Valve Gasket and Crank Seal Questions (1 Viewer)

[bcolvin]

I just got the new to me cruiser home (230K on the engine and most parts original) and I getting ready to start working on the car. I am new to working on vehicles but I am eager to learn. Two of my first projects that I am going to tackle are a valve cover gasket and a crank seal as both seem to be leaking.

A few questions before I dive in are:

1) How can I be sure it is a crank seal that is bad or could it be the oil pan gasket? Is there anything that gives an indication of one over the other? It leaks about a 6" puddle once fired up or driven around. Here's a picture of the area leak. I am planning on scrubbing down the entire area to get a better look in the next day or so.

2) Supposing that it is a crank seal/front main seal are there other items that should be addressed during this process? The previous owner years ago did a nice job taking care of the basic maintenance but over the past 4 years ago kind of let the car go.

3) When shopping for the gaskets for both the crank seal and the valve cover gasket there looked to be multiple options. Are there preferences on these?

Thanks for any advice and I could totally be wrong on all of my diagnosis of the car so feel free let me know what you think.

 

[Michael Hanson]

Hi, Get Toyota gaskets. All are probably leaking. Learn on the side cover gasket first. Look at Posers post on changing gaskets.. Go slow and take your time. Mike

 

[Gretsch]

It leaks about a 6" puddle once fired up or driven around.

Welcome to the madness. You don't mention what year or model so I'll assume FJ60 with the 2F engine. Based on the puddle on the ground I guess I would lean towards crank seal. Right there in that area there is a real seal sandwich where many gaskets all come together. Hard to say whats leaking for sure but I would guess you are in it for at least the timing cover gasket/crank seal. The oil pan bolts are notorious for coming loose so maybe make sure those are tight. The lower timing cover bolts actually need to be sealed when put in with thread sealer to prevent oil from leaking. Lots can go wrong right there. Maybe like you said cleaning things up would reveal better where the leak is. Having said all that I am not sure I would start here by trying to pinpoint what is leaking. If none of the gaskets have been replaced in the life of the vehicle, then they are all due for replacement. From your photo your truck seems to be leaking oil from everywhere. So starts your journey. Again, welcome to the madness.

I would suggest getting OEM gaskets through Toyota. Whatever perceived minimal cost increase there might be with going OEM will be worth it for not having to re-do work because of buying junk. Just get OEM where possible. Your Cruiser deserves it.

To get the timing cover/crank seal replaced, you need to remove the crank pulley. I think thats hard if not impossible with the radiator in place. Most times you need a puller to get the pulley off and I don't think the radiator in the way allows you to do that. In my old age I prefer to simply get stuff out of the way rather than going through the hassle of working around it. So with the radiator out, you could then think about water pump, thermostat, hoses, etc. And so it goes.

When I did this work, I also tackled the water pump and hoses, the timing cover gasket, the crank seal, thermostat, had the radiator hot tanked, new fan and fan clutch, all new belts, all together. Got down to basically where the whole front of the engine was accessible. All that is by no means required, but its not a bad time to tackle it and made for easy access. Again, if any of that is original, 30+ years says its time to replace. These Cruisers are a real 'while you're in there' situation.

Here's an idea of how the crank seal and timing cover goes together:

You'll do yourself a favor to get the PDF of the Toyota FSM. Some folks have download links to it in their sig lines, although some of those are drying up these days. Congrats on the Cruiser, GL and HTH.

 

[cps432]

Congratulations on the cruiser!

The valve cover gasket is easy. As long as you don’t over torque the nuts and snap one of the studs it’s really straight forward.

On the other hand....

The timing cover gasket and front main are a beast of a job for a newbie. There is a lot of disassembly that has to happen just to get to the gasket. The coolant drained, radiator and fan removed. Grill removed.... etc. lots of bolts and brackets and dirty hoses.

Once you get to the timing cover you need a big socket to remove the crank nut. 36mm if I recall. You also need a massive breaker bar or some other method of breaking that thing loose. Then you need a torque wrench that will give you high torque values from ~150-300ft pounds or something like that. You also need some pullers to remove the harmonic balancer from the crank shaft. And most of all you need lots of patience.

What really sucks is when you do all this research, buy all the tools and parts and spend all the time doing the job just to have it leak again immediately. It’s been about two years since I did that job and I’m about to dive back in this weekend I believe.

All that being said, it’s not something that is out of the scope of accomplishing for your first major auto repair. Just know what you’re getting into and have a solid plan with all your parts and tools. Jeeeeze the tools. Have those before you start....

If these gaskets and seals are leaking it’s likely that everything else is at that point too. Consider doing everything at once.
Consider changing the radiator, water pump, and thermostat. Change the coolant hoses while everything is drained and anywhere possible use OEM gaskets. If Toyota doesn’t carry them from the dealer check out cruiseroutfitters.com They usually have everything you need and their customer service is impeccable. Just ordered from them last week.

 

[g-man]

Front main seal seems to be a 5 banana job and not for the faint of heart or newbies. If you attack this I'd highly recommend (as mentioned above) that you download a FSM specifically the 1980 2f engine manual here:

For Sale - 40, 50, 60, and 80 series FSM for a hell of a price.

read through all the disassembly info BEFORE starting.. I think the bolts need to be kept in order...ie longer and shorter timing cover bolts. (disclaimer: I have NOT done this repair)

The valve cover gasket is a one banana job. The hardest thing is getting the air cleaner off which will be the hardest air cleaner you ever removed. you will memorize by heart after doing it several times

Before you tear into this, it may be a good idea to spray everything down with some parts cleaner...aka brake cleaner, blow off with compressed air and try to pinpoint the leaks.

 

[NearJetties]

I’m a newbie and recently attacked the timing cover gasket and crank seal while doing a water pump and cooling system refresh. Being a newb it took a long time and investment in tools.....and it started leaking again almost immediately ugh/fml.

I probably nicked the crank seal installing it or didn’t get a good seal on the cam cover (the old gasket was literally petrified on—gasket scrapper was barely cutting it)...or both.

if you’re game wait to do it with the cooling system stuff/water pump. 75% of the job is getting in there. 20% is the crank bolt. The rest is the actual seal itself which is a 1-2 banana job. It’s getting to it that’s hard.

Edit: this was on a 62 which is a bit more annoying to disassemble because of the belt setup.

 

[Gretsch]

I think the bolts need to be kept in order...ie longer and shorter timing cover bolts. (disclaimer: I have NOT done this repair)

The best tool you can get for this is the FSM @g-man offered.

They do need to be kept in order. They are of different lengths and because of the way the front engine plate is arranged, they need to be shorter or longer depending on where the engine block falls behind the plate. The FSM details this pretty well. There is a graphic in there I actually printed out and used on a bit of cardboard to store the bolts where they go on the timing cover to keep them oriented in the proper position.

Another tidbit here which I see folks get turned around on a lot, is that when you go to put the timing cover back on. you put it on the engine with the bolts just finger tight, then you put the pulley on, and once thats set and the pulley nut torqued, you then tighten down the timing cover bolts. The act of putting pulley on the crank positions the cover and crank seal to allow for proper sealing. The pulley has a snout on it that wedges into the crank seal, which in turn moves the cover in the proper position. If the timing cover is tightened down when this is done, it can cause the seal to be off center and not completely seal around the pulley snout, thus causing a leak. Be sure to put sealer on the two lower cover bolts, and maybe spray some brake clean in the holes to remove an oil out of them so the sealer sticks. Timing cover bolts are torqued in inch pounds, except I think for the two lower ones which may be foot pounds, so if you don't have a torque wrench that does that or goes low enough, you will need to add this tool to the list. Also you will need some way to keep the pulley/crank from moving while you torque the pulley nut down. There is an SST for this but I used an AC compressor pulley tool for this. Lots of guys make them. Again FSM details all this.

This is a ton of work, no doubt. But reading through the FSM on how to do this and keeping things organized is key. This was one of the first jobs I tackled on mine when I got it, and while there were probably more suitable jobs for me to start with, it taught me a lot about working on these beasts. I put all bolts and parts in little labeled ziplocks and when finished everything went back where it came from. No shame in having this take a long time if the result is a leak free truck.

The link for the FSM @g-man provided is the key to the whole deal. Follow that to the letter and you will be fine. I didn't get the impression you were a complete noob when it comes to working on cars in general so this can be done. Take a look at @NeverGiveUpYota's build thread to get a feel for what can be accomplished. If you need some courage have a tromp around in there for a bit.

GL and HTH.

 

[NearJetties]

To keep the timing cover bolts in order (they do vary in length) use a sheet of cardboard, draw a timing cover on shape on it and push the bolts through the cardboard in order as the come off. Make sure it’s oriented right, note your first bolt well and which hole it corresponds to and make sure they won’t fall out of the cardboard and you’re golden.

I did the same for the water pump.

 

[diesellibrarian]

If you decide to start with the valve cover gasket, which is a much easier job, you might as well do a valve adjustment while you're in there, since it is probably due. Again, find and download the Factory Service Manual and it will walk you through it. Lots of threads in this forum as well.

 

[bcolvin]

Hi all this is good stuff. I appreciate the information. This is a 1984 FJ60. Engine runs great but these leaks will need to be addressed. The advice all of you gave is awesome.

A couple of follow up questions:

For the factory service manual downloads I was able to locate the 1984 - 1990 manual. The 1984 I own was made in June and I know there were some differences post October. So how different is the late 1984 - 1990 manual than the earlier FJ60 model? Would this make any difference in the projects I am undertaking?

Also I am fond of having the actual manual, I'm a bit old school. Is SOR the only place that carries these or do you recommend another place. On SOR the manual was around $175 or so.

As far as the banana rating system goes, what is the range? Would you say from 1-10 or 1-5? Either way I like bananas so I will be getting after it.

 

[OSS]

= checking the oil level
= removing the camshaft

 

[NeverGiveUpYota]

Come now! Removing the camshaft was a piece of cake!
And eBay is a good place to keep an eye out for the actual books.

 

[3_puppies]

And eBay is a good place to keep an eye out for the actual books.

the wife found a set at a garage sale last year for $5.

 

[g-man]

Since you only have 3 messages in your profile I assume you are new here. One piece of advise is to search mud before asking questions. The search box in the upper left corner doesn't work that great since the last system upgrade. Best to do a google search ...for example "replacing 2f front seal ih8mud" or "fj60 front seal replacement ih8mud" also in the 60 forum above the yellow line are "sticky" threads. check out the FAQ and Video threads.

Here is a list of FSM that I suggest you download. I keep mine in a separate folder in my download files.

1980 2f motor
1981 2f emissions control (the smog stuff and how to test it)
1983 fj60 electrical wiring diagrams
1984-90 body and chassis
1985 body and chassis supplemental
1986 maintenance

 

[g-man]

So how different is the late 1984 - 1990 manual than the earlier FJ60 model?

This FSM looks identical to the 1984 body and chassis manual except that in the trollhole downloads the latter version has much better images of the electrical schematics at the back of the manual.

 

[Seth S]

The MUD search tool isn’t the best. But if you go to Google and just type “FJ60 ______________” where __________ is the topic you are interested in. Usually the first results are mud forum threads.

 

[bcolvin]

Thanks for the info. I have been using the google search most of the time and it has been taking me to MUD. That is how I stumbled upon this place a year or two ago when I was getting serious about a Cruiser. Right now I am going through the projects that are more of NEEDS and creating a list of tools and parts. Hopefully in the next couple weeks I can start tackling a few of these and getting the Cruiser up to a "reliable" state.

 

[bcolvin]

After some serious weekend degreasing it is apparent that you all are spot on. Definitely seems that many different seals/gaskets are leaking (rear main, oil pan, crank, valve cover etc) However, the big issue is around that crank seal/front end which is leak is heavy when the car is moving. My thoughts are now leaning towards pulling the engine/trans and using one of the overhaul kits like this one at cruisercorps. Although this takes my 5 banana job up a few more bananas does this seem like a reasonable plan and the right kit? I now own the 2F manual and another book on rebuilding engines which gives me a little more of a sporting chance. Time to start acquiring tools... which I definitely don't mind! Thanks again for taking the time for all of the tips and suggestions .

 

[cps432]

After some serious weekend degreasing it is apparent that you all are spot on. Definitely seems that many different seals/gaskets are leaking (rear main, oil pan, crank, valve cover etc) However, the big issue is around that crank seal/front end which is leak is heavy when the car is moving. My thoughts are now leaning towards pulling the engine/trans and using one of the overhaul kits like this one at cruisercorps. Although this takes my 5 banana job up a few more bananas does this seem like a reasonable plan and the right kit? I now own the 2F manual and another book on rebuilding engines which gives me a little more of a sporting chance. Time to start acquiring tools... which I definitely don't mind! Thanks again for taking the time for all of the tips and suggestions .

You don’t need to pull the engine out to change those gaskets and seals. Unless you’ve got a leaky head gasket or a bad leak behind the timing cover plate I don’t think there’s any reason to pull things out of the truck. There’s lots of space to work in the engine bay. I’ve done all this before and it’s pretty straight forward once you have the manual. It’s just messy and time consuming. I don’t want to think about how many hours I spent working on that engine bay. I changed every bit of rubber hose and gasket in there.

 

[bcolvin]

Thanks for the advice. That is good to know. I appreciate it.