Rice's 1FZ-FE rebuild Thread (1 Viewer)

[Rice]

I realize that since I'm usually the one spending other people's money I deserve this, but dayum ya'll. Twin's would seriously put me in Dutch with the wife.

I hesitated on the red just because almost every rebuild I see is doing it now, to the point it has almost become cliché. We'll see what other matching goodies can nestle in there with the valve cover.



Next few days are sort of booked with either school or holiday items so progress will be slow.

Still on the list:

Upper pan (bare aluminum or paint?)
Lower pan
Rear main seal
exhaust manifolds (will run the engine NA for a while before any turbo stuff happens)
lower and upper Intake manifolds (Do not plan to do EGR delete until turbo)
Power steering pump
alternator brackets and alternator
pulleys and belts
AC brackets
Distributor/plugs/wires, etc. Set static timing.
PHH and other hoses
PAIR valve
T-stat and water neck.
Oil filter
Prime oiling system

Some items will be swapped off the old motor when it comes out:
flex plate
starter
throttle body along with TPS and IAC (I believe, maybe, not sure yet)

 

[elkaholic]

I didn't see an 1894 to protect all those horses from vandals on your list

 

[fj40z]

Myself being a ravenous 1FZ fan I am absolutely loving this thread

 

[scottryana]

This looks really great! Very nice work!

As for the twins mentioned below, with today's new turbos and it being an inline 6 there really are no reasons to go twin, unless you have two little turbos laying around

Not much wrench time tonight. Some parts cleaning, new plug tube seals, and valve cover install.

View attachment 1363180

 

[Rice]

This looks really great! Very nice work!

As for the twins mentioned below, with today's new turbos and it being an inline 6 there really are no reasons to go twin, unless you have two little turbos laying around

Thanks Ryan.

Agree. I would consider it if all the boys in here wanting it to happen coughed up the dough but even then it would just be for show.

them: "Whoa, twin turbos"
me: "yep"
them: "That must have cost a penny or two"
me: "yep"
them: "how much boost are you running"
me: "10 pounds"
them: <pause>

 

[elkaholic]

But @Rice , you spend the s--t out of our money, it is our turn to spend yours!

 

[jfz80]

Ive had enough fun playing devils advocate between LS and FZ-T and am surprised and excited for your choice. Im all for the single here but had to ad those for the peanut gallery and to further muddle all this tech lol

But we got to work on this 10lb thing

 

[Rice]

I'll make a deal here .... If a former student pops out the woodwork and says "Mr. Strange, you changed my life, here's $50k to say thanks." then I'll bolt on the twins (And Sam I'd be right down to pick up all your lever buns).

We're still not lacking for challenge to get 10 pounds of well managed boost.

 

[scottryana]

I think once you crack the challenge it won't matter if it is 5, 10 or 30psi. But I am not sure MAPEcu is going to be the way to go. I know they seem to be stepping up to the plate and offering you guys some great support and I also know the Pre '95's are a little easer on the electronics side so I guess we will just have to wait and see! But I wouldn't hesitate throwing 20psi at the 1FZ with a good rebuilt bottom end, I would just be worried about the transmission. lol

I'll make a deal here .... If a former student pops out the woodwork and says "Mr. Strange, you changed my life, here's $50k to say thanks." then I'll bolt on the twins (And Sam I'd be right down to pick up all your lever buns).

We're still not lacking for challenge to get 10 pounds of well managed boost.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

This looks really great! Very nice work!

As for the twins mentioned below, with today's new turbos and it being an inline 6 there really are no reasons to go twin, unless you have two little turbos laying around

EDIT: I prepared a long diatribe about how compound turbos are always better than a single, regardless of the single turbo, then the I remembered that "twins" refers to two small turbos working independently.

Agreed, twin turbos are a thing of the past. @Rice should install a set of compound turbos

 

[elkaholic]

@GLTHFJ60 this is exactly why I said "both" rather than twin initially ...

 

[scottryana]

Compounds are nice but many never get them tuned right. So unless you are a diesel looking for 80+psi of boost I think compounds would be way overkill. Seriously getting a single that can hold boost to redline is already going to be a decently sized turbo like 59+mm so if he wants to step it up later he could.

For example:
Garrett new gen II GTX3576 is 58mm and tops out at 750hp
Precision has a 6062 that is 60mm and tops out at 750hp
BW 7670 is a 57mm and tops out at 600hp.

You really can't go any smaller simply because of the volume of air needed.

But any time you have 2 turbos, you have twice the inefficiency of a single, twice as much plumbing, depending on the turbo and manifold twice as many wastegates, etc.

EDIT: I prepared a long diatribe about how compound turbos are always better than a single, regardless of the single turbo, then the I remembered that "twins" refers to two small turbos working independently.

Agreed, twin turbos are a thing of the past. @Rice should install a set of compound turbos

 

[GLTHFJ60]

But any time you have 2 turbos, you have twice the inefficiency of a single, twice as much plumbing, depending on the turbo and manifold twice as many wastegates, etc.

More plumbing, sure, possibly one more wastegate, yes, but twice the "inefficiency"? You're using the same exhaust gas to power two turbines now instead of one. There are frictional losses in the bushings/bearings of the turbo and there can be more exhaust backpressure, but I wouldn't generalize by saying "twice the inefficiency". If anything, you're more efficient at making boost with compound turbos.

EDIT: Don't need to derail this anymore. Single turbo for this application will provide plenty of boost.

 

[elkaholic]

Well @Rice , it looks like Johnny just cut your deadline down to 2 weeks

 

[scottryana]

Yes twice is being a little exaggerative, I meant twice as inefficient as a single the same size, but it would lose power to frictional loses, from the hot exhaust gas cooling, more back pressure, trying to push all the exhaust threw a small wastegate around the small turbo to the big turbo, etc. I think these systems were concieved as a way to get old clunky turbos to spool quickly. With new billet turbines, gammati wheels, improved geometry, etc these systems just have very little use except on a diesel.

If anyone has heard me reference my buddy Marc that has done all my turbo work, here he is back in 2009 talking about doing a compound setup... He has since given up on it and gone single because on paper it looks good but in the real world it just never performed right.

More plumbing, sure, possibly one more wastegate, yes, but twice the "inefficiency"? You're using the same exhaust gas to power two turbines now instead of one. There are frictional losses in the bushings/bearings of the turbo and there can be more exhaust backpressure, but I wouldn't generalize by saying "twice the inefficiency". If anything, you're more efficient at making boost with compound turbos.

EDIT: Don't need to derail this anymore. Single turbo for this application will provide plenty of boost.

 

[lumbee1]

I so want to pull my 1FZFE now and rebuild it. The wife would stab me if I even proposed a rebuild at this point.

My to-do list:
Finish weld rear bumper swingouts
Prime and paint bumper
Weld up jerry can holder
Wire refrigerator and remote thermometer
Prep new Ubuntu server
Configure NFS/Samba and backup cron
Backup current Windows system
Study for HAM
Study for NCDA
Schedule NCDA BEFORE the end of year
Make mounts for Foxwing
Sell mattress
Photo and box up fender flares
Polish sear
Plan and build drawer and platform before March
Hang kayaks
Sell tires
Clean garage of clothes and DVD's
Bike storage
Sell trail-a-bike

 

[Rice]

I so want to pull my 1FZFE now and rebuild it. The wife would stab me if I even proposed a rebuild at this point.

My to-do list:
Finish weld rear bumper swingouts
Prime and paint bumper
Weld up jerry can holder
Wire refrigerator and remote thermometer
Prep new Ubuntu server
Configure NFS/Samba and backup cron
Backup current Windows system
Study for HAM
Study for NCDA
Schedule NCDA BEFORE the end of year
Make mounts for Foxwing
Sell mattress
Photo and box up fender flares
Polish sear
Plan and build drawer and platform before March
Hang kayaks
Sell tires
Clean garage of clothes and DVD's
Bike storage
Sell trail-a-bike

Sell is in that list several times. That should help on the build. The secret is to perform the build on a separate engine so a slow pay-as-you-go build can happen rather than one Euuuge outlay of cash at once.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Agreed, tuning is always the most difficult part. Plenty of guys with turbos on diesels have trouble tuning their compound setup properly. So many gauges are needed to do it correctly that most people skip a lot of it, then there's always the possibility (if not properly tuned) of having so much backpressure that you choke the engine OR force wastegates to open prematurely.

Tuning issues aside, the big advantage of a compound turbo setup is not the peak HP number (that's not a scientific way to rate a turbo anyway IMHO) but how quickly the boost comes on and how flat boost delivery can be. I doubt that a 58mm turbo on a 4.5l engine can spool before (pulling this out of my ass) 3000RPM. On an engine like the 1FZ, that's past the N/A torque peak and would result in lots of driver-felt turbo lag. With a smaller single you can spool up to 30psi before 2000rpm on a 4.5l motor but not have enough flow for the top end. A well matched and tuned compound setup can deliver plenty of boost throughout the entire RPM range without gross inefficiencies anywhere. In my mind I compare a well-tuned compound setup's boost delivery to that of a supercharger, but with much more intake air density and higher power potential

Lightweight turbines, compressors and VGT systems can all help the turbo spool faster and not choke as RPMs come up but you're still limited to a static compressor size and therefore map. There's always a compromise to be made and my point is that there are less compromises with a compound setup than with a single turbo, when talking about tuning and engine performance. Plumbing and fitment are more of a pain however.


I realize that my knowledge is in the context of diesel engines, but the concepts are the same, with the exception of how fueling affects combustion temperature (that's inverted between gas and diesel).


Rice should go with a smaller single IMHO, something around 50mm, for the boost levels he wants, to ensure that there isn't a lot of lag. 4500 redline is pretty low for a gas engine so a smaller turbo would serve him better. My 46mm turbo with 6cm2 turbine housing hits 30psi at 2000rpm, so I think the map would be a decent match but rice would want a larger turbine housing, somewhere between 9-12cm2. Unfortunately I don't know how Holset turbine housing dimensions map to Garret turbine housing dimensions, but Garret has that sweet turbine map calculator tool, so Rice can play with that to see where he wants his boost to come on. This is slick as s***:

Garrett Boost Adviser - Online | Turbobygarrett

 

[JohnVee]

I'm amazed that somebody can just yank out a motor, know what to do for whatever gain, then do it in a timely manner getting almost everything right the first time. More power to you, Rice. But I won't say you make me look bad because none of y'all have any expectation of skills from me.

 

[Rice]

EDIT: Don't need to derail this anymore. Single turbo for this application will provide plenty of boost.

No worries on the derail. There are good folks here sharing good ideas in a time when the actual build is on hold while I take in some holiday and family time.