Your Thoughts on the LC 250?

[ace10]

If the 300 didn't exist in the US market, then I'd be more-or-less okay with the 250 wearing the "Land Cruiser" badge here. But the 300 is available, which means that the 250 isn't the pinnacle of the Toyota truck lineup. It should have been given a different name. Resurrect "FJ Cruiser" or something like that.
Sorry, but that's just how this relatively-long term Land Cruiser owner feels.

 

[Brown98LC]

Technically
Naming the 250 "Land Cruiser" in the US isn't as blasphemous as it sounds.
In many countries around the world, the Prado is the only LC available so they just badge it as Land Cruiser.
It hurts because you guys got the 200 until recently but outside of ih8mud no one could care less.

 

[Brown98LC]

So let's say the 250 ends up having relatively poor US sales compared to the 4Runner...who would need to die...the 4R or the LC ? (in the US)
I have a strong feeling the LC might get cannibalised by both the 550 from the top and 4R from below.

Rest of the world it won't be an issue because no 4R outside of North/South America.

Food for thought.

 

[jayp2]

So let's say the 250 ends up having relatively poor US sales compared to the 4Runner...who would need to die...the 4R or the LC ? (in the US)
I have a strong feeling the LC might get cannibalised by both the 550 from the top and 4R from below.

Rest of the world it won't be an issue because no 4R outside of North/South America.

Food for thought.

I thought the 4R was branded the Surf in a bunch of other markets or did they discontinue that?

 

[TWILLY]

Technically
Naming the 250 "Land Cruiser" in the US isn't as blasphemous as it sounds.
In many countries around the world, the Prado is the only LC available so they just badge it as Land Cruiser.
It hurts because you guys got the 200 until recently but outside of ih8mud no one could care less.

It hurts because in the US we jumped from a lineage of "wagon" to "light duty" capacities and utility; these are objective, numerical, and consequential decreases in capacity and utility, regardless of one's feelings about badges.

I expect 250 sales will start somewhat strong but fade under pressure of a poor new car market and cannibalism by the new 4runner, whose value proposition will make the largely similar 250 a tough sell.

It's absolutely true that nobody beyond this forum really cares.

 

[Brown98LC]

I thought the 4R was branded the Surf in a bunch of other markets or did they discontinue that?

No more hilux surf.
The closest thing today to a hilux surf is pretty much the fortuner.

 

[SUMMIT CRUISERS Jr]

The 250's low capacities, like a 1360 lb payload, are pretty disappointing. It limits some of the core utility that Land Cruisers were known for and that the 250 was supposed to have returned to. That's not getting up in arms, but it is to say, for example, that a of week desert camping for four adults will put this truck over its limits.

I’ve seen payloads all over the place on the internet but haven’t seen it in any Toyota publication yet.

On the web, I’ve seen a few ranges of payloads for the 200 series ranging from ~1600lbs to what autoblog lists as 1,320 lbs for a heritage edition. That seems low, but that’s just based on a quick google search.

A 1992 Land Cruiser has a higher payload than a 200 series, so one could say the 200 series is pretty disappointing too. Granted some beefier suspension systems, increased sway bar diameters, brake upgrades, higher load rated tires, and a few other things thrown on any cruiser and the payload is pretty much well ignored by a lot of us in the cruiser world. We just see the negatives in reduced responsiveness, decreased fuel mileage, increased stopping distances, and handling. Like anything, just takes a different approach to driving.

So let's say the 250 ends up having relatively poor US sales compared to the 4Runner...who would need to die...the 4R or the LC ? (in the US)
I have a strong feeling the LC might get cannibalised by both the 550 from the top and 4R from below.

Rest of the world it won't be an issue because no 4R outside of North/South America.

Food for thought.

I’m honestly hoping the 4runner far exceeds the Land Cruiser in sales. I already see enough 5th gens driven by people who only buy them because other people they know bought one and it’s the cool thing to have. I personally wouldn't want to see Land Cruisers be turned into the next Jeep where before you know it, people are leaving ducks on each others vehicles and being obligated to wave to each other under the fear of social exclusion for missing a wave. In my experience, that has been what has generally been pretty cool and different in cruiser culture. People I see typically driving cruisers are enthusiasts or at least really appreciate them vs just buying the “current stylish thing” which I see a lot more of with the Tacoma and 4runner crowds.

I know they’re marketing this big time for more sales, but a higher price will definitely make the value proposition harder for people if the 6th gen 4runner is pretty much everything in a cheaper package. At that point though, you’re basically buying the badge and aesthetics.

 

[TWILLY]

I’ve seen payloads all over the place on the internet but haven’t seen it in any Toyota publication yet.

On the web, I’ve seen a few ranges of payloads for the 200 series ranging from ~1600lbs to what autoblog lists as 1,320 lbs for a heritage edition. That seems low, but that’s just based on a quick google search.

A 1992 Land Cruiser has a higher payload than a 200 series, so one could say the 200 series is pretty disappointing too. Granted some beefier suspension systems, increased sway bar diameters, brake upgrades, higher load rated tires, and a few other things thrown on any cruiser and the payload is pretty much well ignored by a lot of us in the cruiser world. We just see the negatives in reduced responsiveness, decreased fuel mileage, increased stopping distances, and handling. Like anything, just takes a different approach to driving.



I’m honestly hoping the 4runner far exceeds the Land Cruiser in sales. I already see enough 5th gens driven by people who only buy them because other people they know bought one and it’s the cool thing to have. I personally wouldn't want to see Land Cruisers be turned into the next Jeep where before you know it, people are leaving ducks on each others vehicles and being obligated to wave to each other under the fear of social exclusion for missing a wave. In my experience, that has been what has generally been pretty cool and different in cruiser culture. People I see typically driving cruisers are enthusiasts or at least really appreciate them vs just buying the “current stylish thing” which I see a lot more of with the Tacoma and 4runner crowds.

I know they’re marketing this big time for more sales, but a higher price will definitely make the value proposition harder for people if the 6th gen 4runner is pretty much everything in a cheaper package. At that point though, you’re basically buying the badge and aesthetics.

Payload (curb and gross weights) and other specs were briefly published. Some of those are summarized, compared across series, and discussed here.

 

[GTV]

So let's say the 250 ends up having relatively poor US sales compared to the 4Runner...who would need to die...the 4R or the LC ? (in the US)
I have a strong feeling the LC might get cannibalised by both the 550 from the top and 4R from below.

True, the sales might not be so great. But the new LC is nothing more than one of three trim levels and therefore is much less expensive than its predecessor to keep around.

 

[Jetboy]

I’m honestly hoping the 4runner far exceeds the Land Cruiser in sales. I already see enough 5th gens driven by people who only buy them because other people they know bought one and it’s the cool thing to have. I personally wouldn't want to see Land Cruisers be turned into the next Jeep where before you know it, people are leaving ducks on each others vehicles and being obligated to wave to each other under the fear of social exclusion for missing a wave. In my experience, that has been what has generally been pretty cool and different in cruiser culture. People I see typically driving cruisers are enthusiasts or at least really appreciate them vs just buying the “current stylish thing” which I see a lot more of with the Tacoma and 4runner crowds.

I know they’re marketing this big time for more sales, but a higher price will definitely make the value proposition harder for people if the 6th gen 4runner is pretty much everything in a cheaper package. At that point though, you’re basically buying the badge and aesthetics.

I can't see a scenario where the 4Runner doesn't out sell the lc250. It's gotta be $15k less expensive. And it kinda has to have TRD off road model that's going to be as good or better than the lc250 as an off-road model. I think it'll also have a 3rd row option. And more cargo capacity. My bet is that 4Runner sells about 4:1 maybe 10:1 vs lc250.

It was 50:1 vs the 200. So 10:1 might still let the 250 exist.

 

[Specialeyes]

I personally wouldn't want to see Land Cruisers be turned into the next Jeep where before you know it, people are leaving ducks on each others vehicles and being obligated to wave to each other under the fear of social exclusion for missing a wave. In my experience, that has been what has generally been pretty cool and different in cruiser culture. People I see typically driving cruisers are enthusiasts or at least really appreciate them vs just buying the “current stylish thing” which I see a lot more of with the Tacoma and 4runner crowds.

FWIW I came from a 4Runner and there was no “wave” or rubber ducks or anything particularly tribal to 4R owners. Maybe some dog owners calling them “fur runners” and posting pics of their mutts hanging out in the back with the rear window down? There is a bit of a “bro” stigma with some Tacoma and 4Runner builds which I’m not into lol but that can be found in many 4WD circles.

 

[Specialeyes]

I fully expect the 6th gen runner to outsell the 250 LC and I bet Toyota is projecting the same. 4Runner is a fan favorite here in the states and the name has more recognition outside of enthusiast circles. I’ve had many people mistake my 200 for a 4Runner or Highlander.

 

[Phillyd2]

FWIW I came from a 4Runner and there was no “wave” or rubber ducks or anything particularly tribal to 4R owners. Maybe some dog owners calling them “fur runners” and posting pics of their mutts hanging out in the back with the rear window down? There is a bit of a “bro” stigma with some Tacoma and 4Runner builds which I’m not into lol but that can be found in many 4WD circles.

In the few early years it was a little community but now....yeah, it is what it is which would be fine but that the rest of us need to suffer from what it has become. No different than overlander ruining the off road community.

 

[Brown98LC]

One thing I have noticed
In recent land cruisers
200/300
I never drove 150 so can't compare.

They have jittery rear ends.
You don't realise it until you drive a healthy LC 100.

I'm not comparing anything else, just the ride of the rear end.
The rear of the lc100 rides so well for a solid axle vehicle, the back almost takes bumps almost like an IRS vehicle. Beautiful.

Curious if the 250 may have fine tuned that vs 300.

 

[MeWantLC]

I wonder how many people would be up in arms if we weren’t getting the Toyota badged “Land Cruiser” 250 here in the states and instead we already had a Toyota badged 300 series for 100k? I think lots of people wish we could buy a hilux, but in reality if we got it, I think people would be complaining about it in exactly the same manner we see people complaining about the 250 series ie. being light duty with a small power plant because we have already been conditioned to the tundra.

At the end of the day, the Land Cruiser returning to the US is just that. A Land Cruiser badged product (that Toyota has determined is worthy of the name) being available for us to purchase in the US. I do not really see it as a bait and switch. It’s a reevaluation of the market with a new offering. Clearly selling 2k vehicles per year wasn’t that interesting and I think that would be the trend (if not worse) if we had the 300 series on sale for 100k with a TTv6.

Agreed with you.

And also, many have said it before , the 300 is here, the issue is all the complainers don't want to pay the $100k or so Lexus asks for them, payload or not.

The LC200 "final payload" as calculated by TWILLY is only 128lbs different between LC200 and LC250, so not sure how much of the complaints are for around 100 lbs...

It is also very unfortunate we don't have the Fortuner here in the USA, fine vehicles...

 

[TWILLY]

Agreed with you.

And also, many have said it before , the 300 is here, the issue is all the complainers don't want to pay the $100k or so Lexus asks for them, payload or not.

The LC200 "final payload" as calculated by TWILLY is only 128lbs different between LC200 and LC250, so not sure how much of the complaints are for around 100 lbs...

It is also very unfortunate we don't have the Fortuner here in the USA, fine vehicles...

I don’t think that’s correct.

The model year 2020 200’s (a year I randomly chose) also paltry payload exceeds the 250’s by about 190 lbs — one passenger’s weight.

The 2021s show 1570 and 1670 payload for the max lux-bloat and heritage editions, respectively — around 210 and 310 lbs more than the 250.

The base spec GX 300 series tops out at about 1730 lbs payload, about 360 lbs more than the US base spec 1958 250.

And just for fun, the 2024 4Runner SR5 4x4 payload is 1625 lbs, besting the lux bloat 200s and the 250.

 

[Jstawgn]

The Australian GVM upgrade are mainly spring and shocks.
No brake upgrade except pad if it even needed.
No cooling system upgrade.
No frame upgrade
No axle upgrade.

TOYOTA - 300 SERIES | Lovells Automotive

TOYOTA - 300 SERIES | Lovells Automotive

www.lovellsauto.com.au

Knowing how suspension works, the quoted OEM payload are very understandable. Otherwise people would complain that it rode like a dump truck

 

[MeWantLC]

I don’t think that’s correct.

The model year 2020 200’s (a year I randomly chose) also paltry payload exceeds the 250’s by about 190 lbs — one passenger’s weight.

The 2021s show 1570 and 1670 payload for the max lux-bloat and heritage editions, respectively — around 210 and 310 lbs more than the 250.

The base spec GX 300 series tops out at about 1730 lbs payload, about 360 lbs more than the US base spec 1958 250.

And just for fun, the 2024 4Runner SR5 4x4 payload is 1625 lbs, besting the lux bloat 200s and the 250.

I used your own spreadsheet... I did not Google those other numbers.

 

[ikarus]

Agreed with you.

And also, many have said it before , the 300 is here, the issue is all the complainers don't want to pay the $100k or so Lexus asks for them, payload or not.

The LC200 "final payload" as calculated by TWILLY is only 128lbs different between LC200 and LC250, so not sure how much of the complaints are for around 100 lbs...

It is also very unfortunate we don't have the Fortuner here in the USA, fine vehicles...

Not all of us complainers... I bought a '21 200 brand new and if I could buy one of these in the US, it would be in my garage right now:

But I realize there aren't that many people in my situation. My wife and I drove an LX600 last year and were considering buying one but several things stopped us:
1. The front grille and overall soccer mom chrome is such a buzzkill. (F-Sport does improve it a lot though.) Much prefer the look of the 300. We want a family SUV that can go offroad with slight modifications AKA I don't want to chop the front for a new bumper just to gain some decent clearance. I would love the options and lockers etc. that the rest of the world gets on the 300.
2. Overall the LX600 is a great SUV and if I didn't have a 200 I would probably be more inclined to get one. It drove well and was comfortable, and a nice interior upgrade over the 200 in some ways. BUT it just wasn't enough of an upgrade for me to dump a 3 year old 200 Series.
3. I would either have a massive payment thanks to interest rates/inflation or I would have to sell my paid off 200 - and still have a small loan or dump some cash into it, I think the MSRP on the 2 I drove was around $120K - and I would just rather have a 200 than an LX600. If it was 200 vs 300... that would be a more difficult decision for me.

Funny enough the lack of a 300 is forcing me to be frugal and chill out on car purchasing for a while. We're going to see how the first couple years of the GX550 goes and maybe get my wife one. If not, there's just nothing in the market that interests us right now as a replacement for a 200. Haha we've driven everything from LX600s and new Tundras/Seqouias to Taycans (0-60 in 2.something sheesh) and every time we leave a dealership my wife is like meh, I like the 200 more.

It hurts because in the US we jumped from a lineage of "wagon" to "light duty" capacities and utility; these are objective, numerical, and consequential decreases in capacity and utility, regardless of one's feelings about badges.

I expect 250 sales will start somewhat strong but fade under pressure of a poor new car market and cannibalism by the new 4runner, whose value proposition will make the largely similar 250 a tough sell.

It's absolutely true that nobody beyond this forum really cares.

Yes that's a great point, let's make one thing clear, we're such a minority. Nobody cares. My family and friends are sick of hearing my rants about cars so you guys gotta hear it here. haha

I think this is a logical continuation of every argument that happens when a new cruiser comes out right?
40 -- 60 = what is this huge wagon? (IDK I wasn't really alive back then TBH)
60 -- 80 = what is this bubbly monstrosity?
80 -- 100 = you're calling this soccer mom suv with torsion bars a "land cruiser??"
100 -- 200 = this thing is massive and looks like a highlander
200 -- 250 = hey this is actually a Prado guys, they're tricking us

I know it's stupid and pedantic but it would have just felt a little more honest if they would have announced that the Land Cruiser Prado was coming to the USA. Imagine it's 1994 or something and Toyota announces that the USA is getting the 70 Series Land Cruiser - but everyone notices they're not getting the HZJ77 or whatever, instead the US is getting the KZJ77, the "light duty" version. Isn't that what's happening here?

End of the day, I'm torn:

On the one hand I'm glad that Toyota is listening to the market, I'm glad we still have body on frame vehicles, I'm glad it's still a pretty cool boxy SUV that I'm sure will look great and perform well with bigger tires and a lift etc. Gotta count your blessings

On the other hand I'm annoyed that Toyota doesn't look at what Ford and Jeep are doing, or even INEOS, and realize that they could bring some pretty serious offroad capability to the US and people would buy it. I just saw that "In 2022, Jeep sold 181,409 Wranglers while Ford sold 117,057 Broncos." There's a pretty sizeable following of Toyota enthusiasts when you combine Tacomas, Tundras, 4Runners, FJ Cruisers, Land Cruisers - and we all know that a big chunk of that population is doing some ridiculous stuff just to get 35s to fit on IFS trucks.

I will give Toyota credit, I think they're doing some really cool stuff with the GR Yaris, Supra, and 86. And I think they're doing some pretty cool stuff on the SUV/truck side. I think for a lot of us we're still stuck in Toyota's offroad golden years and like an old man screaming at the clouds we're just wondering why? Why can't we have solid axles like a Wrangler or RAM? Why can't we fit 35s stock like a Bronco, Raptor or an 80 Series? Why can't we have long travel options from the factory like Ford? Why can't we have massive payloads? Why can't we get the $85K 300 Series with the 3.5 here in the US? (After dealer markups, the 250 is going to cost close to that) Can we have huge gas tanks? Simple, rugged cars like 70 Series? (yeah yeah I know gov't regulations and crash tests and all that) Cheaper cars that don't have everything computerized and connected to the cloud? Is it really all the government's fault?

 

[TWILLY]

I used your own spreadsheet... I did not Google those other numbers.

Then you misread it; here.