O R I O N (2 Viewers)

[NikP]

No Joy! After dropping the Orion transfer and replacing the original output shaft with a new one along with a new HI/LO sleeve and working to meticulously put this together within all the defined specs, I pop out of 4Lo and 4Hi when decelerating or riding against the back pressure of the engine on a down slope.

Needless to say, I'm not too happy. I don't know where to even start since it pops out of both 4hi and 4lo. I think it might be different if it was one or the other but it both doesn't seem to make sense because the Hi/Lo sleeve is popping out to move both directions and not just one. I'm guessing it will pop out of 2Hi if it wasn't for these stock shifter bracket having the tab in place to prevent selecting 2 Lo.

I have the stock 4WD linkage so in the next day or two I'm going to try and disconnect the Hi/Lo linkage and see if the problem persists with no linkage connected. This will help identify if the linkage is playing a contributing role. If the problem persists without the linkage attached, this means the internal forces are exceeding the detention spring pressure and allowing the shift sleeve to pop to neutral.

Any other ideas for things to look at?

 

[peesalot]

FWIW and IMO when you have a worn rear driveshaft spip spline which causes vibes on deccel & in some cases at say 45ish, those vibes from the drive line help to rattle that collar. You never responded to what the clearance between out shaft & hi speed & low speed bushings was ? are the dog teeth on the output worn ? Have you used the updated detent rail & spring/ball ?

 

[NikP]

you have a worn rear driveshaft spip spline

are the dog teeth on the output worn ?

It's a new output shaft. How can the spline and the teeth be worn? New output shaft, new hi/lo shift collar, and new low and high-speed Orion gears.

Have you used the updated detent rail & spring/ball ?

Yes, I used what was in the Orion kit, unless Advance Adapters has an update since February when they shipped it.

 

[peesalot]

Well then, if it is a new, fine spline output & the shaft to bushing clearance is tight, not .008, thats loose, then you should call Georg IMO as its not adding up ?

 

[NikP]

I reached out to AA for support who said pull the transferase and we'll inspect a few things. After pulling it, I spent a dismal week with pathetic support to really get nothing to "inspect". They had me take a picture of my new hi/lo shift collar (shift slider). That's the only guidance I received after telling them it was new along with a new output shaft. This guidance was after a daily call or a daily email trying to get a response.

So in the interim, here's my own observations and possible theories of contributing factors. I'm no gear maker, but there are design differences in the Orion supplied gear and the original stock gear.

First: Based on an unscientific caliper measurement of the base of the dog-teeth, the Orion gear is not as wide at the base of the tooth (and I assume the rest of the tooth is also consistently not as wide). With the teeth not as wide, there is more play in the hi/lo sleeve. With more play, the sleeve can move more freely. A second observation on the dog-teeth is the teeth on the stock gear has two widths. Every 4th tooth is wider than the two teeth in between. A gear engineer will have to chime in on the science for this design vs. the Orion.

Below is the stock gear with every 4th tooth a different width.

And the caliper measurements of every 4th tooth:

vs. the teeth in between:

Then compared with the Orion gear which seems to have all teeth machined to a consistent size and the width is roughly .5mm narrower than the stock gears widest tooth. That difference can cause the hi/lo collar to fit with a lot of clearance. Clearance in gears isn't a desirable trait.

 

[NikP]

The second design difference lies in the tooth profile. The stock tooth profile is squared. There's another post on the forum

Orion gear info...

Here are some pictures of the low and high speed gears from the Orion #150, but first, a stock Toyota low speed gear...

forum.ih8mud.com

about this and you can see this in the previous post's picture. Below you can see the Orion gear has a pointed tooth. My theory is the pointed tooth allows for the hi/lo slider to have a ramp to more easily disengage and AA confirm this with the following quote: "you are right to assume that the angled teeth can cause the shift collar to release from engagement prematurely"

The third potentially contributing issue is the tolerance of the detent slider shaft. The Orion shaft/shift fork has more sideways play than the stock one.

Compared to stock:

So these are my contributory observations. I'm giving up since I doubt AA or anyone can definitively provide a proven solution and I'm going to focus on ways to lock the gear shifter into place (may use the elegant bungee cord design).

One other theory is the gear to output shaft clearance tolerance. But the gears are new and the shaft is new. Even Georg didn't worry about this in his video here. If that's a critical element, I would assume he'd be checking this on the install along with end-play.

Georg and Project Wrong Way Build an Orion Part 2, 3, and 4 (3/09)

OG, did ya catch that, he said mating time out load.

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[peesalot]

Your right, the bushing to shaft clearance is a non issue, my bad, nevermind. Good luck.

 

[cstav86]

@NikP is your case one of their 4th generations? Accoding to Georg, the 3rd gen cases had all the issues worked out, but some changes they made to the 4th generation are creating this problem. I am currently having the same problem and am being told by Georg it is a design issue and there really isn't much you can do and AA is not going to re-tool their machinery since our demand is too low. We are going to throw some fresh parts at it, shift detent & spring, an old style shift fork if one can be found and see if that helps.

My issue is the shifter/gear "walks" itself out of gear when there is backpressure from the engine. I put a tape measure on it and after about 45 seconds on steep descent the shifter walks about 3/4" from it's original position and pops out of gear. All gears and shafts are new. Love this case and it makes the truck a much better off road rig for someone with less experince and I can take obstacles slower.

 

[NikP]

@cstav86 I'm not sure what generation I have. I assume it's 4th since I continue to have issues. If the problems were solved in gen3 and demand is low it makes you wonder why they even made changes

My calls to Advanced Adapters went unanswered until decided I'd had enough and set an email to the owner. I then had a prompt response and they sent me a new detent ball and spring and a a gasket kit required to put it all together. My experience is that the detent isn't the issue. There's much more force on the gear than they realize. I had mine pop out of gear when held in place with the locking mechanism I describe below.

I lost hope that someone might know what the issue is and might have a solution.

I love the gearing and wasn't willing to go back to stock. I however wasn't willing to live with a redneck solution of a bungee cord holding it in gear. I ended up fabricating a locking mechanism which bolts to the transmission top and allows a pop pin to lock the shifter in place for high and low range. I activate the pop pin with a bicycle shift lever and cable. Since I've installed it, I've had no issues. In the early iteration of this locking mechanism, it still jumped out of gear which caused me to believe the pressure is much much more than then think and is definitely more than a detent spring will hold. After some adjustments along the way, I finally have it all dialed in. I did a week-long trip in Moab last month and never had any issues.

I've attached few pictures of the locking plate that I fabricated that mounts to the transmission top. I welded a pop pin to the shift lever and the pop pin locks into two holes drilled at each end of the shifter range. The photo's are from an early iteration when I was testing it and I just had a wire attached so I could pull up the pop pin. I later replaced this with a bicycle cable and shift lever to make this look more reputable.

I thought I had a picture of the bicycle cable and lever but I don't so I'll post tomorrow.

 

[cstav86]

@NikP that is a killer solution. I agree on the pressure on the gear. Was on the Hahn's peak trail in October and had to hold the shifter with some force to keep it from popping out.

 

[NikP]

@cstav86 here's photos of my locking mechanism. I can activate it with a finger while shifting to high or low range so it's pretty slick and it beats a bungee cord.

I've also added a document here that I submitted to Advanced Adapters with some thoughts after mine attempted to jump out of gear with an early iteration of this lock mechanism installed. I never heard anything back. (Their customer service on the Orion is pitiful).

I ended up doing some fine adjustment of the locking holes and it's been good since.

 

[Blue77FJ40]

I have the stepped washer and the detents/ball installed, as downhills in low range, lever will pop out. The stepped washer stopped the popping out in hi range on the highway on downhills though.

I made a nylon two piece holding strap with quick release buckle to keep the lever from popping out. One end is attached to the seat frame via a small piece of aluminum bolted in place with a slot for strap (sewn in place) and the other is on the twin stick lever (also sewn on). Whenever I need low range, I snap the strap together. I’d snap a pic, but I put the cover on for the winter.

It’s funny, your bike shift lever is what I use for my cruise control on the highway! I hooked it up to the throttle rod.

 

[C6H12O6]

I've had the same discussion with Georg at Rubicon after I had issues all the way down and back from Portland after I built my '74 case into the Orion with all the supposedly best new parts available. Bungee cord got me through the trip, but I've been nervous about constantly pulling it up against the opposite side for long.

I c-clamped a piece of HDPE cutting board to block the travel to N, but still allow the H-N-L lever to move around a little bit. Good proof of concept, but not practical long-term or on the trail, obviously. I've been working on a design for a sliding metal bar that could be pulled out of the way to shift, but slid back into place once in either H or L to prevent it from moving back to N from either direction. I'm popping out of both H and L, but this limit system seems to work great. When compression breaking or coasting downhill in gear, you can see the shifter start to drift, but it stops when it hits before jumping to N, and a quick press of either gas or clutch, and it just jumps right back to fully engaged in gear. I just need to figure out the right size and position so the blocking bar can prevent the bad movement, but allow some good freedom of movement. Could be fabbed up as a bolt-on solution if I can get it right.

 

[559Fj40]

I have wanted to pull the trigger on this transfer case for a long time now. Coming from a dual case pickup, I really miss the control I had with that low gearing. The sm420 and 3 speed case is ok and gets the job done for sure, but sometimes I really wish I had more. It's just tough for me to want to spend money on something that's a want rather than a need, especially with these popping out of gear issues. Oh well, back to staring at it in my cart on advance adapters.... I have a bit more time to procrastinate before summer anyway.

 

[NikP]

It's just tough for me to want to spend money on something that's a want rather than a need, especially with these popping out of gear issues.

Yep. You’d think after 20 years, these issues would be resolved. If you pull the trigger, plan on solutions to keep it locked in gear since AA support will be nonexistent.

 

[peesalot]

It helps the popping out on decelerating if the rear drive line is balanced good. Georg posted pics of the different output shafts and explained the differences in their dog teeth earlier in this thread. Some pop out of low, some pop out of high. Mine has popped out of Hi since day 1, I have case #100, very, very early Orion before any changes/updates. Never has it popped out of low. It got better after the refresh when I installed LS in 06'. The shift fork was worn from bungee but not anything shocking. After ALOT of hands on, watching & learning it is my opinion that a successful Orion is a matter of output shaft dog teeth shape/condition, shift collar dog teeth condition, & shaft to bearing clearance on the Hi & Lo gears. A vibrating rear dline will amplify the issue. I have been into my Orion 3 times in the last 20 years & helped others. It held up fine with normal wear. The last time it was open was because the inner lower case mount bolt backed out and ran thru the gears and tried to window the case at the bottom. I was lucky that it wasnt terminal, Gary got the parts from AA and put er back together. I have done my Orion and I have had the experts hands in it to try and solve the popping out issues. When Gary put it back together it got new (3rd) shift collar, used fork it had because new one was not straight, and used the AA supplied shift rail update. Mine has the older coarse spline output so it is the most likely to pop out given the dog tooth design on those shafts, they are different than the later shafts ( see Georgs photos as mentioned ). You could play with outputs, gears, & shift collars until you found a set that bites and stays in gear and the gear bearing to output shaft clearance is tight, then IMO the Orion wouldn't pop outa gear.
Mine is 21 years old and yes, it pops outa high on long decels and if you are downhill steep it just slides itself outa gear like quick.

 

[archie73]

I have wanted to pull the trigger on this transfer case for a long time now. Coming from a dual case pickup, I really miss the control I had with that low gearing. The sm420 and 3 speed case is ok and gets the job done for sure, but sometimes I really wish I had more.

it is lovely having the 4:1 at your fingertips playing in the rocks is a joy.

I have been into the Orion 3 times in the last 20 years. It held up fine with normal wear. The last time it was open was because the inner lower case mount bolt backed out and ran thru the gears and tried to window the case at the bottom.

This is the reason I bought my Orion. Glad I’m not the only one. It would have been cheaper for me to get a stock case, but the added strength and gearing easily made up for the price difference.

For me the popping out of gear seems to be mostly fixed by dialling in the detent ball & shift fork. I had the old and new pieces and mismatched them until I had the most retention in the shift positions. Whether this works for anyone else, I don’t know.

On a recent trip to Moab I did have it pop out one time, but I didn’t think much about it at the time. Maybe my “fix” is coming to an end. If so the the bungee will come back out and it’ll still be worth it.

 

[C6H12O6]

Yeah, it's a bummer it pops out, but I would 0% switch back to stock gears because of it. Sooooo worth it in the rocks. If you are looking for lower gearing, don't let this stop you. It's irritating, but not a deal breaker.

 

[msapers]

Ugh. I'm just starting my build and was about to pull the trigger on one of these to go behind a small block/NV4500 but the popping out of gear thing has got me worried.

 

[StinkyPig]

I own a couple. Both pop out even with all new parts. Bungee cord works too in a pinch. Its still worth it. There's no going back.