I dont recall mentioning the billet cone ? I know that AA offered a HD version which had larger output flanges. I have cracked 1 ear on a stock cone other than that I have satisfied myself that the cone isnt necessarily a weak point.
O R I O N (6 Viewers)
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So, I'm having a problem with my Orion. As there are now 47 pages on the Orion sticky, please forgive me for asking a dumb question and not going through all those pages. I did go back a couple of pages and didn't see anything. My Orion is probably 4 years old now. I've had this problem since it was built (by me and a "buddy that knows these") of it popping out of gear on deceleration. At first it was only in low range on steep (and I mean STEEP) declines. I didn't think too much of it, as I don't drive it a ton. However, now, it does it in high range just decelerating. So, I want to get this figured out. I'm going to be pulling the t/c soon, hopefully tomorrow. What do I need to be looking for as a culprit? I have verified that the shift linkage is not the problem. I have disconnected it and shifted it, went for a drive with it disconnected, and it still popped out of gear. So, what else? When we built the Orion, I used all the new parts AA would sell me (i.e. hi/low clutch sleeve, new output shaft, etc). However, I do know that we did NOT measure the end play of the gears (.008-.012" is what it calls for) before reassembly. My bad. I'll own that one. That was going to be my first step once it is taken apart. Did I put something together wrong? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Kurt @cruiseroutfit or Georg @orangefj45, I know you guys have built a ton of these. Any suggestions?
And a pic of my rig with Kurt and his rig at Cruise Moab a few years ago just cuz...
Thanks again everyone!
Kyle
And a pic of my rig with Kurt and his rig at Cruise Moab a few years ago just cuz...
Thanks again everyone!
Kyle
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Chances are the hi-lo fork and collar are both worn, prematurely. My symptoms were the same.
I had a similar problem and I mixed and matched the shift rail, spring, and ball bearing until I got a combination that would hold. I don’t remember which was Toyota and what was AA, it was more about playing with it to find the right combo. I used a digital torque wrench to measure the resistance in the selection. Since I did that, I have had zero issues with popping out of gear.
I'd be very curious to hear what your end play measurements are when you drop the Orion.
Great pic, that was a fun day!
clearance between output shaft and bushing inside hi speed gear, I bet it is hour glass shaped, measure front, back & middle. Shift collar and dog teeth condition. Mine still pops out hi on decent/decel, I know the bungee is wrong, its been 20 years and the original shift fork is still going, my 40 doesnt get alot of miles. Keep flipping pages in the thread until you get to Georgs pics & desc of the diff splines on shift collar & shafts. Georg has these down.
The fork is worn a bit oddly. It seems it isn't making contact with the shift collar evenly front to back - tilted maybe a better word. The shift fork and collar were new from AA when I installed them. So what should I do here? Leave it alone? File down the fork to make it sit flush? Use the stock fork that has some wear? But read on for the other issues...
I looked at this a little bit before I dug deeper. I could definitely add more preload on that spring with the stock Toyota screw instead of the AA bolt. I might play with this when I put it back together. Luckily I still have all the old parts from when I built this 4 years ago.
Turns out the end play was .006. AA recommends .008 - .012. The FSM says .006 - .015 works. So I'm going to call it good. I'd rather have it a little tight than a little loose.
Winner Winner! High speed gear bushing is augered out. Anyone know the part number for the bushing? AA says it is a Toyota part, but they don't stock it. I ordered another high speed gear with the bushing already installed for the interim. I'll get a bushing at some point and keep this gear as a spare in case I need to do this again. In the pics below, the bushing looks burned. I'm guessing this is my fault due to a flat tow I did without removing the driveshaft early after building the Orion. I won't be doing that again. And yes, the gear clearly wobbles on the shaft. Low speed gear bushing is fine.
Thanks for the help everyone. It is much appreciated!
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While one would like to think that, like the old adage, a 10 cent fuse will blow before a $300 TV, those of us who live in Murphy’s world know that is not the case. What it means here is that while a bronze bushing should deterio before a hardened steel output shaft, unless you are really, really sure about your output shaft, I would replace it as well.
As for the fork, put it in the collar and use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the fork and the slot in the collar. There’s a spec for that too.
As for the fork, put it in the collar and use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the fork and the slot in the collar. There’s a spec for that too.
Mark/Mr Murphy, I don't like what you are implying. And I don't like that I just went out with my caliper and measured my output shaft. And I really don't like that I just ordered a new output shaft since mine is most definitely worn. D'oh! But THANK YOU for posting that up. You definitely saved me some time and heartache. And thanks for the tip on the shift fork. I'll do that shortly.
The AA forks have been proven to be twisted out of the box. When checking the output to bushing measure at both ends and in the middle, see what you get, curious what the gap/difference was ? That bushing is for some reason hard to find if at all.
Isn‘t that bushing just the 75-80 era? Or did AA use the earlier variant? I’ll have to measure an Orion tomorrow. We have OEM and aftermarket of the 75-80 in stock @ Cruiser Outfitters
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FWIW, I stock and sell the output shaft, and wouldn't have minded if you'd at least feigned an interest in purchasing one from me. One of the reasons I don't spend much time in tech anymore.
Ordering my Orion from @orangefj45 and want to make sure the popping out of gear is not a thing about these transfer cases. It's one of the main reasons I am upgrading from the stock one.
orangefj45
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Extremely uncommon issue at this point but it can still happen ( very very rarely ).
Typically the “popping out of gear” issue is caused by the linkage interfering or being “limited” in movement by the shifter boot(s) and/or the hole in the transmission tunnel being too small and not allowing the shift lever to move as far as they need to.
Georg @ Valley Hybrids @ Cruiser Brothers
thanks for the prompt reply. be a shame for me to spend all this extra money and ending up with the same result.
Georg,
Any updates on the shift forks being slightly warped in heat treating or some of the other theories that were floating around about this? Is that something you see?
I need some help from the Orion brain trust.
I installed a new Orion 4 this spring. I've put a couple hundred miles on it with no issues then recently I started to have a shuttering on deceleration. It feels like the gear tooth engagement is problematic and feels like it is binding as I decelerated. It occurs in 2HI. At first I thought it might have been one of the inner mounting bolts that came loose and was making contact with a gear. I opened the PTO inspection place and all inner mount bolts were tight.
I put the vehicle on jack stands and could replicate the sound and feel and the sound goes away when I removed the rear driveline. I thought it might be rear diff so I rebuilt everything (new pinion bearings, new carrier bearings, new ring and pinion gear). I took a test drive today and the shutter still exists so I'm thinking it's got to be in the Orion since that's the only new or recent change.
Today I pulled the transmission and transferase to inspect and see if I can determine a cause. I don't see anything obvious but I have a feeling this is going to be difficult to diagnose on the bench since it seemed to need deceleration resistance for the problem to show up.
The only other thing I can think of is I recently dropped the gear oil and replaced it with new. When I originally installed the Orion I used 75W-90 GL-5 synthetic. When I replaced it, I used the old-school GL-4 90W since that's what I run in the transmission. The shutter began after the oil change but I'm not sure this is the correlation.
Any thoughts or things to specially look for? I'm at a loss.
I installed a new Orion 4 this spring. I've put a couple hundred miles on it with no issues then recently I started to have a shuttering on deceleration. It feels like the gear tooth engagement is problematic and feels like it is binding as I decelerated. It occurs in 2HI. At first I thought it might have been one of the inner mounting bolts that came loose and was making contact with a gear. I opened the PTO inspection place and all inner mount bolts were tight.
I put the vehicle on jack stands and could replicate the sound and feel and the sound goes away when I removed the rear driveline. I thought it might be rear diff so I rebuilt everything (new pinion bearings, new carrier bearings, new ring and pinion gear). I took a test drive today and the shutter still exists so I'm thinking it's got to be in the Orion since that's the only new or recent change.
Today I pulled the transmission and transferase to inspect and see if I can determine a cause. I don't see anything obvious but I have a feeling this is going to be difficult to diagnose on the bench since it seemed to need deceleration resistance for the problem to show up.
The only other thing I can think of is I recently dropped the gear oil and replaced it with new. When I originally installed the Orion I used 75W-90 GL-5 synthetic. When I replaced it, I used the old-school GL-4 90W since that's what I run in the transmission. The shutter began after the oil change but I'm not sure this is the correlation.
Any thoughts or things to specially look for? I'm at a loss.
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Based on your test result from removing the rear driveshaft I would recommend revisiting the preload on the output bearings.
Can this be done while still attached to the transmission? I'm guessing no since I think all the instruction assume it's decoupled.
I'm curious how you got to bearing preload? Does that change the gear position to cause some kind of binding? I'm just a logical mind wanting to learn. Thanks for the prompt replay @65swb45, I appreciate the insight.
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If you have to ask about setting the preload, it's reasonable to assume that you did not build the case yourself. And that would make me inclined to ask the shop that build it.
There are tons of threads on the forum about setting the preload on the output bearings.
Was the output shaft new?
