Welding practice

[leonard_nemoy]

I chuckle when I hear the conversation with folks that do body work and production welders.

Production welding is highly skilled and they do all they can for a proper penetration, good looking weld with minimal distortion, and optimum strength, while staying within the guidelines of ASME or AWS or whatever governing body applies.

Then there are panel beaters. Whatever glues that crap together, grind it off, cover it in Bondo, slam it back together, sand it down, and coat it. Welding for proper penetration and strength has NOTHING to do with it. It's ALL about the heat distortion and whatever is the least amount to make it "functional".

I cringe when I see folks do body work and the weld quality done with it. I inspect a lot of welds for AWS equipment (no, I am NOT a CWI) but I work with fabrication shops all over the USA, and I see all levels of expertise.

I am of the opinion that a weld must be complete, sealed, and proper penetration, but that translates to a lot of heat and proper setup, which takes time.

Then I see what "passes" for most body work and it is NOTHING like I think it should be. When it is done like I think, from a welding standpoint, then the body guy cannot recover it due to warpage.

So, I end up letting it rust into nothingness, because my OCD won't allow me to do half-assed work, so I do nothing at all......

You just need a silicone bronze mig brazer. This is the proper tool that professional auto body guys use.

 

[BILT4ME]

You just need a silicone bronze mig brazer. This is the proper tool that professional auto body guys use.

Was not aware of this.

Silicon, not silicone......

Silicon bronze welding

 

[aztoyman]

There's a build on here somewhere that the guy did a lot of silicon bronze TIG on. All his welds looked great.

 

[GerhardUngerer]

I cringe when I see folks do body work and the weld quality done with it. I inspect a lot of welds for AWS equipment (no, I am NOT a CWI) but I work with fabrication shops all over the USA, and I see all levels of expertise.

So, I end up letting it rust into nothingness, because my OCD won't allow me to do half-assed work, so I do nothing at all......

I hear you. I was told by a body shop guy that I am WAY over-engineering it.

I was told "Slap it on, weld it mostly on and cover the gaps with Bondo." I can't do that.

So....here we are. More practice.

 

[LINUS]

I chuckle when I hear the conversation with folks that do body work and production welders.

Production welding is highly skilled and they do all they can for a proper penetration, good looking weld with minimal distortion, and optimum strength, while staying within the guidelines of ASME or AWS or whatever governing body applies.

Then there are panel beaters. Whatever glues that crap together, grind it off, cover it in Bondo, slam it back together, sand it down, and coat it. Welding for proper penetration and strength has NOTHING to do with it. It's ALL about the heat distortion and whatever is the least amount to make it "functional".

I cringe when I see folks do body work and the weld quality done with it. I inspect a lot of welds for AWS equipment (no, I am NOT a CWI) but I work with fabrication shops all over the USA, and I see all levels of expertise.

I am of the opinion that a weld must be complete, sealed, and proper penetration, but that translates to a lot of heat and proper setup, which takes time.

Then I see what "passes" for most body work and it is NOTHING like I think it should be. When it is done like I think, from a welding standpoint, then the body guy cannot recover it due to warpage.

So, I end up letting it rust into nothingness, because my OCD won't allow me to do half-assed work, so I do nothing at all......

You make a great point - I was on a AC buzzbox before I turned 11 & by 5th-6th grade could build certain toys if pops bought me metal.

My home MIG is Miller 350p / push pull gun for AL & dedicated guns for mild or stainless.
Honestly if the AL job is small, I just TIG - I’m still dialing in a good pulsed MIG for say 1/4” AL plate & up.

But we never had a push-pull gun for the refinery so I’m my own ‘fish out of water’ there.
I have a retirement dream of building a AL boat tub like the Kiwi’s do - run a sit-down jetski jet power in a ~12’ tub / 2 person & gear for small river & smooth salt fun.

They don’t sell anything close in the USA, AFAIK it’s a pure Kiwi thing.
They race them & those sleds are frickin’ cool to me

 

[DivByZero]

You just need a silicone bronze mig brazer. This is the proper tool that professional auto body guys use.

Was not aware of this.

Silicon, not silicone......

Silicon bronze welding

Thanks, this is very interesting! It's leading me down a whole new path to be honest, hadn't seen this technique before. I haven't bought my tank yet, and I'm now thinking of going with a 100% Argon and starting with this on my MIG unit. I found this video while I was doing research, which shows a practical example using silicon bronze to do a butt joint, which I had trouble visualizing from the earlier video which focused on angles:


Looks pretty straightforward to me! Not burning off the zinc coating or causing heat distortion, and having a rust-proof fillter material, seems like it makes it ideal for body work. You can't always get behind a weld on a panel, and this looks like it'll leave the underside in a much better state.

 

[robmobile73]

TIG is awesome, and better for heat control, but MIG is super accessible and easy to pick up and be productive quickly. Ditto to comments above on tungsten. Machine setup can be a pain. And the welds sure can be pretty. I find the good ones (water cooled torch, foot pedal, AC/DC) aren't economical for how infrequently I weld in my home shop. The cheap lift start TIG that I have with my muliprocess machine is fine, but for most stuff I'd just use the MIG stinger or spool gun (mine is set up for aluminum). A buddy has a high end Miller TIG that is a joy to use, but it is a several thousand dollar rig (he welds for a living and hobby).

 

[robmobile73]

I don't TIG. I MIG weld. I have no doubt that with a tig I could better control heat and make a more precise pretty weld. Because of this I think it would be superior for small thin detailed/fine welding. With mig you can hold a piece of metal with one hand and securely tack it with the other on the mig torch. I understand you can tack with a tig torch without filler, but if you need filler it takes 2 hands. I think TIG would be more enjoyable for the hobby welder, but MIG you can get more done.

 

[leonard_nemoy]

I don't TIG. I MIG weld. I have no doubt that with a tig I could better control heat and make a more precise pretty weld. Because of this I think it would be superior for small thin detailed/fine welding. With mig you can hold a piece of metal with one hand and securely tack it with the other on the mig torch. I understand you can tack with a tig torch without filler, but if you need filler it takes 2 hands. I think TIG would be more enjoyable for the hobby welder, but MIG you can get more done.

Different welders for different applications. If you want to work on stainless steel, precision parts, things that have to be extremely clean, or really thin metal than tig is the only way.

But tig welding takes a lot more skill than mig. For an average guy doing fab projects in his garage mig is the better option. Welding correctly with a mig welder also takes considerable skill but for what most guys do in their garage bird turd welds work well enough.

I just finished this table frame to utilize some leftover granite from a friend's new counter tops. The slab of granite weighs 340lbs.

 

[Pascoscout]

I apologize if this was stated but your best option for cutting body panels is a body saw made specifically for this purpose. Thin blade, no heat and better control than a grinder.

Harbor freight offers electric and pneumatic versions which are cheap but function. You can also get a high quality one for around $100.

For cutting your replacement panels there are several good options. An electric hand shear works good for larger panels. Again Harbor freight offers one that's frankly as good as any other on the market. For smaller panels I use hand snips and my throatless shear. I have this one but Eastwood has a decent one for a lot less.

Beverly Shear B2

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I've done a ton of rust repair on another project. MIG welding with the spot/stich method works fine. Best way is silicon bronze tig or brass brazing.

Also get yourself a set of these clamps:

24Pc Metal Butt Welding Clamps Align Sheet Auto Car Truck Door Skin Panel Fender | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 24Pc Metal Butt Welding Clamps Align Sheet Auto Car Truck Door Skin Panel Fender at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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And a copper welding spoon. There is even a magnetic version that holds in place when you can't reach around.

VIM Tools MPWT Magnetic Plug Weld Tool | eBay

Cleaner welds, less panel distortion and flat weld inside panel This tool is designed to aide and speed up the welding of holes in steel body panels and general hole welding. The tool has a copper alloy pad that is placed behind the hole to be filled, and a magnetic base to keep it where it is...

www.ebay.com

 

[DivByZero]

On the topic of rust protective coatings on the 80, I recently acquired the european "new car features" manual for the 80 series. In German unfortunately, but you can translate it in real-time with Google lens. It has a couple of relevant pages which detail exactly what Toyota did in terms of rust prevention:

So yeah, multiple zinc/iron alloy layers used with different properties depending on the panel location.

 

[GerhardUngerer]

Update - I ran another test with a gap and it seems to work out very well. Someone earlier in this thread said that grinding the weld away when pieces are butted closely together causes a fragile join. I tested the join and it came apart in my hands. LESSON LEARNT. Remember, that weld didn't have enough penetration anyway.

I set it up again and left a blade-width gap between the pieces. I also made sure to try and focus on stick-out and time on trigger. Some did well, some didn't. But there was tremendous progress (at least in my mind).

Penetration is also pretty decent. I could have welded the bottom also, but decided to just leave it since this is just practice. You can see that I varied the stick-out and trigger-time.

Last picture is of it sanded down. It lays out well on the contour. I did see that I have two low spots. QUESTION FOR THE GROUP: Is this good enough to leave like this for finishing? Or would I need to weld the low spots and sand down again?

PS: I tried an air saw for the first time and it worked GREAT. Making progress!

 

[leonard_nemoy]

Looking much better. That would be pretty good for at home body work. After grinding you wouldn't need to weld anymore. Filler products should take care of the rest.

 

[GerhardUngerer]

Looking much better. That would be pretty good for at home body work. After grinding you wouldn't need to weld anymore. Filler products should take care of the rest.

What do I need to do to get from "pretty good" to "very good"?

 

[leonard_nemoy]

What do I need to do to get from "pretty good" to "very good"?

Learn to control your heat better and get consistent welds with consistent penetration. You have machine settings and "you" settings which include your gap from electrode to material and speed.


But honestly those welds really are good enough for body work. There is nothing wrong with using fillers and primers to finish it off. There are so many different chemical products for filling gaps and what not. Using the proper products and using them correctly is just as hard or even harder than the welding.

 

[GerhardUngerer]

Learn to control your heat better and get consistent welds with consistent penetration. You have machine settings and "you" settings which include your gap from electrode to material and speed.


But honestly those welds really are good enough for body work. There is nothing wrong with using fillers and primers to finish it off. There are so many different chemical products for filling gaps and what not. Using the proper products and using them correctly is just as hard or even harder than the welding.

Thanks. And treating the back? Just paint with rust spray? Or seam sealer? Or just leave it? there are some blind spots ( like rockers ) where I will not be able to get to the back of the weld. ???

 

[CharlieS]

Weld through primer is an option.

 

[GerhardUngerer]

But honestly those welds really are good enough for body work. There is nothing wrong with using fillers and primers to finish it off. There are so many different chemical products for filling gaps and what not. Using the proper products and using them correctly is just as hard or even harder than the welding.

If I repaired all the rust spots like this, would a paint shop be able to finish and paint? Or would I be wasting my time and theirs?

 

[leonard_nemoy]

If I repaired all the rust spots like this, would a paint shop be able to finish and paint? Or would I be wasting my time and theirs?

Honestly I don't know that much about auto body. But I think it would be very smart of you to find a body shop to finish it after you do the rust repair patches.

 

[Malleus]

On the topic of rust protective coatings on the 80, I recently acquired the european "new car features" manual for the 80 series. In German unfortunately, but you can translate it in real-time with Google lens. It has a couple of relevant pages which detail exactly what Toyota did in terms of rust prevention:
View attachment 3383070
View attachment 3383071
So yeah, multiple zinc/iron alloy layers used with different properties depending on the panel location.

This information is in the collisionrepair manual for the 80 series in the Resources section. The collision repair manual for the 100 series, also in the Resources section, has more detailed information on general repair techniques, especially welding, sealing and rust prevention.