Dynamat alternative

[little_joe]

Gee, the issues w/ Peel-n-Seal and any asphalt damper sound exactly the same as the issues with Second Skin! I took out my cargo area carpet last night and got treated to a gooey mess underneath. Coupled with the fact it made no appreciable difference in sound or heat damping inside, Peel-n-Seal sounds like a great alternative.

 

[yoopercharged]

Gee, the issues w/ Peel-n-Seal and any asphalt damper sound exactly the same as the issues with Second Skin! I took out my cargo area carpet last night and got treated to a gooey mess underneath. Coupled with the fact it made no appreciable difference in sound or heat damping inside, Peel-n-Seal sounds like a great alternative.

You could just wear earplugs too! Have you talked to Anthony at second skin? I've heard that they are pretty good about standing behind their product. I think every company gets a bad batch once in awhile.

 

[Bluetribal]

no interest in edead? it is cheaper and a better product.

god, i sound like a broken record advertising for elemental designs. im done

So what's up with this e-dead product? Did you end up using it how do you like it? My lunch break is over but this evening I will search to see if you posted anything up on the installation of this product.

 

[FirstToy]

The only worry I would have is off-gassing or toxic fumes from the asphalt. Is it safe in an enclosed environment?

 

[Ebag333]

The only worry I would have is off-gassing or toxic fumes from the asphalt. Is it safe in an enclosed environment?

Is it going to kill you? Probably not right away. Then again, "safe" is a relative term, plenty of people smoke cigs after all.

I would not use any asphalt based product. They do not hold up as well, and the off-gassing would always concern me.

 

[bhmmapping]

what did they use for the factory dampening? I really don't if the asphalt based dampeners are better or worse or if they might be dangerous, but a few years ago IIRC all soundproofing mats were asphalt based and no one worried about it. I am skeptical of all the websites that do the comparisons as they all seem to be attached to a particular brand of soundproofing.

It doesn't seem too farfetched to me that originally companies sold a rebadged version of these roofing products until someone figured out you could skip the middleman and get the same thing directly at the home improvement store. The companies then had to find something better that they could use to discredit the peal -n - seal type products. Reading a lot of those comparison websites you see a lot of "why would you use something intended for a house on your car" type comments. If it is the same product I am not concerned with the intended purpose if the cost is lower and the end result is the same.

 

[FirstToy]

what did they use for the factory dampening? I really don't if the asphalt based dampeners are better or worse or if they might be dangerous, but a few years ago IIRC all soundproofing mats were asphalt based and no one worried about it. I am skeptical of all the websites that do the comparisons as they all seem to be attached to a particular brand of soundproofing.

It doesn't seem too farfetched to me that originally companies sold a rebadged version of these roofing products until someone figured out you could skip the middleman and get the same thing directly at the home improvement store. The companies then had to find something better that they could use to discredit the peal -n - seal type products. Reading a lot of those comparison websites you see a lot of "why would you use something intended for a house on your car" type comments. If it is the same product I am not concerned with the intended purpose if the cost is lower and the end result is the same.

I agree that soundproofing material is astronomically priced and they are making decent profits off it.

I just don't know if Peel n seal is safe. Just asking the question. Asphalt is kind of nasty stuff.

All the soundproofing in the Cruiser seems to be that compressed carpet fluff material and stick on pieces of rubber in strategic locations (like on the rear wheelwell) to kill vibes and noise.

 

[Ebag333]

I really don't if the asphalt based dampeners are better or worse or if they might be dangerous, but a few years ago IIRC all soundproofing mats were asphalt based and no one worried about it. I am skeptical of all the websites that do the comparisons as they all seem to be attached to a particular brand of soundproofing.

Here's what my research turned up:
(From: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/318264-those-have-done-sound-deadening.html )

Reasons to use the roofing products:

• Cheap.

Reasons not to use the roofing products:

• High quality products are far more effecting (Dynamat and SecondSkin is probably at least twice as effective), meaning your cost savings is mostly eliminated.
• Lower quality products have a higher chance of failure.
• Asphalt based products are not designed for longevity. This is why houses are reroofed periodically. Roofs also see more moderate temps than the inside of a vehicle.
• Asphalt based products can smell. I've been in several vehicles where the person who did the install swore that it didn't smell...first time I sat in it I could tell right away. They were just used to it, just like someone who smokes inside their car.

But all those reasons are nothing compared to the biggest one:

What Are Asphalt Fumes?
When asphalt is heated, a small portion of it is released as a
vapor. As these vapors cool in the air, some of them condense
into a cloud of tiny droplets called “fume”. Not every compound
that is part of the asphalt becomes part of the fume that is
created when asphalt is heated. Quite the opposite – only the
chemicals that are more volatile (i.e., are more readily turned into
vapors) become part of the fume. It has been estimated that only
about 0.0001 % (one-ten thousandths of one percent) of the
base asphalt evolves into fume under normal operating conditions.

(Emphasis mine.)
When you install Asphalt based roofing products in a vehicle, it is no longer under normal operating conditions.
A Harvard study showed that temps could reach over 150* with an ambient temp of only 100*. Another study showed that temps can reach nearly 170*, I've heard reports of people reaching around 200*.
Roofs are not exposed to those temps. They are only going to be slightly hotter than ambient, and the cool house below will act as a giant heatsink. You are exposing your asphalt sound dampening to nearly twice the heat it was designed for.
The more heat, the more asphalt vapor in the air. The more vapor, the more you inhale.
OSHA reports the following possible effects of Asphalt fumes:

Health effects from exposure to asphalt fumes include headache, skin rash, sensitization, fatigue, reduced appetite, throat and eye irritation, cough, and skin cancer.

So not only are you subjecting the asphalt to extreme heat (which can not only cause it to fail but will cause more fumes to be in the air), but you're doing so in an enclosed and essentially air tight space (at least when the vehicle isn't running or you have recirc on).

There's no good reason to use a asphalt based product as a sound dampener. It won't work as well, you'll need more of it to achieve the same effect (meaning your cost savings are negligible at best), and it might kill you.
And even if you don't care about the effects on you, think about the effects on others. How about those of us with kids or friends of have kids? How about a newborn?

It doesn't seem too farfetched to me that originally companies sold a rebadged version of these roofing products until someone figured out you could skip the middleman and get the same thing directly at the home improvement store. The companies then had to find something better that they could use to discredit the peal -n - seal type products. Reading a lot of those comparison websites you see a lot of "why would you use something intended for a house on your car" type comments. If it is the same product I am not concerned with the intended purpose if the cost is lower and the end result is the same.

Back when all the products were asphalt based I don't think there was a lot of difference between them, truth be told.

But the butyl products today are very different than the asphalt based products from a few years ago.

For one, the butyl based products are much heavier than their Home Depot asphalt "counterparts." I've had both in my hand and there's no comparison. The heavier material means better sound dampening. Since the butyl products are as much as twice the weight (and up to twice the sound dampening), that means you need to use twice the peel and seal to acheive the same effect.

Lets say you buy some Peel & Seal. That's 32 lbs of the stuff, for $99.99. An equal weight of Second Skin Damplifier (at .65 lbs per square foot) gives you just under 50 square feet. Second Skin offers 40 square feet for $98.98.

Now, which would you rather purchase, a product that has lots of controversy and a history of failure, or a product that's only slightly more expensive but has no controversy or failure behind it?

What's the justification from using an asphalt based material? Generally it's price. But the math doesn't work out that way as I picked the most expensive "standard" sound dampening material on the market, and the prices were comparable. (Peel & Seal: $3.12/lb vs Second Skin Damplifier: $3.81/lb (@40 square feet))

 

[turbocruiser]

Cool thread. For those interested in it, Lowes sells something called tite-seal hurricane tape which I believe is butyl based. It is pretty thick and pretty sticky stuff. HTH.

 

[firetruck41]

There is butyl based ice shield/flashing material available now at home depot, so you can even get non-asphalt material there now. It is in the duct tape section, read carefully to find several butyl options. No I haven't used any yet.

 

[lndcruz]

^ are these last two better options?

 

[Ebag333]

Cool thread. For those interested in it, Lowes sells something called tite-seal hurricane tape which I believe is butyl based. It is pretty thick and pretty sticky stuff. HTH.

There is butyl based ice shield/flashing material available now at home depot, so you can even get non-asphalt material there now. It is in the duct tape section, read carefully to find several butyl options. No I haven't used any yet.

^ are these last two better options?

Better than asphalt? Absolutely. Better than a purpose designed sound dampener? Not likely.

The Butyl based tape that I can find online is not pure Butyl but is a hybrid, it still contains some asphalt. It also specifically says it can only be left exposed for up to 120 days, which brings to mind questions about what happens then. My guess is that it will dry out and may no longer stick (the asphalt based products are well known to fail in this manner).

The tape is $56.45 for 100 square feet which sounds great, until you figure that you will need to double it up to acheive the same effect as the purpose designed sound dampener. So your cost savings is gone.


TBH I don't understand the fascination with these cheaper products. They are (at best) going to be 80%-90% the cost of equivelent sound dampening material, and you are running into all sorts of health and failure risks. Even if only one chunk of the material fails and needs to be replaced, your cost savings are gone. These roofing products are not designed to be in an enclosed space. They are not designed to be sound dampeners. They are designed for roofing, keep them there.

 

[yoopercharged]

I've also read reports of the adhesives failing on the roofing products which makes a huge mess of your interior. Even the original Dynamat had this issue. I would not want asphalt melting into my interior. I purchased an 80 because I like to do things right the first time. If I wanted to half ass things, I'd buy a Jeep and put peel and seal in it.

 

[firetruck41]

Better than asphalt? Absolutely. Better than a purpose designed sound dampener? Not likely.

The Butyl based tape that I can find online is not pure Butyl but is a hybrid, it still contains some asphalt.

The one I saw, available at Home Depot, has no mention of asphalt on the data sheet or MSDS. Also, no mention of a health hazard in the MSDS, Health rating of 0.
Grace Vycor Butyl datasheet
Grace Vycor Butyl MSDS

It also specifically says it can only be left exposed for up to 120 days, which brings to mind questions about what happens then. My guess is that it will dry out and may no longer stick (the asphalt based products are well known to fail in this manner).

My educated guess is that UV rays will start to break it down. It is not a matter of heat, as it is performance tested to 240F. Doesn't mean anything bad will happen at that temp, but that is what it is tested to. Since it will probably not be exposed to UV in the vehicle, it is a moot point, IMHO.

The tape is $56.45 for 100 square feet which sounds great, until you figure that you will need to double it up to acheive the same effect as the purpose designed sound dampener. So your cost savings is gone.

I don't remember it being that expensive, but I will take a look next time I am at Home Depot.

TBH I don't understand the fascination with these cheaper products. They are (at best) going to be 80%-90% the cost of equivelent sound dampening material, and you are running into all sorts of health and failure risks. Even if only one chunk of the material fails and needs to be replaced, your cost savings are gone. These roofing products are not designed to be in an enclosed space. They are not designed to be sound dampeners. They are designed for roofing, keep them there.

The fascination is that you might get performance similar to the "pro" products for a fraction of the price. Probably not worth it at 90% of the price or if there is a health hazard, but I think we have seen the health hazard is a moot point with a butyl product, and I am not convinced pricing is 80-90% of "pro" products. Besides, sometimes people like to do their own thing, like building a possibly unsafe, un-engineered major suspension component, when you could just buy one...

 

[UCBerzerkeley]

So what's up with this e-dead product? Did you end up using it how do you like it? My lunch break is over but this evening I will search to see if you posted anything up on the installation of this product.

i have some of the 45mil in my garage, but am still deciding between the 45mil and 80 mil (45mil is $1 / square foot versus $1.50 for the 80mil thickness). Over the next couple weeks, i am putting in 4 new window runs, deadening the doors and replacing all the locks (dont ask). Anyways, I'll post up pics then and a review shortly after.

for those not sure what we are talking about, e-dead is a product by elemental designs, another respected car audio company.

 

[turbocruiser]

The one I saw, available at Home Depot, has no mention of asphalt on the data sheet or MSDS. Also, no mention of a health hazard in the MSDS, Health rating of 0.
Grace Vycor Butyl datasheet
Grace Vycor Butyl MSDS



My educated guess is that UV rays will start to break it down. It is not a matter of heat, as it is performance tested to 240F. Doesn't mean anything bad will happen at that temp, but that is what it is tested to. Since it will probably not be exposed to UV in the vehicle, it is a moot point, IMHO.



I don't remember it being that expensive, but I will take a look next time I am at Home Depot.



The fascination is that you might get performance similar to the "pro" products for a fraction of the price. Probably not worth it at 90% of the price or if there is a health hazard, but I think we have seen the health hazard is a moot point with a butyl product, and I am not convinced pricing is 80-90% of "pro" products. Besides, sometimes people like to do their own thing, like building a possibly unsafe, un-engineered major suspension component, when you could just buy one...

Agree 100% with all the above points. BTW, I should state rather hypocritically that I have done dynamat in the past and that I'm not using any alternative product in my rig right now. So I wasn't "endorsing" the tite-seal for this particular application and I have not even ever used it for this particular application, I was just saying "for those interested in it ... here's a butyl based product." Sorry if I confused that with the post I posted.

 

[Ebag333]

like building a possibly unsafe, un-engineered major suspension component, when you could just buy one...

Actually, the problem is that I can't just buy one. And when I'm done it will absolutely be tested.




Back on topic, I agree that if it's a butyl product then the health risk is nil (at least now, give it a few years). Failure shouldn't be anywhere near the same, butyl holds up far better than asphalt does.

Whether it performs as well as a purpose designed sound dampener.....I still would question that, but I don't see any problem with using a butyl based product as a cheaper option.

 

[Marc311]

Health issues aside, I wouldn't use asphalt for fear of an annoying smell. Even if it didn't give me cancer, I wouldn't want to risk stinking up the car.

I'm also for cheaper alternatives. I am very happy with the Damplifier I have installed. I am equally convinced it is just a butyl adhesive with foil backing. We use butyl adhesives at work, in much smaller quantities, and I have recently been looking to purchase more. It is the same stuff they use in replacing many windshields (see Norton Glass-Grip or 3M Weatherban, etc). I am quite certain that stuff could be used with similar results as Dynamat/Damplifier/Etc.

BUT (and this is a big BUT, hehe):

1) The stuff is pretty expensive even in plain form
2) Finding it in a convenient form (i.e. sheets with foil backing) or making it into a convenient form may be difficult

So my point is, it may be tough to find an alternative where the cost savings and convenience is worth the switch. But I am by no means trying to dissuade anybody. I am quite certain Dynamat/Second Skin/etc do not make it themselves and buy from a butyl adhesive producer (3M, Norton, whoever). So buying a similar product direct from the producer would likely be cheaper. (I'm guessing Secondskin Spectrum might be 3M Body Schutz - the applicator guns look identical. Interestingly, buying from 3m is MORE expensive)

A problem with buying from 3M, the quantities they sell direct for their butyl adhesives where several hundred dollars minimum. But you may have luck searching for windshield adhesives, butyl ribbon, etc.

 

[thx138]

I have used this stuff in the past with great results.
Elemental Designs

 

[Ebag333]

I have used this stuff in the past with great results.
Elemental Designs

Not a bad price. I've seen the eDead stuff and it looks okay, but it's about half the weight/thickness of the Damplifier, meaning about half the effectiveness.

If someone wanted to do sound dampening on the cheap, that's going to be about the same price as the stuff from Home Depot.

(I'm guessing Secondskin Spectrum might be 3M Body Schutz - the applicator guns look identical. Interestingly, buying from 3m is MORE expensive)

I'm 99.9% sure it's not. The 3M stuff is more a rubbery bedliner type stuff. Spectrum is hard to describe, more a soft plastic than anything. They are also completely different colors (yeah, I know, that's not exactly a big deal).

I'm extremely impressed with Spectrum, I bought a gallon of it for the rig and the difference it made was amazing. I had enough to do both rear quarters, the tailgate, and all the doors except one, and I used a lot of the stuff.