Winch Decisions ??

[greentruck]

BTW, spurred by this discussion of the importance of rigging, dug around and found something I was trying to find earlier. If you like the Big W's nicer snatch blocks, they're pricey, heavy duty and imported AFAIK, but you can get them cheaper.

Material Handling-Lifting, Hoisting, Pulling

Look down the page for BLOC 1240. It's rated at 4.5 tons, but that's a very conservative rating. I believe it's the exact same one that W rates at 24,000. The casting still says "4.5 tons" anyway. I thought about getting the big one (6 ton/36,000) but that's way too big to schlepp around, especially if you have two of them. And with them still $34.50/each as they were when I bought mine in 2010, why not have 2?

Allen also has some other very competitively priced rigging worth checking out. Excellent, prompt service, too.

Another place to find affordable rigging is at the local farmer's big box. Farmer's are cheap, but they like good stuff for snagging out 4WD tractors, etc. That's where my shackles came from.

 

[greentruck]

For context: the recovery of my 80

Ouch, that was ugly to see.

Note the floor mats in use on both cables...

Those second cables are very important in the mountains...

I saved a 40 series on a trip to CO circa 1990. Was just getting into the mountains, coming in the back trail to Great Sand Dunes and we'd just cresting the top and started westward downhill. There's a kid walking in the middle of the trail! Says his family is stuck, hung-up and about to roll. He was sent to get help and had been walking uphill for awhile and definitely headed the wrong way to town. Dad was an idiot (other than owning a 40) for sending him that way, which proved to be pretty much the case when we arrived on scene about 10 minutes later.

Inattention to the trail and suddenly they were off it on the downhill side...whoops! Fortunately, the poor 40 managed to get sorta stuck in a hefty sapling that kept it from going over, which it surely would have. That made winching only dicey. I had a Warn 6,000 lb on my Isuzu Trooper II -- and no one else seemed likely to come along given it was already quite late in the day. I did have a decent capacity comealong -- something else handy to have as rigging. It would have to do. With my extra cable or snatch strap, can't remember which, we rigged the comealong to a tree uphill. Essentially, I pulled with the winch, while the comealong and its line acted as the suspension for the 40 as a pendulum. Took a little while to rig properly, but the actual pull was quick and relatively drama-free. They were on their way.

 

[izzyandsue]

Good stuff! I hope to never roll, but now I know how it feels like and recover. Will take videos and pics from the class this weekend, at least you can see how the Engo worked. They did promised to get me well stuck in various conditions, this being the last class on the series where we put it all together.

 

[baldilocks]

It's safe to say any winch will last forever if it never gets used or used once a year. My question is, why not support American companies by purchasing American made products or products that were at least conceived here so the money stays here. And I don't want to hear about how our favorite vehicle was not made in America.

 

[greentruck]

It's safe to say any winch will last forever if it never gets used or used once a year. My question is, why not support American companies by purchasing American made products or products that were at least conceived here so the money stays here. And I don't want to hear about how our favorite vehicle was not made in America.

It's a little thing called the household budget. For the price difference, in many cases you can afford most of what an ARB costs you. You can always upgrade the winch later, if funds allow. In the meantime, hit the trails and rest assured that the more affordable winch will do 99% of what the ideal option will.

 

[Box Rocket]

It's safe to say any winch will last forever if it never gets used or used once a year. My question is, why not support American companies by purchasing American made products or products that were at least conceived here so the money stays here. And I don't want to hear about how our favorite vehicle was not made in America.

I like to support US made products as much as the next guy. If all things are equal, price, quality, reliability, performance etc then I likely choose a US made product. However, I have no problem purchasing a foreign made product when it is a better answer for what my needs are. My COMEUP is one such example. The same argument could be made for the ARB/OME stuff on my truck. Personally I see no reason to "shortchange" myself with a possibly inferior product merely because it's made in the US.

Oh, and our 'favorite vehicle' is not American made.

 

[baldilocks]

I have been wheeling for 26 years now and most of those years I had no winch because I could not afford one. I spent a good many hours using a highlift back then, but thanks to Bill Clinton anyone can now afford an object that resembles a winch. The Chinese send us garbage in a box because they don't respect us. On the other hand, Japan sent us a vehicle superior to those that we built. Makes me wonder why.

 

[half k cruiser]

Whatever the Chinese are sending us is because we the people are creating a demand for it. If it were that big a piece of garbage there wouldn't be a 30 page thread on it over in Winch Tech.

 

[baldilocks]

Crooked politicians are the only reason the Chinese are allowed to sell such products to us, but this is a debate for a different forum. "Don't be a bleeding heart, your posterity will suffer for it."

 

[half k cruiser]

For those wanting to learn winching techniques, find a way to watch a tow truck driver. These guys are the best there is. Its amazing what they can get a car to do even when its smashed flat or burned to a puddle. Also, if you are into ropes and what not you can read up on rope and pulley systems. The same principles that govern the safe and effective use of rope systems can definitely be transferred to winching systems. The big difference is obviously the weight involved.

One more note, if you want well made recovery equipment, I recommend buying online from a rigging company. Especially if your getting snatch straps, bow slings, shackles, etc. What your looking for is actual rated equipment, not the stuff you can get from your local 4x4 shop. A good sling will have a tag on it ( usually orange or white ) that tells you the real load limit for 3 different rigging configurations, straight, girth and u shaped loop. This is the stuff that actual riggers / crane operators use all day to move big equipment and loads. I've generally found this equipment to not only be of much higher quality, but usually cheaper than what you will pay for the not so equivalent strap at your local shop.

 

[Tapage]

interesting thread ..

I've been winching since 1996 when back in the day basically you had Warn, Ramsey, Mile Marker ( hydraulic ) and Superwinch ..

I'm a believer on backup .. where is made, well we all know what's happening these days, but the ability to have parts to replace in your winch, it's priceless to me.

and about capacity, it all depends on how many problems you would like to get in .. since I do on the good ones I have a 16.5 Superwinch on Tencha .. so far, flawless ..

 

[maxamillion2345]

I only run CM or Crosby shackles. ^

 

[LINUS]

For those that want to expand their understanding of winching, I'll add that my background in rope rescue (a little bit search/rescue, but mainly we had a rescue / medical team in the oil refinery I worked) -- learning the basics of what the difference between compound pulling & a simple change of direction pulley is can be simplified so much when working on a smaller scale.

I spend many hours with the mountaineering book & a few lengths of rope while watching a ball game on tv, or whatever - and also these books are great to help when say you need to anchor a pulley & may be short on clevis - learning what a full strength tieoff is & how to quickly drop rope if you need to do more than recover a vehicle (like rescue a injured occupant) is a worthy skill to add to the old "mental toolbox".

I highly encourage the class format mentioned, but even picking up a $15 mountaineering book & $20 of sample ropes to teach yourself knots & configurations is money well spent too. It's empowering to know you can efficiently drop rope to get to a situation in a quick timeframe, let alone rig a safe recovery when the clock isn't an issue.

 

[wv_lx450]

I only run CM or Crosby shackles. ^

CM shackles here. Never had a problem with them.

 

[Felix]

Does anyone know of a 12k winch that will fit into a slee shortbus?

Christo mentioned other brands of 12k being the same size as a 9.5xp and "might" fit..

Not a 12K, but I have the Runva 11XP-S in my ShortBus. 11,000 lbs, synthetic rope, wireless remote, $550 shipped. Used it 3-4 times in the last few days during the blizzard, pulling stupid neighbors out of the snow.

 

[rblain82]

I have a Quadratec Q11000S. When I bought the FJ the winch motor was burned out, I called them and they shipped me out a brand new motor for free. Lifetime warranty. Just got it installed back last weekend. Going to be buying a Factor 55 ProLink soon.

Sent from my iPhone

 

[SmokingRocks]

Do not skimp on the winch. If you do it will fail when you need it most.

I have seen a badlands winch burn up mid pull which left us only a high-lift to recover with. I have also seen a Warn VR10 burn up on a pull as well (VR's are china internals assembled state side).

Personally I like warn, I have a Zeon 12k for my fully armored 80 on 315s and it does its job well. It wasn't cheap but when I need it I have no doubt in my mind that it will work. Anything less than 12k for a loaded out armored 80 is underrated IMO.

While selecting a winch choose the winch the rated line pull of which is at least 50% greater than your gross vehicle weight ( Weight of the vehicle loaded fully which in our case is between 6-7k lbs). This is done taking in account the fact that the there is a drop of 12% for every next wrap on the drum, a 10k lb rated winch would have line pull of around 7, 600 lbs on the third wrap. Thats putting a lot of strain on your winch if your truck weighs in just under 7k lbs.

 

[greentruck]

Do not skimp on the winch. If you do it will fail when you need it most.

I have seen a badlands winch burn up mid pull which left us only a high-lift to recover with. I have also seen a Warn VR10 burn up on a pull as well (VR's are china internals assembled state side).

SNIP

While selecting a winch choose the winch the rated line pull of which is at least 50% greater than your gross vehicle weight ( Weight of the vehicle loaded fully which in our case is between 6-7k lbs). This is done taking in account the fact that the there is a drop of 12% for every next wrap on the drum, a 10k lb rated winch would have line pull of around 7, 600 lbs on the third wrap. Thats putting a lot of strain on your winch if your truck weighs in just under 7k lbs.

Repeatedly "burning" up winches? Try not to be in such a big hurry.

A snatch block also helps...a lot.

It also compensates for having an extra wrap or two on the drum. In fact, just rigging a snatch block up takes roughly twice as much cable off the drum in itself, getting you down to the nice first wrap and max pull as you've cited, as well as significantly lessening the effort the winch needs to out out to move the load.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Repeatedly "burning" up winches? Try not to be in such a big hurry.

First off, I was not hurrying, you can't slow down a winch.... Hurrying a recovery is when people get hurt and equipment gets trashed. I've seen smoke come off the solenoids on cheap winches when they died on two trucks in our group on separate runs. Never seen it happen on a quality winch, not saying its not possible just less probable. Both events were fully out single line pulls with no closer anchors available. This was when I was just starting into the scene 4 or 5 years ago so I was not in charge of any recovery ops just an observer.

Looking back on it now, sure we could have deadman anchored a rig to the point and snatch strapped off that. But come on dude. If you have a Warn VR10000 winch on your FJ40 and you got stuck in a mud hole you would pull your cable out to the tree and winch like that dude did. It was not a "big hurry". It was "I've got a 10,000lb warn I can pull myself out".

Secondly to say that a cheap winch will do 99.9% of what the more expensive winches will do but then suggest it should be snatched for every pull to 'not be in a hurry' would leave me to believe that the cheap winches are only about 50% as capable as the more expensive ones.

Yes snatch blocks are great tools and when used correctly are much safer than a single line pull. But snatching isn't always an option. When its not and you need to get un-stuck I personally wouldn't want to doubt the ability of my winch to pull single line.

I get it you like cheap winches, thats fine and it will probably be OK if you only use it several times a year but one day its going to fail mid pull regardless if you snatch it every time. If you don't ever plan on pushing your rig to explore its limits off-road then a badlands is probably OK. But if you are that kind of a adventure seeker (if you're considering buying a winch then you most likely are) then save up for a couple more months and buy quality.

You've got to ask yourself "am I comfortable being stranded with a broken winch and a stuck rig in a situation that could really suck?" because it could happen. Yea it may happen on a trail run with others who can help. Or it could happen when you are out alone and you're in a precarious spot on a normally easy trail 10 miles away from cell service and 50 miles away from the nearest town.

Now your stranded, your truck is stuck, its snowing and its getting dark... These things happen to people. Take away is that its better to have equipment that you can rely on all the time. I run lots of trails and my winch gets used regularly so my stance is certainly biased so take it for what its worth.

Thats my buck o five.

 

[baldilocks]

Amen @SmokingRocks! As I stated before, I have a practically new Engo in my garage that's all bound up inside because the break failed after maybe a dozen pulls. Not one feature of that winch exhibits the quality of the Warn I bought to replace it. Beware that Warns VR series is cheaper because it's their Chinese offering for those who like put money in China's pockets.