Harrop Supercharger for 21 LC (1 Viewer)

[bloc]

Tuning would likely pull some fuel out at high boost for greater BMEP, sacrificing some margin for power.

Unless the owner specified retaining that margin was the primary goal.

This gets at the root of the issue for me. Yes, these systems have proven themselves very well, but they are leveraging Toyota’s conservative tuning margin to do so, versus a tune derived from feedback on that engine that can keep the same margin even with the new induction system.

 

[gluaisrothai]

Unless the owner specified retaining that margin was the primary goal.

This gets at the root of the issue for me. Yes, these systems have proven themselves very well, but they are leveraging Toyota’s conservative tuning margin to do so, versus a tune derived from feedback on that engine that can keep the same margin even with the new induction system.

That’s not quite the entire story. There is a modification to the fuel pressure regulator to slightly increase rail pressure and a high performance pump to ensure fuel flow doesn’t drop off a the high end of demand. And of course the engine does provide feedback through the MAF and IAT sense to drive the increased fuel flow to match boost.

But to your point, a custom tune would likely have less detonation margin than the Harrop Stage 1. Unless you specifically asked for a tune with less power which is not probable.

On a semi related note I have purchased two overhauled Lycoming motors this year for Cessna 172s. They were both test run at the engine shop for initial break-in and performance testing. Our IA complained that both carbs idle adjustments were set so lean that he couldn’t get them to idle (airplane engine OHs come with all new accessories including mags and carb). Turns out that the engine shop is at 6000 feet in Golden CO so naturally they were dialed in for ambient which didn’t work so well at Oakland…

 

[bloc]

But to your point, a custom tune would likely have less detonation margin than the Harrop Stage 1. Unless you specifically asked for a tune with less power which is not probable.

A good tuner should be able to make margin the priority if that’s what the customer asks for.

 

[gluaisrothai]

What benefits do you get running this $8k+ item?

Just to weigh in- I get more horsepower from my Harrop blown LC at 6k feet driving around Lake Tahoe than I did at sea level before I fitted the supercharger. The SC is great if you do much driving at high elevations.

Best
Ken

 

[NKP Garage]

Just to weigh in- I get better than sea level horsepower from a naturally aspirated LC at 6k feet driving around Lake Tahoe. The SC is great if you do much driving at high elevations.

Best
Ken

good point.

 

[Docwyte]

Let’s put it this way, if Harrop had the ability to include a tune for the ’16+ kits, they would. They don’t right now and are saying it‘s ok to run on a stock tune.

I’ll go with my personal experience of running tuned forced induction cars for 25 years to tell me that’s playing with fire and I’ll wait until a proper tune is available before I decide whether or not to purchase a kit.

 

[gluaisrothai]

A good tuner should be able to make margin the priority if that’s what the customer asks for.

Of course, but that would have less power. No free lunch. Less margin/more power, more power/less margin- take your pick. Anyone tells you otherwise is a s***ehawk.

 

[gluaisrothai]

Let’s put it this way, if Harrop had the ability to include a tune for the ’16+ kits, they would. They don’t right now and are saying it‘s ok to run on a stock tune.

I’ll go with my personal experience of running tuned forced induction cars for 25 years to tell me that’s playing with fire and I’ll wait until a proper tune is available before I decide whether or not to purchase a kit.

This.

At this point this debate is like the LOP/ROP fockery on the pilot forums. No amount of evidence is going to shift anyone so I'm out unless there is a question on installation or performance.

 

[Rawrear]

Let’s put it this way, if Harrop had the ability to include a tune for the ’16+ kits, they would. They don’t right now and are saying it‘s ok to run on a stock tune.

I’ll go with my personal experience of running tuned forced induction cars for 25 years to tell me that’s playing with fire and I’ll wait until a proper tune is available before I decide whether or not to purchase a kit.

I agree, it’s not a viable product with out a tune.

 

[skrypj]

Exactly. And the testing performed by Harrop demonstrated that the MAF and the corresponding fuel/timing tables had coverage with margin for their Stage 1 kit and 91 grade US fuel.

Corollary- A tuner would not have MAP data either, and would have to leverage the existing LC sensor paradigm.

On my GX460 with the 1UR-FE, I could monitor MAP via the OBDLink App with the enhanced Toyota diagnositcs addon. I never could figure out if that was reading from a sensor or if the ECU was calculating the MAP based on MAF.

The thing is, when the engine was off, it would read the correct pressure of the ambient air at 800 mbar(I live at 6500'). So it was either reading from an actual sensor or it was using a combination of MAF and barometric pressure readings to figure calculate the MAP

 

[skrypj]

Just to weigh in- I get more horsepower from my Harrop blown LC at 6k feet driving around Lake Tahoe than I did at sea level before I fitted the supercharger. The SC is great if you do much driving at high elevations.

Best
Ken

This is why I would want it. My living room is at 6500' and I tow at that elevation an higher. Not that the stock 5.7L can't do it, but it would be nice to have a little overhead. Towing on a hot day in a head wind at 7000' in Wyoming is extremely demanding on any truck short of an HD diesel.

I figure at 6500' I will really be making about 3psi of boost, not much more power than the stock truck, but a little more.

Let’s put it this way, if Harrop had the ability to include a tune for the ’16+ kits, they would. They don’t right now and are saying it‘s ok to run on a stock tune.

I’ll go with my personal experience of running tuned forced induction cars for 25 years to tell me that’s playing with fire and I’ll wait until a proper tune is available before I decide whether or not to purchase a kit.

While I have not seen the 2016+ tuning, I have VFTuner and have looked at both the 4.6L GX460 and 5.7L tunes. I also i have HPTuners and have poked around the Tundra tunes. I have also looked at the factory Tundra TRD Supercharger tune.

The tuning is set up right from the factory for air loads beyond 1(1 being sea level pressure in the manifold. I believe my GX460 went out to an air load of 1.5 or 7.35 psi of boost.

I would possibly be a little concerned if I were in Death Valley or something on a cold day where the air density is really high. That might overrun the capability in the tune from what I remember since the supercharger is claimed to put out 6.5 psi. Anything warm and higher elevation and the output of the supercharger is going to drop. Where I live, the supercharger would only be putting out about 3 psi since its having to compensate for the ambient air being 3 psi less than sea level and there is a loss in the pressure ratio multiplication.

I believe there also is several AFR modifiers based on air load but I will go back and review.

 

[skrypj]

So I found out today that VFTuner actually does support the 2016+ 200 series. I scanned my 2018 LX and got an ECU ID of 360T1100 and they have the corresponding file in VFTuner. The file does show 8 speeds in the transmission shifting schedule tables.

So any competent shop should be able to tune these with a supercharger.

Additionally, the tables in the tune appear to be pretty much identical to what is in the Tundra tunes, like down to the 2nd decimal place, even going back to the earlier second gens. That means the TRD Supercharged tune parameters could be copied into the new tune I believe. I have the TRD Supercharger tune on HPTuners and VFTuner, and I do know that they have tweaked some parameters to make the engine more efficient with the blower(Cam timing, torque to air load calculations, etc).

That said, the Harrop Supercharger is a TVS2650, whereas the TRD Supercharger was a TVS1900, so I believe the TRD tune would be like 95% good but could be fine tuned for the higher capacity 2650.

Anyways, its all there. Someone just needs to get a tune together.

 

[bloc]

So I found out today that VFTuner actually does support the 2016+ 200 series. I scanned my 2018 LX and got an ECU ID of 360T1100 and they have the corresponding file in VFTuner. The file does show 8 speeds in the transmission shifting schedule tables.

So any competent shop should be able to tune these with a supercharger.

Additionally, the tables in the tune appear to be pretty much identical to what is in the Tundra tunes, like down to the 2nd decimal place, even going back to the earlier second gens. That means the TRD Supercharged tune parameters could be copied into the new tune I believe. I have the TRD Supercharger tune on HPTuners and VFTuner, and I do know that they have tweaked some parameters to make the engine more efficient with the blower(Cam timing, torque to air load calculations, etc).

That said, the Harrop Supercharger is a TVS2650, whereas the TRD Supercharger was a TVS1900, so I believe the TRD tune would be like 95% good but could be fine tuned for the higher capacity 2650.

Anyways, its all there. Someone just needs to get a tune together.

Are we certain all years of 200 are the same? I seem to remember some year splits in the 2016+ group where tuners could then couldn’t get in, suggesting Toyota may have changed elements of the architecture or encryption. But this could also be that they just haven’t yet tried..

 

[gluaisrothai]

Are we certain all years of 200 are the same? I seem to remember some year splits in the 2016+ group where tuners could then couldn’t get in, suggesting Toyota may have changed elements of the architecture or encryption. But this could also be that they just haven’t yet tried..

2021 (mine) has calibration 36AA5000. I bought a new ECU, shipped to S.Korea for cracking, have it back now but have not had time to install and scan yet.

 

[skrypj]

Are we certain all years of 200 are the same? I seem to remember some year splits in the 2016+ group where tuners could then couldn’t get in, suggesting Toyota may have changed elements of the architecture or encryption. But this could also be that they just haven’t yet tried..

Possibly. All I know is I can see my 2018 tune. If someone has a 2021 and wants to post their ECU ID I can look

 

[skrypj]

2021 (mine) has calibration 36AA5000. I bought a new ECU, shipped to S.Korea for cracking, have it back now but have not had time to install and scan yet.

Yes I am pretty sure I see your calibration in VFTuner. Listed as 89663-6AA50

 

[gluaisrothai]

Yes I am pretty sure I see your calibration in VFTuner. Listed as 89663-6AA50

I wonder if that is what they used my ECU for because they definitely did not have my cal ID available when I talked to them first….and explains why they shipped me a free VF kit…

 

[bloc]

Either way it seems progress is being made, which is great news for people wanting SC without the compromises.

 

[gluaisrothai]

Confirmed that the 2021 Heritage Edition LC is now supported by VF Tuner. If your ECU is p/n 89666-60R40 and your calibration ID is 36AA5000, you will be able to view/edit maps and flash your ECU.

The base map is not set up perfectly for edit, for example I can only see the TC lockup schedule for gears 2-6, not 7 or 8- but most settings are available.

 

[skrypj]

Confirmed that the 2021 Heritage Edition LC is now supported by VF Tuner. If your ECU is p/n 89666-60R40 and your calibration ID is 36AA5000, you will be able to view/edit maps and flash your ECU.

The base map is not set up perfectly for edit, for example I can only see the TC lockup schedule for gears 2-6, not 7 or 8- but most settings are available.

I noticed that in my tune as well but I wonder if the TC is just always locked up in 7 and 8 so it’s not available to edit. My f150 would be locked up almost all the time starting in 4th gear and I’m pretty sure 5 and 6th gears were setup so that the TC was always locked(ie the TC lockup speed was set lower than the 4->5 and 5->6 shift speed).

I’m not sure why you would want the TC unlocked in those gears any ways