Delta VS Radius Arms (3 Viewers)

[Delta VS]

View attachment 2583815View attachment 2583816
I made the move to 37s. Rides better than the 35s + 4.88s.

Without the Delta arms, I’d rub on the body on turns which would’ve been a deal breaker. Many fail to account for the fact that caster plates shorten your wheelbase.

So you do or don't think longer arms would be good with your 37s?

If long were available when I bought mine I would’ve chose them.

Why? Did you actually need to do some trimming even with the arms? Or did you trim before you got the arms? Just want to understand why exactly you'd have chosen longer ones.

I put on the 37’s before the Delta ams but wouldn’t see any issue with running 35’s with longer arms first. the issue is with the rear of the fender rubbing slightly. I’m betting my 37’s might clear with the 4” arms TBH. Stuffing may be another story. I talked to Dave this week also and discussed the thought of them bringing the longer 37” version to market as well. the key word is patient. I would say talk to Dave if your thinking about moving on a set. Im sure he would work somehting out with you. It certainly doesnt hurt to reply with intrest here as it will pressure them into bringing them to market a little lol. Im sure Dave will speak up on where they stand. Im another intrested without a doubt.

No need to "pressure"... we are working on plenty of other things that will be hitting the market in the near future and are actively working an "L" version into the production schedule. As @LUVMY804EVR says though, patience is a virtue. "wen eta" is not appreciated at this point, and will just hamper progress.

 

[Bludozer]

So you do or don't think longer arms would be good with your 37s?



Why? Did you actually need to do some trimming even with the arms? Or did you trim before you got the arms? Just want to understand why exactly you'd have chosen longer ones.



No need to "pressure"... we are working on plenty of other things that will be hitting the market in the near future and are actively working an "L" version into the production schedule. As @LUVMY804EVR says though, patience is a virtue. "wen eta" is not appreciated at this point, and will just hamper progress.

I mean thats great and all but wen eta?!?!?!?!11!11!oneone!!11!?? I have a trip I'm planning for September of '23 and I already have a perfectly working set of your regular length arms but I really need to replace these for no reason I'm just trying to be prepared I don't appreciate being kept in limbo do you even want my money??

 

[COYS]

My post had nothing to do with the call for longer arms. I am completely satisfied with the Delta arms on my truck as-is.

I’m definitely in for the Delta sliders so long as I can black out that step piece.

 

[Delta VS]

I mean thats great and all but wen eta?!?!?!?!11!11!oneone!!11!?? I have a trip I'm planning for September of '23 and I already have a perfectly working set of your regular length arms but I really need to replace these for no reason I'm just trying to be prepared I don't appreciate being kept in limbo do you even want my money??

the response I was looking for

 

[Delta VS]

My post had nothing to do with the call for longer arms. I am completely satisfied with the Delta arms on my truck as-is.

I’m definitely in for the Delta sliders so long as I can black out that step piece.

I hear you, I was just wondering if you felt longer arms would've been beneficial, since you actually have 37s mounted.

We don't have access in our general vicinity (the entire state) to chemical processes like stainless nitride type stuff unfortunately.

 

[COYS]

I hear you, I was just wondering if you felt longer arms would've been beneficial, since you actually have 37s mounted.

We don't have access in our general vicinity (the entire state) to chemical processes like stainless nitride type stuff unfortunately.

I had to cut about 1 inch of plastic on the factory bumper corners to minimize rubbing on turns while barely clearing the rear body so I think I threaded the needle here. I’m only lifted 2.5”-3” so I’m good for my needs.

I personally find the stainless step bits to be a bit of an eyesore set against the black sliders. I will sit on the sideline then until there’s a blacked out aesthetic I favor. Thanks.

 

[BILT4ME]

I had to cut about 1 inch of plastic on the factory bumper corners to minimize rubbing on turns while barely clearing the rear body so I think I threaded the needle here. I’m only lifted 2.5”-3” so I’m good for my needs.

I personally find the stainless step bits to be a bit of an eyesore set against the black sliders. I will sit on the sideline then until there’s a blacked out aesthetic I favor. Thanks.

Just an FYI, you can sand / abrade the SS surfaces, then coat with Sherwin Williams DTM Wash Primer (B71Y1), then coat that with SW Macropoxy 646 Fast-Cure Epoxy, then coat that with SW Acrolon 218 HS Polyurethane.

This is an extremely durable finish and can be had in a high gloss black (or flat black if desired) The Macropoxy can be the top coat and it is a semi-gloss black.

The key is the DTM Wash Primer to attach the other primers to it.
Try not to mix paint brands, as their chemicals may differ in their bonding abilities.

 

[Box Rocket]

I put on the 37’s before the Delta ams but wouldn’t see any issue with running 35’s with longer arms first. the issue is with the rear of the fender rubbing slightly. I’m betting my 37’s might clear with the 4” arms TBH. Stuffing may be another story. I talked to Dave this week also and discussed the thought of them bringing the longer 37” version to market as well. the key word is patient. I would say talk to Dave if your thinking about moving on a set. Im sure he would work somehting out with you. It certainly doesnt hurt to reply with intrest here as it will pressure them into bringing them to market a little lol. Im sure Dave will speak up on where they stand. Im another intrested without a doubt.

I’m responding to this comment, “ I’m betting my 37’s might clear with the 4” arms TBH. Stuffing may be another story”

The typical place that 37’s are going to rub in front is at the mud flap area of the front fender. Regardless of if you have stock arms or aftermarket, when the front wheel stuffs it’s going to travel in an arc that will push it farther away from the mud flap area. So to answer part of your question, the Delta arms being longer than stock will reduce or eliminate rubbing at the mudflap area.
The top of the wheel arch is a whole other story and will be dependent on lift height, bumpstop setup. With a 4” lift and a 2” bumpstop extension I still get some rubbing here at full bump.

The other thing you need to consider (particularly with a “L” version. I have no idea what the final specs will be from Dave on these so it might be a moot point) is the real possibility that you might get some rubbing at the front part of the fender when turning and/or under compression. I removed 2” from the front bumper wings and a decent portion of the inner fender below the battery tray area to eliminate rubbing in the front. That is with 1.25” relocation of the axle.

one thing I do know is that a Delta product will be thoroughly designed and tested and if there are any considerations, like need to trim some sheet metal, they’ll let you know.

 

[on the rocks]

I’m responding to this comment, “ I’m betting my 37’s might clear with the 4” arms TBH. Stuffing may be another story”

The typical place that 37’s are going to rub in front is at the mud flap area of the front fender. Regardless of if you have stock arms or aftermarket, when the front wheel stuffs it’s going to travel in an arc that will push it farther away from the mud flap area. So to answer part of your question, the Delta arms being longer than stock will reduce or eliminate rubbing at the mudflap area.
The top of the wheel arch is a whole other story and will be dependent on lift height, bumpstop setup. With a 4” lift and a 2” bumpstop extension I still get some rubbing here at full bump.

The other thing you need to consider (particularly with a “L” version. I have no idea what the final specs will be from Dave on these so it might be a moot point) is the real possibility that you might get some rubbing at the front part of the fender when turning and/or under compression. I removed 2” from the front bumper wings and a decent portion of the inner fender below the battery tray area to eliminate rubbing in the front. That is with 1.25” relocation of the axle.

one thing I do know is that a Delta product will be thoroughly designed and tested and if there are any considerations, like need to trim some sheet metal, they’ll let you know.

Understood, I probably wasn't completely clear, I just haven't had a chance to check the stuff quite yet and adjust accordingly is what I was getting at. Was surprised how well these wheel wells eat up that 37's, Better than I expected. I have a treat yourself/ Dobinson combo order with Dave @Delta VS I'm hoping to get wrapped up this week and will try the 4" arms are report back but seeing a few people mention the 4" arms clear ok is promising. So many variables. If I wasn't running the 10 rim with -38 offset I believe I would probably clear with my old SLEE arms, who knows on the OEM. If the Delta sliders are as good as they look and set back from the flare a bit I may go with them and hopefully I can run the standard 4" and avoid the front rub on compression and the rear run as well. Pulling the mud flap already helped.
Once I get the Delta 4" arms I will report back on clearance if it helps them for what it's worth but guessing not too many with the 10" rims and 13.5" tires.

​

EDIT* for what it's worth I would rather trim the fender slightly than the bumper if your running the Delta. Just my .02. First impression, it didn't seem like it was rubbing much and may just stuff better. I'll change my interest to TBD lol.

 

[cody c]

I measured 29" to the middle bolt hole so I can only assume from the picture below that Dave is going to the most forward bolt hole rather then where the center of the axle would be. That's a 36" ruler by the way.

When I look at these arms like that, I wonder if someone could move the frame bracket rearward, use the rear hole on the axle for the bushing at the front of the arm, and just build a third upper link...

And then use a coilover and attach it to the center bushing on the radius arm. I guess if it failed you'd be in serious trouble but you'd have a cantilever arm that would give you better travel.

edit, sorry for the hijack.

 

[Nay]

I'm super happy with my 315's, full Delta kit and Dobinson 3" but there are times I wonder if I should have gone 37's

I'm sure there's plenty of you out there thinking the same

Nobody is happy with 315s.

 

[Nay]

Ok I read through this whole thread, and like many things on Mud, it harmed me a little bit, but I still have a question. Because it’s finally time for 38’s (Patagonia MT, the modern and inexpensive Trxus).

First off, It seems we’ve resolved that caster can be altered by changing the position of the axle end bushings to rotate the steering knuckles, and that this is best done without restricting the motion of the tierod. I’m not sure that we’ve resolved that caster follows pinion angle and not the other way around, but people should probably understand that and measure their stuff accordingly (or reject the theory of u-joint angle phasing outright).

Second, this isn’t a critique of what @Delta VS has produced, because that seems well demonstrated to be exactly what it is. I run the rear panhard bracket, happily enough. It also is what it is.

Third, I have run 37’s with stock radius arms and proper pinion angle (with a DC driveshaft without u-joint vibration) at 4-5” of lift for a decade without any issues of front axle location, arc of travel, bracket limited flex, tierod contact, or body contact with Landtank caster plates (welded on, which is getting to my question). I have also graced my local recycling yard with both of my swaybars, and both the truck and garage are better for it.

I have no idea why there are comments in this thread that caster plates shorten your wheelbase or automatically do anything - what they do is going to be dictated by where the holes are drilled. Here’s a pic of my front end with Dobinsons 4” Flexi coils (closer to 5” lift) with 2” bump stop drops.

There is no coil to bump stop contact and the tire is centered in the wheel well so there is neither any firewall contact or front fender contact at any point of stuff or crank. This is with STT Pro, which are a squared off true to size 37 where I had to do additional rear trimming to get rid of contact I didn’t have with other 37’s.

This next pic shows the closest I could get the tierod to contact a beefier tierod, with a caveat: I got a bit too much pinion rotation with the plates and had vibration, so I installed a OME caster bushing in the rear position upside down to fix this, which then keeps the arm further away from the tierod. I’m adding 30mm of lift for the 38’s, so this needs to be reverted to a OEM bushing. At 5.5” of lift without the one flipped caster bushing, I may have tierod contact.

And the 38’s may just kiss the rear inner fender. The Patagonia is a rounded tire by design so they will tuck better, and I’m adding lift, but it’s going to be close.

So if I need a bit of forward axle shift, and I have pinion rotation and axle centering for a 4” lift already (welded on), but I can use adjustment for another 1.5” of lift with the Delta arms, how much do this final version of 0-2” adjust in pinion degrees? I think I can stay in spec (no vibration) on the DC driveshaft with up to 2.5°, but not any more. Although maybe I could keep my flipped caster bushing in service if needed as that works like a charm and is nice and flexy.

What say you @Delta VS ? (And thanks, actually a serious question that hasn’t been answered here and is pertinent to people pushing their builds).

 

[baldilocks]

Ok I read through this whole thread, and like many things on Mud, it harmed me a little bit, but I still have a question. Because it’s finally time for 38’s (Patagonia MT, the modern and inexpensive Trxus).

First off, It seems we’ve resolved that caster can be altered by changing the position of the axle end bushings to rotate the steering knuckles, and that this is best done without restricting the motion of the tierod. I’m not sure that we’ve resolved that caster follows pinion angle and not the other way around, but people should probably understand that and measure their stuff accordingly (or reject the theory of u-joint angle phasing outright).

Second, this isn’t a critique of what @Delta VS has produced, because that seems well demonstrated to be exactly what it is. I run the rear panhard bracket, happily enough. It also is what it is.

Third, I have run 37’s with stock radius arms and proper pinion angle (with a DC driveshaft without u-joint vibration) at 4-5” of lift for a decade without any issues of front axle location, arc of travel, bracket limited flex, tierod contact, or body contact with Landtank caster plates (welded on, which is getting to my question). I have also graced my local recycling yard with both of my swaybars, and both the truck and garage are better for it.

I have no idea why there are comments in this thread that caster plates shorten your wheelbase or automatically do anything - what they do is going to be dictated by where the holes are drilled. Here’s a pic of my front end with Dobinsons 4” Flexi coils (closer to 5” lift) with 2” bump stop drops.

View attachment 2608171

There is no coil to bump stop contact and the tire is centered in the wheel well so there is neither any firewall contact or front fender contact at any point of stuff or crank. This is with STT Pro, which are a squared off true to size 37 where I had to do additional rear trimming to get rid of contact I didn’t have with other 37’s.

This next pic shows the closest I could get the tierod to contact a beefier tierod, with a caveat: I got a bit too much pinion rotation with the plates and had vibration, so I installed a OME caster bushing in the rear position upside down to fix this, which then keeps the arm further away from the tierod. I’m adding 30mm of lift for the 38’s, so this needs to be reverted to a OEM bushing. At 5.5” of lift without the one flipped caster bushing, I may have tierod contact.

View attachment 2608172

And the 38’s may just kiss the rear inner fender. The Patagonia is a rounded tire by design so they will tuck better, and I’m adding lift, but it’s going to be close.

So if I need a bit of forward axle shift, and I have pinion rotation and axle centering for a 4” lift already (welded on), but I can use adjustment for another 1.5” of lift with the Delta arms, how much do this final version of 0-2” adjust in pinion degrees? I think I can stay in spec (no vibration) on the DC driveshaft with up to 2.5°, but not any more. Although maybe I could keep my flipped caster bushing in service if needed as that works like a charm and is nice and flexy.

View attachment 2608173

What say you @Delta VS ? (And thanks, actually a serious question that hasn’t been answered here and is pertinent to people pushing their builds).

Some deep thinking here and a lot for the reader to process and keep organized as progress is made through the post.

I know that LT castor plates work differently than Slee and others out there. With Slee plates and 5”-5.5” lift, I had only .5* of positive castor but the DC shaft was still pretty happy. My tie rod and the arms kissed every time I went wheeling as yours will unless you reduce castor angle again with that offset bushing. 5” lift is outside the window for “good” castor angle paired with good pinion position for any type of front driveline. Moving the axle forward does relieve anglesomewhat but you’d need to move it so much that extensive sheet metal modifications would need to done at the forward end of wheel well for stuffed tire clearance.

I can tell you that a set of 6” delta arms on a 5” lift will move the axle forward about .5” and dial castor up to the high end of spec if not more like 5* which I don’t think is a bad thing with a 5” lift and large tires. This is my exact set up and it drives very well compared to before delta arms. My pinion is now lower than before and not great for either style driveline, although, the DC is better and will run smoothly up 45mph, or so, if I leave the manual hubs locked and apply torque to the front axle.

The Patagonia tire is the modern trXus? It’s cheap for a reason. If you don’t mind cheap tires from over sea’s why not go with the 39x12.5 Kanati mud hog M/T?

 

[Delta VS]

1. I’m not sure that we’ve resolved that caster follows pinion angle and not the other way around, but people should probably understand that and measure their stuff accordingly (or reject the theory of u-joint angle phasing outright).

2. So if I need a bit of forward axle shift, and I have pinion rotation and axle centering for a 4” lift already (welded on), but I can use adjustment for another 1.5” of lift with the Delta arms, how much do this final version of 0-2” adjust in pinion degrees?

I edited the quoted text down to the two things I can comment on:

1. Not sure I follow this statement. There is no doubt whatsoever that pinion angle and caster are completely tied together and move together, unless you either:

a. use eccentric trunnion bearings​

b. do a cut and turn​

2. I'm sorry, but I don't understand this question. Are you asking about the 2" arms? If so, they rotate the axle back ~4.5*. This means they will rotate the pinion back 4.5* as well.

 

[GW Nugget]

Hello all, fun confo going on.
I dont want to muck up this great thread on how to fit 37s or even 38s, but a I believe I can add value for the reason moving the axle more forward then just centering it while on a 4" lift. @ .25" or .42" for 6" of lift.
I cut my front fender years back thinking it was necessary to run 37s with less than 3" of lift now Im thinking it can be done by moving the tires forward a wee bit with out major cutting.
Most people are not willing to cut to fit 37s & my thoughts are to help people after me fit 37s without cutting with decent amount of up travel.
My suggestion is .75" to 1" yes this is a game were every .25" makes a big difference.
I recommend 1".
I have ran 37s from 1" of lift up to 4" of lift with 3" front bump stops down to stock bumps.
I can go on & on about this if anyone wants to talk off line or if Dave thinks its okay to talk pros & cons about here.

 

[Nay]

I edited the quoted text down to the two things I can comment on:

1. Not sure I follow this statement. There is no doubt whatsoever that pinion angle and caster are completely tied together and move together, unless you either:

a. use eccentric trunnion bearings​

b. do a cut and turn​

2. I'm sorry, but I don't understand this question. Are you asking about the 2" arms? If so, they rotate the axle back ~4.5*. This means they will rotate the pinion back 4.5* as well.

I was commenting generally about people choosing caster independent of pinion angle and expecting to not have front driveline vibes, unless you go part time 4wd with lockout hubs (as @baldilocks notes only running smooth to 45 mph). One would want to know this, because driveline vibes are monstrously more problematic than low range spec caster.

Thanks for the info in the 2” arms, that would over correct for me.

Good news is the 38’s fit from an axle location perspective with my caster plates and stock arms, so no issues there for me. I probably will leave lift height alone so as not to drop caster values at all.

 

[Nay]

Hello all, fun confo going on.
I dont want to muck up this great thread on how to fit 37s or even 38s, but a I believe I can add value for the reason moving the axle more forward then just centering it while on a 4" lift. @ .25" or .42" for 6" of lift.
I cut my front fender years back thinking it was necessary to run 37s with less than 3" of lift now Im thinking it can be done by moving the tires forward a wee bit with out major cutting.
Most people are not willing to cut to fit 37s & my thoughts are to help people after me fit 37s without cutting with decent amount of up travel.
My suggestion is .75" to 1" yes this is a game were every .25" makes a big difference.
I recommend 1".
I have ran 37s from 1" of lift up to 4" of lift with 3" front bump stops down to stock bumps.
I can go on & on about this if anyone wants to talk off line or if Dave thinks its okay to talk pros & cons about here.

I think we can talk tire size without permission - it’s the part of the point around designing for lift and tires and is a major selling point of these arms (or properly designed caster plates).

I don’t know that we need to go much beyond “move your axle forward with lift, always”, but we do need to note that this can be done with arms or caster plates, the latter just becoming a modified axle mount bracket, the former modifying the arm itself.

 

[Nay]

Some deep thinking here and a lot for the reader to process and keep organized as progress is made through the post.

I know that LT castor plates work differently than Slee and others out there. With Slee plates and 5”-5.5” lift, I had only .5* of positive castor but the DC shaft was still pretty happy. My tie rod and the arms kissed every time I went wheeling as yours will unless you reduce castor angle again with that offset bushing. 5” lift is outside the window for “good” castor angle paired with good pinion position for any type of front driveline. Moving the axle forward does relieve anglesomewhat but you’d need to move it so much that extensive sheet metal modifications would need to done at the forward end of wheel well for stuffed tire clearance.

I can tell you that a set of 6” delta arms on a 5” lift will move the axle forward about .5” and dial castor up to the high end of spec if not more like 5* which I don’t think is a bad thing with a 5” lift and large tires. This is my exact set up and it drives very well compared to before delta arms. My pinion is now lower than before and not great for either style driveline, although, the DC is better and will run smoothly up 45mph, or so, if I leave the manual hubs locked and apply torque to the front axle.

The Patagonia tire is the modern trXus? It’s cheap for a reason. If you don’t mind cheap tires from over sea’s why not go with the 39x12.5 Kanati mud hog M/T?

My single offset bushing was to reduce caster (too much pinion rotation from the plates creating driveline vibes), not increase it, so pulling it will increase my caster ~1.25°. It will also get close to tierod contact, but we can’t make statements that any caster plate will automatically create tierod contact - If you drop the mount point you get more clearance.

I totally get higher caster preference. I personally find radius arms to be a lot less sensitive than say a Jeep 4 link, but as we’ve discussed there’s “won’t drive in a straight line” bad and “vague”. I would not, under any circumstances, trade vague for driveline vibrations. Important stuff gets damaged when you do that, and proper pinion angle in an AWD system is critical.

You cannot just - and this bears repeating over and over - pick a preferred caster setting and have pinion angle follow on a solid axle truck where you need the front driveshaft engaged at highway speeds. Or you may find yourself spending a bunch of coin to make your truck part time 4wd with lockout hubs. That kind of coin is anything but “vague”. And you lose AWD.

Another thing to consider is that keeping stock axle mounts requires a lot of bend in the arm to clear the tierod - and it makes that the contact point as people are demonstrating with pics. This may not be relevant to many, but it is a design reality and reality always bats last.

I’m thinking that if I pull my offset bushing and have tierod contact that’s more than grinding the surface lip, I might just drill out the knuckle tapers and use a heim end tierod where I can set the height to whatever I want. Yes, nuns will die, but everything has a cost.

As for the Patagonia, first impressions are outstanding. We’ll talk about why you are buying them next on another thread.

 

[Delta VS]

I was commenting generally about people choosing caster independent of pinion angle and expecting to not have front driveline vibes, unless you go part time 4wd with lockout hubs (as @baldilocks notes only running smooth to 45 mph). One would want to know this, because driveline vibes are monstrously more problematic than low range spec caster.

Thanks for the info in the 2” arms, that would over correct for me.

Good news is the 38’s fit from an axle location perspective with my caster plates and stock arms, so no issues there for me. I probably will leave lift height alone so as not to drop caster values at all.

View attachment 2609840View attachment 2609842View attachment 2609843

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification, makes much more sense now.

 

[baldilocks]

My single offset bushing was to reduce caster (too much pinion rotation from the plates creating driveline vibes), not increase it, so pulling it will increase my caster ~1.25°. It will also get close to tierod contact, but we can’t make statements that any caster plate will automatically create tierod contact - If you drop the mount point you get more clearance.

I totally get higher caster preference. I personally find radius arms to be a lot less sensitive than say a Jeep 4 link, but as we’ve discussed there’s “won’t drive in a straight line” bad and “vague”. I would not, under any circumstances, trade vague for driveline vibrations. Important stuff gets damaged when you do that, and proper pinion angle in an AWD system is critical.

You cannot just - and this bears repeating over and over - pick a preferred caster setting and have pinion angle follow on a solid axle truck where you need the front driveshaft engaged at highway speeds. Or you may find yourself spending a bunch of coin to make your truck part time 4wd with lockout hubs. That kind of coin is anything but “vague”. And you lose AWD.

Another thing to consider is that keeping stock axle mounts requires a lot of bend in the arm to clear the tierod - and it makes that the contact point as people are demonstrating with pics. This may not be relevant to many, but it is a design reality and reality always bats last.

I’m thinking that if I pull my offset bushing and have tierod contact that’s more than grinding the surface lip, I might just drill out the knuckle tapers and use a heim end tierod where I can set the height to whatever I want. Yes, nuns will die, but everything has a cost.

As for the Patagonia, first impressions are outstanding. We’ll talk about why you are buying them next on another thread.

“For a few dollars more” part time takes vibration concerns out of the equation. I enjoy better handling and zero vibes. I got tired of white knuckle events with low castor numbers. There are those who claim they need AWD to make it to the ski slopes. If you need power to the front tires in order to make it to the ski slope then chances are very good that you also can’t drive above 45mph safely on that road anyway. Please provide us with some feedback on those tires.