway use, NVH, durability, service intervals, replacement parts, etc.

More thoughts
- GVM/payload upgrades may be counterproductive to good off-road compliance and articulation. Watch the spring rates
- Lift does not in itself mean better ride or handling. Obstacle clearance and suspension performance may be different things.
- Lift with a combination of tire and suspension. More tire IMO, less suspension. To get both clearance and handling. High speed washboard and gravel tracks can be better tamed with low pressure in large diameter tires.
- Offset and scrub radius are critical dimensions to good handling and performance. I'm disappointed to hear Ben's comments as this is some of the more important things that seasoned and successful racers pay attention to. You'll know it's wrong when putting down the power and there's torque steer, the steering constantly tugs, on pavement and the tires are squealing and breaking traction, or going down a rock garden and your steering is trying to rip itself out of your hands. It's also unnecessary wear/tear on the steering rack.

I may have mentioned earlier but this is the build I would recommend as a template

Builds - mcgaskins' 2013 build thread - Palladium

SLIDERS AND SUSPENSION The next two items were big ones - sliders and suspension. I've had nothing but excellent experiences with the @sleeoffroad standard slider, so that was an easy choice. I prefer the slimmer design compared with the LX version, but I've seen those up close and they are a...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[marketShark]

This is the first thing I imagined of when I read the post. Unfortunately, company doesn't offer LC variants of camera vehicles

Porsche Cayenne Turbo – Pursuit Systems

www.pursuitsystems.com

Mercedes ML63 AMG – Pursuit Systems

www.pursuitsystems.com

Maybe a Top Gear film crew setup would be more like it!

 

[NY2LA]

Okay, guys. After more research and reflection on folks' advice here and elsewhere, here's my current plan. Still honing in on a couple things, but I've got it narrowed down.

SUSPENSION
I'm going to go with the new Dobinson MRA's and aim for about a 1.5" lift. I like the Dobinsons because they offer low-speed compression adjustment, high-speed compression adjustment, and rebound adjustment: Monotube Remote reservoir Adjustable(MRA) - https://www.dobinsonsdirect.com/pages/monotube-remote-reservoir-adjustablemra. My thinking is that I can dial in these shocks for plushness over highway bumps while also getting good offroad articulation and good pitch and roll control.

TIRES
I'm leaning toward Ridge Grappler 285/70/R18 load Es to maximize diameter for rolling over bumps, clearing offroad obstacles, and minimizing pavement PSI. My hope is that they'll be plusher over small bumps than my 285/60 load D KO2s, though all the variables make that impossible to specify in advance, it seems. (These won't go on until the spring, when my Blizzaks come off.)

SPACERS/TRIMMING/MUDFLAPS
Based on readings here, I'm leaning toward .75" or 1" spacers. I'm having trouble figuring out the best size to avoid rubbing from my readings here; I'm seeing different things.

I'm hoping to keep my front mudflap functionality--maybe by removing it as needed to clear the tire but then installing part of it or an alternative flap of some kind a little further back that provides some protection.

OTHER PARTS
I'm not sure yet about the UCAs or panhard bar that Dobinsons offers. I'm thinking with 1.5" lift I don't need those.

I'm taking my time here with all this, because of the way the pandemic keeps dragging on. Looks like I'm going to have a total of 11 months before I do much of anything serious with this vehicle.

 

[KLF]

I'm curious how you will fit up .75" or 1" spacers. AFAIK 1.25" is as short as you can go, so they just clear the stock studs. The studs aren't long enough so you can just slide even a 3/4" spacer on then put the wheel back on, there won't be enough threads engaged in the lug nuts. I suppose you could have longer studs installed, but I would worry about the torque on them that long, seems like they would bend, or stretch enough to allow the lug nuts to come loose.

 

[CharlieS]

I have had many adjustable suspensions, and once I had them dialed in, I never touched the adjusters again. Now I don't buy those types of suspensions. I'll be interested to hear your long term report on whether you adjust them regularly, or just set and forget them.

 

[MTKID]

I'm curious how you will fit up .75" or 1" spacers. AFAIK 1.25" is as short as you can go, so they just clear the stock studs. The studs aren't long enough so you can just slide even a 3/4" spacer on then put the wheel back on, there won't be enough threads engaged in the lug nuts. I suppose you could have longer studs installed, but I would worry about the torque on them that long, seems like they would bend, or stretch enough to allow the lug nuts to come loose.

I know he used the phrase "spacers" but I'm pretty sure he meant adapter. Most people use those terms back and forth. There are quite a few on here that are using a 3/4" or 1" adapter successfully with RW wheels although the 1.25" is the most common. I am running 3/4" currently on both RW wheels and factory LX wheels. I know there was a wheel that had some fitment issue due to not having deep enough recess behind the wheel for the factory stud & adapter lug nut. Maybe this is the fitment issue you are referring to and you know this by his specific wheel.

3/8" was the narrowest slip on spacer that I ran successfully, but there is concern about leaving enough threads for engagement.

 

[jefo13]

Late to this thread here but definitely a great read. I’m going to attempt to dial the OP back a bit from the abyss of overbuilding as it is addicting and actually worth it for other purposes other than the originally stated which if I remember correctly were improved on-road ride and ocasional off-road capability improvement; which we all know stock 200s are good enough on ocasional off-road... plenty of YouTube material there to support this.
So before shelling out all this $$ which is fine if this is a work expense and not coming out of your pocket, you may want to check out how some member-rigs ride yourself. I’m not sure where you are located but you are welcome to take mine for a spin, and doubt many around here would oppose to let you feel our setups... (COVID safe of course) you may bring a camera that could best replicate your robot and go from there... you may just end up with something simple but effective and save your money for something else... just a thought.

 

[NY2LA]

I'm leaning toward Ridge Grappler 285/70/R18 load Es to maximize diameter for rolling over bumps, clearing offroad obstacles, and minimizing pavement PSI. My hope is that they'll be plusher over small bumps than my current 285/60 load D KO2s, th

Late to this thread here but definitely a great read. I’m going to attempt to dial the OP back a bit from the abyss of overbuilding as it is addicting and actually worth it for other purposes other than the originally stated which if I remember correctly were improved on-road ride and ocasional off-road capability improvement; which we all know stock 200s are good enough on ocasional off-road... plenty of YouTube material there to support this.
So before shelling out all this $$ which is fine if this is a work expense and not coming out of your pocket, you may want to check out how some member-rigs ride yourself. I’m not sure where you are located but you are welcome to take mine for a spin, and doubt many around here would oppose to let you feel our setups... (COVID safe of course) you may bring a camera that could best replicate your robot and go from there... you may just end up with something simple but effective and save your money for something else... just a thought.

I appreciate the caution here. It's something that I've thought a bit about. The truth is I'll be putting on mostly highway miles. But the another truth is I'll be putting on those miles to get to places where, historically, all-season tires have not been adequate. And I'll be doing that for work, not as a recreational choice that could be swapped out for a different choice if my vehicle was not prepared.

Prior to the pandemic, I got stuck in desert sand in a rented SUV, which required search and rescue to come out to the desert at night, and I've have had to navigate an hour over rocks while driving a Wrangler behind a guide. That wasn't Moab proper, but same terrain on a private property nearby. Dancing on the edges of cliffs, heart beating hard in a few places as I looked at death just 6 inches to my right. I also did several easy peasy trail rides on farms and ranches that could have been done in a Subaru or maybe even a Corolla with some patience, but I will navigating literally every type of terrain we have in this country and need to equipped for the most challenging scenarios, however infrequently they present themselves. I also can't really afford to get stuck or blow out a tire while working if I can avoid that with a more rugged off road tire. So I'm juggling a difficult puzzle, but I feel the above solution will let me do everything I need, with hopefully the only costs being MPG and minor losses in acceleration, braking, and how hard I can safely push corners at high speed.

I've already got most of my other mods done. I've made a definitive decision to avoid a few heavy things that folks doing more extended offroading or camping tend to get but that would be overkill for me. No heavy bumpers, no large and heavy fridge, no heavy skid plates (though I might consider lightweight aluminum ones).

I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it when I'm in Cali. For the next several months, I'll be in NJ though.