Cybertruck or 200 Series Land Cruiser?

[coleAK]

It is certainly the certainly the case for most EV flips. Maybe it's just better in your area, and it could be the people you know, but there are virtually no real charging stations near me and if you can't charge at home then that's a huge issue. Road trips in florida are also extremely hard with electric due to the lack of chargers.

I’m in Alaska. Some of the worst climate and charging infrastructure in the US for EVs.

I’ve always said if you can charge at home or work an EV isn’t a good option.

Florida seems to have Tesla SCs almost everywhere on the highway system according to the Tesla map?

 

[TeCKis300]

The resale value thing is exactly why I bought a used Chevy bolt and not a Tesla or other EV. I paid $17000 for a 2018 with 20k miles and brand new battery from the recall. An equivalent year and mile ICE car is going to be in that same ballpark. Even if it was only worth $5000 in 5 years, which I doubt, I still have saved a massive amount of money compared to an ICE. I could almost consider it disposable and still come out ahead, no ICE car could have made that math work. From a pure monetary standpoint, its hard to argue with the value of a used Bolt or Leaf.

I know we lump EVs together. And sounds like you made out pretty well on value for money on the Bolt.

Bit of a tangent and counterpoint as this is a Tesla thread.

Personally, any other EV is half baked in my mind. That they are irrelevant as soon as they're released contributing to the broader EV resale issue which is different to the Tesla manipulated resale issue. To buy any EV without the charging network prior is a big example of that (albeit that may change in the future).

Non-Tesla owners don't appreciate how much evolved Tesla's are against legacy cars, including legacy EVs. It's not just the electric drivetrain. Everything else has been re-thought. It's such a departure in terms of performance, safety, ease of use, Autopilot, FSD, blah blah.

Most are not even close to the same league of vehicle which is why Tesla stands alone today. The Cybertruck only further exemplifies this.

 

[Heckraiser]

My FSD tried to kill me twice last month But yeah, it's hard to compare a Tesla to any other EV. Apples/kumquats. Not saying the Tesla is "best", but the differences are stark. Tesla definitely has the best range/dollar of anything out there by a good margin, and a more versatile overall vehicle with supercharger network. Also a lot more used options due to their length of time on the market and large number of vehicles out there. But all that is changing as others adopt the supercharger network. Pretty soon they'll be too crowded to be any use to anyone. All the early Model S owners who got free supercharging for life are going to have to figure out the crowds.

FWIW, I really liked my Chevy too.

 

[skrypj]

I know we lump EVs together. And sounds like you made out pretty well on value for money on the Bolt.

Bit of a tangent and counterpoint as this is a Tesla thread.

Personally, any other EV is half baked in my mind. That they are irrelevant as soon as they're released contributing to the broader EV resale issue which is different to the Tesla manipulated resale issue. To buy any EV without the charging network prior is a big example of that (albeit that may change in the future).

Non-Tesla owners don't appreciate how much evolved Tesla's are against legacy cars, including legacy EVs. It's not just the electric drivetrain. Everything else has been re-thought. It's such a departure in terms of performance, safety, ease of use, Autopilot, FSD, blah blah.

Most are not even close to the same league of vehicle which is why Tesla stands alone today. The Cybertruck only further exemplifies this.

All the videos I've been watching this week suggest just the opposite, the Cybertruck is half-baked and we are the beta testers. And that has largely been true of Telsa for a long time. The Legacy auto companies tend to vet out the technology more before they release it to the wider public but the products they release are pretty well sorted.

I gotta say, after watching videos of the CT and the Hummer SUV this week, if I was dropping 100k on an EV truck right now, it would be the hummer. The hummer is a very good truck on or offroad and they really dialed it in. Plus its got that massive battery pack that will make it a bit more functional towing or offroading. It just seems like a vastly better build vehicle.

 

[Valgrind]

I’m in Alaska. Some of the worst climate and charging infrastructure in the US for EVs.

I’ve always said if you can charge at home or work an EV isn’t a good option.

Florida seems to have Tesla SCs almost everywhere on the highway system according to the Tesla map?

I looked into doing a road trip with a rental Polestar, and the stops I would have had to make were super out of the way and didn't leave much room for errors if the range was less than expected.
Admittedly they don't use tesla chargers.

 

[coleAK]

I know we lump EVs together. And sounds like you made out pretty well on value for money on the Bolt.

Bit of a tangent and counterpoint as this is a Tesla thread.

Personally, any other EV is half baked in my mind. That they are irrelevant as soon as they're released contributing to the broader EV resale issue which is different to the Tesla manipulated resale issue. To buy any EV without the charging network prior is a big example of that (albeit that may change in the future).

Non-Tesla owners don't appreciate how much evolved Tesla's are against legacy cars, including legacy EVs. It's not just the electric drivetrain. Everything else has been re-thought. It's such a departure in terms of performance, safety, ease of use, Autopilot, FSD, blah blah.

Most are not even close to the same league of vehicle which is why Tesla stands alone today. The Cybertruck only further exemplifies this.

I have to disagree. My model S was it in 2014 when I bought it, it was special because it was electric. When I switched to the model 3 in 2018 I said there is no way I would have bought the S if the 3 had been available, the 3 made the S obsolete (well excluding plad). Today I’ll say the same thing about my 3. The 3 was amazing in 2018 when there was no competition. The only things that made my Teslas special when I bought them is they were the only option on the market.

I have friends with BMW XI, polestars, Rivians, a Lucid, machE, EQ, IQ, lightning, and a buddy that just got a lyriq. All have better software and UI.

If I were in the market for a S I’d take a lucid or MBEQ all day over an S.

If my 3 gets totaled no way I would buy another model 3, I’d probably go with a BMW, Subaru, polestar, lyriq or Bolt (that can be found used for $20k). I’m even tossing around getting rid of the LX and 3 getting a used bolt and silverado EV.

As for the CT, you can almost buy 2 lightning’s for one CT, with the same range, much nicer fit and finish, inferior, huge frunk, 2 way power, and a real usable bed. You could definitely get a bolt and a lighting for less than the CT.

I’ve driven a CT, lightning, and Rivian. I put the CT last. Less range then the Rivian, less practical then the F150, way more expensive then both. Way less weirdness (doors, bed, drink,…) then the others. When the Silverado EV hits the market in large numbers the CT will fall to 4th.

My perspective in 10 years now of daily driving Tesla. Their drivetrain is awesome. Reliability is amazing. Their software is average at best. I feel like I’m always a beta tester when they do a new OS release. Some of the updates make things better (like they finally fixed auto wipers), some make things worse (the one before the newest screen layout sucked). New releases are always buggy. Their cosmetic fit and finish is mediocre at best.

 

[Valgrind]

I have to disagree. My model S was it in 2014 when I bought it, it was special because it was electric. When I switched to the model 3 in 2018 I said there is no way I would have bought the S if the 3 had been available, the 3 made the S obsolete (well excluding plad). Today I’ll say the same thing about my 3. The 3 was amazing in 2018 when there was no competition. The only things that made my Teslas special when I bought them is they were the only option on the market.

I have friends with BMW XI, polestars, Rivians, a Lucid, machE, EQ, IQ, lightning, and a buddy that just got a lyriq. All have better software and UI.

If I were in the market for a S I’d take a lucid or MBEQ all day over an S.

If my 3 gets totaled no way I would buy another model 3, I’d probably go with a BMW, Subaru, polestar, lyriq or Bolt (that can be found used for $20k). I’m even tossing around getting rid of the LX and 3 getting a used bolt and silverado EV.

As for the CT, you can almost buy 2 lightning’s for one CT, with the same range, much nicer fit and finish, inferior, huge frunk, 2 way power, and a real usable bed. You could definitely get a bolt and a lighting for less than the CT.

I’ve driven a CT, lightning, and Rivian. I put the CT last. Less range then the Rivian, less practical then the F150, way more expensive then both. Way less weirdness (doors, bed, drink,…) then the others. When the Silverado EV hits the market in large numbers the CT will fall to 4th.

My perspective in 10 years now of daily driving Tesla. Their drivetrain is awesome. Reliability is amazing. Their software is average at best. I feel like I’m always a beta tester when they do a new OS release. Some of the updates make things better (like they finally fixed auto wipers), some make things worse (the one before the newest screen layout sucked). New releases are always buggy. Their cosmetic fit and finish is mediocre at best.

Side note, is your garage heated? How have the winters been with the ev?

 

[coleAK]

Side note, is your garage heated? How have the winters been with the ev?

Garage is heated (and I have charging) at my house but not at my cabin (outside no charging hook up) where I am 2-5 days a week all Winter.

10 Alaska winters with an EV and no issues. I do use more electricity from running the heat. And the efficiency flips from summer. In the summer more efficient around town (I can get 20% more then rated range) and less effecient on the highway. In the winter highway is more efficient then in town as the heat runs longer per mile at lower speeds. Overall I have a 30% increase in wh/mi during the “winter” October to May.

Also my EVs are not as warm and toasty feeling inside, I mostly blame Tesla glass roofs (no insulation). But it doesn’t bother me much as not like I’m driving around in shorts, tee, and flip flops at -30F.

Worst day of the winter, 6”+ of fresh unplowed loose snow with temps <0F, is a 50% range reduction. On the same day at 8-9 mpg in the LX.

 

[skrypj]

Garage is heated (and I have charging) at my house but not at my cabin (outside no charging hook up) where I am 2-5 days a week all Winter.

10 Alaska winters with an EV and no issues. I do use more electricity from running the heat. And the efficiency flips from summer. In the summer more efficient around town (I can get 20% more then rated range) and less effecient on the highway. In the winter highway is more efficient then in town as the heat runs longer per mile at lower speeds. Overall I have a 30% increase in wh/mi during the “winter” October to May.

Also my EVs are not as warm and toasty feeling inside, I mostly blame Tesla glass roofs (no insulation). But it doesn’t bother me much as not like I’m driving around in shorts, tee, and flip flops at -30F.

Worst day of the winter, 6”+ of fresh unplowed loose snow with temps <0F, is a 50% range reduction. On the same day at 8-9 mpg in the LX.

I've noticed my Bolt is extremely lazy with the HVAC in the winter if its set below 70F. If you have it set to 68F it feels frigid in there. Set it it 72F and its like a switch flips and it aggressively heats the cabin

 

[TeCKis300]

All the videos I've been watching this week suggest just the opposite, the Cybertruck is half-baked and we are the beta testers. And that has largely been true of Telsa for a long time. The Legacy auto companies tend to vet out the technology more before they release it to the wider public but the products they release are pretty well sorted.

I gotta say, after watching videos of the CT and the Hummer SUV this week, if I was dropping 100k on an EV truck right now, it would be the hummer. The hummer is a very good truck on or offroad and they really dialed it in. Plus its got that massive battery pack that will make it a bit more functional towing or offroading. It just seems like a vastly better build vehicle.

Point taken and I'm not defending that. Yet it's the nature of being on the bleeding edge in most every domain, and takes an early adopter mentality to want to deal with or enjoy. Legacy manufacturers can play it safe and have rested on their laurels for decades. They're also now getting their lunch eaten. By more than just Tesla.

It's also analogous to buying a second or third tier cell phone - the way it is delivered is all the potential it will ever have, immediately getting worse with age. It's not at the level of top tier smartphone leaders that will provide regular updates that mature and even evolve the device to a level beyond what initial capabilities are.

Hummer was and still is a joke. Throwing more at something, to be a freedom tank, while selling for a loss is not innovation. Vastly better is likely not the way most would describe this monstrosity and its sales number will reflect that.

I have to disagree. My model S was it in 2014 when I bought it, it was special because it was electric. When I switched to the model 3 in 2018 I said there is no way I would have bought the S if the 3 had been available, the 3 made the S obsolete (well excluding plad). Today I’ll say the same thing about my 3. The 3 was amazing in 2018 when there was no competition. The only things that made my Teslas special when I bought them is they were the only option on the market.

I have friends with BMW XI, polestars, Rivians, a Lucid, machE, EQ, IQ, lightning, and a buddy that just got a lyriq. All have better software and UI.

If I were in the market for a S I’d take a lucid or MBEQ all day over an S.

If my 3 gets totaled no way I would buy another model 3, I’d probably go with a BMW, Subaru, polestar, lyriq or Bolt (that can be found used for $20k). I’m even tossing around getting rid of the LX and 3 getting a used bolt and silverado EV.

As for the CT, you can almost buy 2 lightning’s for one CT, with the same range, much nicer fit and finish, inferior, huge frunk, 2 way power, and a real usable bed. You could definitely get a bolt and a lighting for less than the CT.

I’ve driven a CT, lightning, and Rivian. I put the CT last. Less range then the Rivian, less practical then the F150, way more expensive then both. Way less weirdness (doors, bed, drink,…) then the others. When the Silverado EV hits the market in large numbers the CT will fall to 4th.

My perspective in 10 years now of daily driving Tesla. Their drivetrain is awesome. Reliability is amazing. Their software is average at best. I feel like I’m always a beta tester when they do a new OS release. Some of the updates make things better (like they finally fixed auto wipers), some make things worse (the one before the newest screen layout sucked). New releases are always buggy. Their cosmetic fit and finish is mediocre at best.

That your later Tesla's were better than your early Tesla's? That's shouldn't be a surprise?

I have also been an avid EV owner and driver. Dabbled with friends EVs, and done multi-day rentals of a few brands. All have better software and UIs is arguable, as nothing in my experience has even come close when talking about the breadth and state of Tesla SW. Again here, their technology stack is on another level that enables them to be at this turning point of AI/ML robo taxis. Autopilot and FSD aren't just simple cruise control but is underpinned by that same evolving AI/ML technology. Lucid and Rivian are still in their infancy developing capability with old procedural SW, with comparably tiny teams and budgets. (Maybe Apple will get in on the show). Tesla maybe outwardly a car company, but fact is they're also famously a world class SW company.

If anything, I think the CT has perhaps pushed the state of the art too far for most of our generation. Won't matter as the younger generations will define the future players. Few will tell you they aspire to any of the legacy brands their moms and dads loved. Maybe except for Toyota's?

 

[xeuxaz]

That is the demo of 85% of USDM 200 series owners... even with their 35s and dissent bumpers and ARB snorkels

 

[bloc]

A supposed “AI company” that breaks auto wipers then can’t fix them again doesn’t seem like it’ll be in the robotaxi game any time soon.

 

[lx200inAR]

The most recent Hoovie's Garage episode had a small teardown of the frunk area of the CT and the windshield wiper fluid from the wiper exits was draining into the area behind the frunk. They didn't do a lot of investigation, but definitely brings up the question of what happens when it rains. There was also a bolt that wasn't bolted down all the way when they were taking it apart. They suspected it was strippped going in and locked down about a quarter inch before seating on the washer properly. Also, there were terminated wires not bolted to anything shoved into a body panel. And the mechanic went to remove what they thought was the cabin filter and broke all the tabs as soon as they touched them. Admittedly, they may have been doing something wrong.

It's an impressive number of issues, considering it's the only part they took apart. I suspect it's possible they sabotaged it for clicks...but who knows.

 

[greynolds]

The most recent Hoovie's Garage episode had a small teardown of the frunk area of the CT and the windshield wiper fluid from the wiper exits was draining into the area behind the frunk. They didn't do a lot of investigation, but definitely brings up the question of what happens when it rains. There was also a bolt that wasn't bolted down all the way when they were taking it apart. They suspected it was strippped going in and locked down about a quarter inch before seating on the washer properly. Also, there were terminated wires not bolted to anything shoved into a body panel. And teh mechanic went to remove what they thought was the cabin filter and broke all the tabs as soon as they touched them. Admittedly, they may have been doing something wrong.

It's an impressive number of issues, considering it's the only part they took apart.

Yeah, perhaps they shouldn't have messed with what they thought was the cabin filter, but at the same time those tabs were WAY too fragile as it didn't look like Dave (Car Wizard) subjected them to much force at all. The general sloppy assembly from a company that has now been around for a while just isn't acceptable. Those assembly issues wouldn't be acceptable on a $30K car, never mind a $100K car.

 

[Broski]

Tesla has so many unsold cars that it's storing them in an an abandoned mall parking lot

Elon Musk's EV maker is renting parking lots to store thousands of vehicles

qz.com

Looks like Tesla not doing so well

CT drivers seem to be A** Hats.

 

[Valgrind]

Agree! I'm trying to assess the CT in its utility merits, where I think it does come short. It's in the suburban use cases where the CT really shines, destroying the mainstream trucks.

The steering and turning radius is beyond compare for. I guess that could be said about speed. And efficiency. And comfort. And blah blah...

The steering where people have had stopped working on the highway? lol.
Steer by wire is a horrendous idea, especially with a company with such a poor reputation for quality.

 

[TeCKis300]

The steering where people have had stopped working on the highway? lol.
Steer by wire is a horrendous idea, especially with a company with such a poor reputation for quality.

Change is hard...

Brake by wire might sound crazy too? Look under your 200-series

 

[Valgrind]

Change is hard...

Brake by wire might sound crazy too? Look under your 200-series

Well it would be one thing if it worked... but there are less than 5k CTs on the road and there have been way too many failures that have been posted on social media... let alone the ones that were not posted.

 

[Adrenaline6]

Change is hard...

Brake by wire might sound crazy too? Look under your 200-series

Your right about that, but to be fair, just the rear which doesn't do as much of the braking.

Also, I haven't looked into it deeply, but I am thinking the CT braking is probably more digital, while the rear brakes of the 200 is done with electronic hardware but still mostly analog. There is a big gap of control and intrusiveness there. I'm not against the technology, more the security and vulnerability of a system like that.

 

[skrypj]

Point taken and I'm not defending that. Yet it's the nature of being on the bleeding edge in most every domain, and takes an early adopter mentality to want to deal with or enjoy. Legacy manufacturers can play it safe and have rested on their laurels for decades. They're also now getting their lunch eaten. By more than just Tesla.

It's also analogous to buying a second or third tier cell phone - the way it is delivered is all the potential it will ever have, immediately getting worse with age. It's not at the level of top tier smartphone leaders that will provide regular updates that mature and even evolve the device to a level beyond what initial capabilities are.

Hummer was and still is a joke. Throwing more at something, to be a freedom tank, while selling for a loss is not innovation. Vastly better is likely not the way most would describe this monstrosity and its sales number will reflect that.



That your later Tesla's were better than your early Tesla's? That's shouldn't be a surprise?

I have also been an avid EV owner and driver. Dabbled with friends EVs, and done multi-day rentals of a few brands. All have better software and UIs is arguable, as nothing in my experience has even come close when talking about the breadth and state of Tesla SW. Again here, their technology stack is on another level that enables them to be at this turning point of AI/ML robo taxis. Autopilot and FSD aren't just simple cruise control but is underpinned by that same evolving AI/ML technology. Lucid and Rivian are still in their infancy developing capability with old procedural SW, with comparably tiny teams and budgets. (Maybe Apple will get in on the show). Tesla maybe outwardly a car company, but fact is they're also famously a world class SW company.

If anything, I think the CT has perhaps pushed the state of the art too far for most of our generation. Won't matter as the younger generations will define the future players. Few will tell you they aspire to any of the legacy brands their moms and dads loved. Maybe except for Toyota's?

I agree that the Hummer is kind of a heinous vehicle. but:

Real world the Hummer performs better than the CT best I can tell. Its not as fast but that's because of the massive weight differential from the 212 kwh battery pack. You watch videos of the CT offroad and it rides like a pile ogf crap with the air suspension on high, the one foot driving is crappy and will just start rolling randomly down hill, the traction control sucks, the motors get hot after only some mild obstacles. The hummers, on the other hand, seems to be extremely well sorted. The suspension and pretty much everything else seems to be superior if you arnt just look at paper numbers.

I also dont understand why you would say the hummer is a joke when it, and the Silverado EV with the same/similar battery pack, are the only ones that even have something close to a reasonable towing range. Throwing a huge battery pack is the only way to make these trucks functional at this point. The battery tech and charging infrastructure is not at the point where you can argue otherwise. Silverado EV's are getting 450-500 miles of range unloaded. How else do you do that at this point beside throwing a 200 kwh battery at it?

But you're kinda making my point. These trucks are dumb, at least for the purposes of being a truck. Im not saying I would buy a hummer, just that if I had to pick a $100k+ EV right now, thats it.