Who has built the snot out of a 3FE

[cruiserinsanity]

Who has built the snot out of a 3FE? I know it’s been done in the past, I know it’s not worth it and I know someone is going to bring up the LS.

But who has built a racetractor 3FE, and what did you do to it?

 

[cruisermatt]

What do you mean by “built”? That’s a very general term. What are your goals?

 

[cruiserinsanity]

Similar to the Mosley Cop motor, bored over, cam, bigger valves, more power than stock

 

[Zjohnsonua]

This is where the goals that Matt was asking for come into play. Technically, yes, more power can be gotten out of a 3FE. Is that (relatively meager) gain worth the price? That's up to the owner.

 

[CruiserTrash]

I am by NO means an expert on engine building - never even done it before - but when I had my head rebuilt at a local machine shop the guy basically said the same thing as @Zjohnsonua is saying: you can spend a lot of money and wring out pretty meager gains. Basically the cost-benefit ratio is pretty bad, but if you got nothing but money, sure, go for it. FWIW, this shop has been working on all the local cruiser folks’ motors for 30-40 years at least, they knew what my 2F head was from 30’ away when I brought it into the shop.

That being said, I’m a fan of big dumb eccentric ideas and do ‘em all the time myself. Go for it!

Also there was some guy who built a 2F for something like a 6000-7000rpm redline. See here.

 

[Spook50]

It's funny that this comes up because with my impending fuel injector job, I'm waffling back and forth between spending the money or not to have my spare throttle body bored out. I already have a more free flowing exhaust (the typical 2.5" single, Y-piped at the downpipes through a Flow master three-chamber) so I would expect the larger throttle body to make some improvement. Would it be worth it? Maybe. That's what I'm fighting myself over.

 

[cruiserinsanity]

I’m just curious as to who has done it and with what parts. All of it is theoretical.
I do not have the capital to do it at this point and will not for quite some time as I’m still in school. I know that there are better options that make a lot more power cheaper.

 

[HemiAlex]

I’ve got some of the parts you’d want. Figure out a way to get them in Texas.

 

[EWheeler]

Here is aome reading material for your mental mastubration

Builds - 2F + (3F-E) = 2FETI Into My FJ40

2F + 3FE = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40 Well after reading a few threads on grafting a 3FE head on to a 2F block we have decided to go the whole 9 yards and return the punt for a touch down and build an injected turbo water inter cooled 2F. I already have a worked 2F that rocks that's been rebuilt and...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[chelo]

Here is aome reading material for your mental mastubration

Builds - 2F + (3F-E) = 2FETI Into My FJ40

2F + 3FE = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40 Well after reading a few threads on grafting a 3FE head on to a 2F block we have decided to go the whole 9 yards and return the punt for a touch down and build an injected turbo water inter cooled 2F. I already have a worked 2F that rocks that's been rebuilt and...

forum.ih8mud.com

I was just going to link that .

 

[Mark W]

Both Matt, and Andy (RIP) built some pretty wild motors. They both went through some evolutions that I don't think ever got told about here. A 2FE build makes a lot more sense than a pure 3F build. The only 3F I ever modded at all just got oversize pistons which gave a very small bump to compression, chevy valves (just because really) and a longer bumpstick. This woke it up noticably, but nothing like what we were doing with basic hotrod stuff on the 2Fs. There have been a couple of 2FE builds documented here on Mud which, while not as over the top as Matt and Andy wound up doing, were definitely more than just a cam. Good results IIRC.

Mark...

 

[Godwin]

I’m just curious as to who has done it and with what parts. All of it is theoretical.
I do not have the capital to do it at this point and will not for quite some time as I’m still in school. I know that there are better options that make a lot more power cheaper.

Replace the timing belt on the Alltrac and sell it. Replace the clutch on the Forester and sell it. You still won't have enough $$ to build up a hot 3FE, so sell the FJ60. Now you have enough $$ but no longer have the Cruiser to put it in.

 

[Spook50]

Replace the timing belt on the Alltrac and sell it. Replace the clutch on the Forester and sell it. You still won't have enough $$ to build up a hot 3FE, so sell the FJ60. Now you have enough $$ but no longer have the Cruiser to put it in.

Why is it that I pictured (and heard) this guy saying exactly that....

 

[Mark W]

If you build a 3FE, you definitely want to understand, it is NOT a high RPM motor. As in, less so than the 2F even. Those short rods and short pistons in a short block (not a shortblock) with a long stroke... makes for some nasty side loading on the pistons. I still have at least two out of the three busted ones I pulled out of 3F's that thought they could soar with the eagles. Penguins will never soar with the eagles.

The 2F's weak link is rod bolts that can not take the stresses of yanking that piston back downward on the intake stroke at 6000 or so. At least not for long. But you can upgrade the rod bolts. Even though the 3F rod/piston combo is 250 grams lighter that the 2F setup and might at first glance seem like it would be happier at the same rpm, the side loading is too much for the pistons (at least for any non-custom built pistons available for this engine) and there is nothing you can do to reduce it.

Not to mention that the longer rod of the 2F will make better power right out of the gate.

Which is why I say that the 2FE is the engine that Toyot should have made.


Mark...

 

[AirFuelRatioMan]

If you build a 3FE, you definitely want to understand, it is NOT a high RPM motor. As in, less so than the 2F even. Those short rods and short pistons in a short block (not a shortblock) with a long stroke... makes for some nasty side loading on the pistons. I still have at least two out of the three busted ones I pulled out of 3F's that thought they could soar with the eagles. Penguins will never soar with the eagles.

The 2F's weak link is rod bolts that can not take the stresses of yanking that piston back downward on the intake stroke at 6000 or so. At least not for long. But you can upgrade the rod bolts. Even though the 3F rod/piston combo is 250 grams lighter that the 2F setup and might at first glance seem like it would be happier at the same rpm, the side loading is too much for the pistons (at least for any non-custom built pistons available for this engine) and there is nothing you can do to reduce it.

Not to mention that the longer rod of the 2F will make better power right out of the gate.

Which is why I say that the 2FE is the engine that Toyot should have made.


Mark...

Wow, this is news to me, I always thought the 3F would be a better platform for higher revs due to 7 mains. Lots of turbo 3F engines down here in South America, I've been planning to do the same at some point. We just don't have the aftermarket support that Jeep 4.0, Chevy 292, and Ford 300 have to make a "built to snot" motor. There's a build on Powernation of the Ford 300 going from 88 HP to 270HP, by slightly upping compression, cam, lightly porting, bigger valves, better intake / exhaust / carb.. Which is a HUGE gain, but it was extremely restrictive to start out.

I've seen many builds using rods and pistons meant for engines other than the one being built. Finding a H-beam forged rod that will work with the 3F crank and forged pistons to suit shouldn't be that hard to do, even if some machining is required. If this was achieved, I'd build for boost, keeping compression low and gapping rings to .028. Some port work, hardened seats, bigger valves, headers, intake, and choice of carb / TBI running blow through would do nicely.

Non-USA 3F engines had carburetor intakes, so it's easy for me to adapt a Aces Fuel Injection TBI unit that is ready for boost, and easily tunable. I do not know the reliability of these units yet, but so far they seem to be top notch, and have a remote mounted ECU that isn't getting heat soaked by the engine. You couldn't pay me to install a Holley Sniper, unreliable s***e.

Offenhauser is apparently still manufacturing a 4 barrel intake manifold to suit the 2F, I am coming up short on finding any info on whether it is interchangeable with the 3F.. Offenhauser 6226-C Offenhauser C Series Intake Manifolds | Summit Racing - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ofy-6226-c

For a turbo, I'd go with a Holset HX25 or max, a Super HX30W so you would have immediate spool and low end torque. Regardless of how I built the motor, I would keep it a low revving torquer with a cam and turbo to suit.

My .02

 

[kirvesmies]

Wow, this is news to me, I always thought the 3F would be a better platform for higher revs due to 7 mains. Lots of turbo 3F engines down here in South America, I've been planning to do the same at some point. We just don't have the aftermarket support that Jeep 4.0, Chevy 292, and Ford 300 have to make a "built to snot" motor. There's a build on Powernation of the Ford 300 going from 88 HP to 270HP, by slightly upping compression, cam, lightly porting, bigger valves, better intake / exhaust / carb.. Which is a HUGE gain, but it was extremely restrictive to start out.

I've seen many builds using rods and pistons meant for engines other than the one being built. Finding a H-beam forged rod that will work with the 3F crank and forged pistons to suit shouldn't be that hard to do, even if some machining is required. If this was achieved, I'd build for boost, keeping compression low and gapping rings to .028. Some port work, hardened seats, bigger valves, headers, intake, and choice of carb / TBI running blow through would do nicely.

Non-USA 3F engines had carburetor intakes, so it's easy for me to adapt a Aces Fuel Injection TBI unit that is ready for boost, and easily tunable. I do not know the reliability of these units yet, but so far they seem to be top notch, and have a remote mounted ECU that isn't getting heat soaked by the engine. You couldn't pay me to install a Holley Sniper, unreliable s***e.

Offenhauser is apparently still manufacturing a 4 barrel intake manifold to suit the 2F, I am coming up short on finding any info on whether it is interchangeable with the 3F.. Offenhauser 6226-C Offenhauser C Series Intake Manifolds | Summit Racing - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ofy-6226-c

For a turbo, I'd go with a Holset HX25 or max, a Super HX30W so you would have immediate spool and low end torque. Regardless of how I built the motor, I would keep it a low revving torquer with a cam and turbo to suit.

My .02

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my googlyfoo is suckin' huge, is there dyno sheets floating around in the innerwebs?

 

[cruisermatt]

Wow, this is news to me, I always thought the 3F would be a better platform for higher revs due to 7 mains.

3F crankshaft absolutely does not have 7 main bearings

 

[AirFuelRatioMan]

3F crankshaft absolutely does not have 7 main bearings

What!!!! I don’t know how many times I’ve read it has seven. And I own one!

If that’s the case that changes things, and whether I would add boost..

The pics claim “more bearings on the crankshaft,” just an example..

Also CarFolio

 

[Mark W]

What!!!! I don’t know how many times I’ve read it has seven. And I own one!

If that’s the case that changes things, and whether I would add boost..

The pics claim “more bearings on the crankshaft,” just an example..

View attachment 3598408

View attachment 3598409

Also CarFolio

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I guess you could drop a couple old bearing shells in the oil pan as you bolted it all back together. What the heck, why not toss all the old bearings in... "10 main bearings!..

I remember reading a completely bogus claim years ago that the 3F crank was forged steel. I might have even repeated once or twice before I stopped and though about what I was saying.

In any event, the 5 main crank will handle any sort of RPM that you want to ask the rest of the engine to accept.

RE: your comments about non-OEM pistons/rods. That is what both the Andy's NZ race motor and Matts Aussie Motor had. Seems like either the rods were from a jag and the pistons were custom... or the other way around. But again, these were both 2FEs. Knowing what I know now, I would not build a 3F over a 2F.


Mark...

 

[AirFuelRatioMan]

I guess you could drop a couple old bearing shells in the oil pan as you bolted it all back together. What the heck, why not toss all the old bearings in... "10 main bearings!..

I remember reading a completely bogus claim years ago that the 3F crank was forged steel. I might have even repeated once or twice before I stopped and though about what I was saying.

In any event, the 5 main crank will handle any sort of RPM that you want to ask the rest of the engine to accept.

RE: your comments about non-OEM pistons/rods. That is what both the Andy's NZ race motor and Matts Aussie Motor had. Seems like either the rods were from a jag and the pistons were custom... or the other way around. But again, these were both 2FEs. Knowing what I know now, I would not build a 3F over a 2F.


Mark...

Yup, definitely stuck my foot in my mouth on that one

This makes me sad, as I took a pass on a few 2F 60s because I was partial to the 3F.